Ashara Dayne's relation to Ned, Brandon, Jon and the Tower of Joy

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

What do you think were exactly the relations that Ashara Dayne had Ned and Brandon Stark, the two Starks suspected to have been in an affair with her, and with Jon Snow with her also being suspected of being Jon's mother ? 

If she isn't Jon's mother then what do you think could be her ties and relation with the Tower of Joy, other than Arthur being her brother and having died here ? What do you think were her connections and interactions with both Elia Martell and Lyanna Stark ?

Could she be the one, if it isn't Arthur, who told Rhaegar about the tower of joy and to hide with Lyanna here ? Could she know about the prophecy that prompted Rhaegar to do the things he did that led to the rebellion ?

[Corvo the Crow]

Eddard took a fancy, she may or may not have took a liking to him as well. Regardless of her feelings toward him, Eddard Stark was a very good catch for her. He is the second son of a Lord Paramount both in line to inherit the region of the North and was going to get his own lands and castles (as per his words to Bran that he and Rickon will get castles and lands). House Dayne is a famed house but only for their sword and the knights that wield it. They are one of the weaker principle bannermen of the weakest region on the mainland.

Allyria, whose name reminds of Lyarra, is not the aunt of Edric “Ned” Dayne whose nick is same as Eddard “Ned” Stark’s, but his cousin, being daughter of Ashara and a Stark.

[John Suburbs]

Ned was too shy to ask her to dance, so Brandon did it for him, and they had one dance together. And from that people turned it into a torrid love affair that produced a child and ended in tragedy.

And yet, when Ned is in the black cells miserating over all the regrets in his life, and in particular the promise at the ToJ and all the events that led up to that point, not once does his mind fall on this love of his life who he supposedly betrayed so badly that she took her own life.

Sorry, but call me skeptical.

The relationship between her and Elia is that Ashara's family is vassal to Elia's, and she became Elia's lady in waiting either before or after the marriage to Rhaegar. Her relationship with Lyanna was virtually nil.

She had little to no relation with the ToJ. The story is that it was one of Rhaegar's private places when he wanted to get away from things and write songs, but we can't even be sure if that is true.

There is no connection between her and the prophecy, and there is no real evidence that Rhaegar did any of the things people say he did or had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance at all. The source for this whole tale, which most readers believe is half-a-lie already, comes from a single unknown person who spilled it to Brandon on the kingsroad. Not one person, living or dead, says they saw Rhaegar and Lyanna together at any time after Harrenhal.

So Ashara's involvement in all of this is basically a cover story that Ned allowed to fester to make people think they know who Jon's mother was, when in reality it was Lyanna -- and despite his non-involvement in her disappearance, Rhaegar is still probably JJon's father nonetheless. It's complicated.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Ned was too shy to ask her to dance, so Brandon did it for him, and they had one dance together. And from that people turned it into a torrid love affair that produced a child and ended in tragedy.

And yet, when Ned is in the black cells miserating over all the regrets in his life, and in particular the promise at the ToJ and all the events that led up to that point, not once does his mind fall on this love of his life who he supposedly betrayed so badly that she took her own life.

Sorry, but call me skeptical.

The relationship between her and Elia is that Ashara's family is vassal to Elia's, and she became Elia's lady in waiting either before or after the marriage to Rhaegar. Her relationship with Lyanna was virtually nil.

She had little to no relation with the ToJ. The story is that it was one of Rhaegar's private places when he wanted to get away from things and write songs, but we can't even be sure if that is true.

There is no connection between her and the prophecy, and there is no real evidence that Rhaegar did any of the things people say he did or had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance at all. The source for this whole tale, which most readers believe is half-a-lie already, comes from a single unknown person who spilled it to Brandon on the kingsroad. Not one person, living or dead, says they saw Rhaegar and Lyanna together at any time after Harrenhal.

So Ashara's involvement in all of this is basically a cover story that Ned allowed to fester to make people think they know who Jon's mother was, when in reality it was Lyanna -- and despite his non-involvement in her disappearance, Rhaegar is still probably JJon's father nonetheless. It's complicated.

He doesn't think too frequently about his father and brother either. Perhaps he didn't like them that much, who knows? This doesn't mean much. 

As for Ashara and Jon, It is obvious that Ashara originally was planned as a red herring, having purple eyes so that she could be a possible mother for Jon, who as a dragonseed (or Targaryen since there's precedent for them having more than one wife) would have purple eyes. Somewhere along the road Jon's purple eyes were scrapped but Ashara kept them and to this day people insist that Daynes are Valyrian, despite their house being twice as old as the land of the sheep fondling incest spwan, Valyria, some go even as far as claiming they(along with Hightowers) are remnants of Great Empire of the Dawn which is a subject that wasn't even touched in the main series and only added in world book, being mostly there for flavor and perhaps to draw some parallels and foreshadowing.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Ned doesn’t think about her much because it was a young passionate love, snuffed out before it could truly blossom. Whereas his relationship with Cat is established, long, and full of love. Plus, what happened to her and him was probably traumatic and not pleasant to remember. Like he stops himself from thinking about Lyanna.

Personallt, I think Ned and Ashara were a thing, I don’t see Brandon, as horndogged as he was, nailing the girl his brother fancies. I think Ned would think of Brandon more negatively if he had. He may still love Brandon, but their undoubtedly would be a sourness to his memory of Brandon had he slept with Ashara.

The only other option for who was Ashara’s lover other than Ned and Brandon, is Howland Reed. And while I love that theory, I doubt it is canon.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Ned doesn’t think about her much because it was a young passionate love, snuffed out before it could truly blossom. Whereas his relationship with Cat is established, long, and full of love. Plus, what happened to her and him was probably traumatic and not pleasant to remember. Like he stops himself from thinking about Lyanna.

Personallt, I think Ned and Ashara were a thing, I don’t see Brandon, as horndogged as he was, nailing the girl his brother fancies. I think Ned would think of Brandon more negatively if he had. He may still love Brandon, but their undoubtedly would be a sourness to his memory of Brandon had he slept with Ashara.

The only other option for who was Ashara’s lover other than Ned and Brandon, is Howland Reed. And while I love that theory, I doubt it is canon.

Definitely this. As I said in an earlier post, Ned was a great catch for Ashara. Ashara is far too beautiful for Ned(or any other for that matter) that's true but these ar nobility and while beauty is good to have, it is not priority when you choose a bride for your son and heir. Ashara was the daughter of a Lord who owns a small portion of the least populous of the heptarchy, Dorne. Dorne is so weak, Doran was only able to send 10.000 to the cause when it was his sister and her children at stake(not their lives but definitely titles, status). Daynes probably fall far behind in power than the likes of say, Karstarks or Boltons, probably on par with likes of Tallharts or Glovers, being slightly better in wealth as living in somewhat better land. Outside of Dorne, no lord paramount would ever marry their firstborn son to her and even the more powerful vassals would be a stretch but a second son, not the heir but the spare would be possible and there, her beauty would really come into play, helping her to get a better choice and Ned was, even though he didn't know it, was the top bachelor around, not only he was second son to a Lord Paramount, very high in line of inheritance, he was, unlike Garlan who's comparable to him in status, going to get his own lands and castle. 

If this was real world, Ashara would definitely be involved with him with marriage on mind. She may or may not have fallen in love with him but Ashara was there to find a husband, my guess is whether because of too much drink, feeling love or pure cold calculation on Ashara's part, they spent the night together and planned to marry. Years later, we learn of another member of the Dayne family, who is, quite coincidentally young enough to be Ashara's daughter and only a few years older than her supposed nephew and yet is her sister and also really coincidentally have a name that resembles Ned's mother's name. What's more is she tells stories about her supposed sister was in love with Ned. Don't know about you, but isn't all this a bit odd?

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Ned doesn’t think about her much because it was a young passionate love, snuffed out before it could truly blossom. Whereas his relationship with Cat is established, long, and full of love. Plus, what happened to her and him was probably traumatic and not pleasant to remember. Like he stops himself from thinking about Lyanna.

But Ned does think about Lyanna quite a bit in AGOT. The only time Ashara comes up in his POV is when Cersei throws her name in his face, which prompts zero reaction from him, internally or externally. There isn’t even an indirect reference when he thinks back on the tourney at Harrenhal.

3 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I don’t see Brandon, as horndogged as he was, nailing the girl his brother fancies. I think Ned would think of Brandon more negatively if he had. He may still love Brandon, but their undoubtedly would be a sourness to his memory of Brandon had he slept with Ashara.

Ned is described as sounding bitter at one point when he says everything was meant for Brandon. He doesn’t think about him a whole lot otherwise.
 

Setting that aside, I think a more relevant point here is that we don’t actually know that Ned fancied Ashara. The line in the text is that Ned was “too shy to leave his bench” which is ambiguous. It could specifically refer to him being too shy to ask Ashara, but it very easily could mean he was just too shy in general to dance and socialize. The fact that he was sitting on a bench at the biggest party of his life sorta points that way IMO.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Ned is described as sounding bitter at one point when he says everything was meant for Brandon. He doesn’t think about him a whole lot otherwise.

We don’t get it from Ned’s POV, but we do from Cat’s.  There was something about Brandon’s memory, “shadow”, that continued to be an issue between them at least in Cat’s mind.

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     She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.
        That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”
        “Perhaps not,” Catelyn said, “but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.

     Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.
        Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

And then there was this also not from Ned’s POV chapter but Arya’s:

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“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born.”

So whatever Eddard thought of Brandon, GRRM is fairly careful to keep us away from Ned’s POV during those moments.

[EggBlue]

Ned and Ashara liked each other , slept together , maybe fell in love and corresponded .  she realized she is pregnant , war happened , he got married , her baby died , anything they once felt for each other likely was overshadowed by the fact that he killed her brother . ... that's all we can almost with certainty get from the text . everything else will go in the category of theories and speculations ... which I'm kinda tired to discuss right now

also , why do people think Brandon had slept with his brother's crush ? honestly, if we can get anything from 2 out of 4 times we hear of Brandon's actions , it's that he was a good brother . 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Ned and Ashara liked each other , slept together , maybe fell in love and corresponded .  she realized she is pregnant , war happened , he got married , her baby died , anything they once felt for each other likely was overshadowed by the fact that he killed her brother . ... that's all we can almost with certainty get from the text . everything else will go in the category of theories and speculations ... which I'm kinda tired to discuss right now/cdn-cgi/mirage/6dc3d3eb1a38505cabd90fb7ffd43995f14702a0df4cf40d6136ae67a48e140e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_idea.gif

also , why do people think Brandon had slept with his brother's crush ? honestly, if we can get anything from 2 out of 4 times we hear of Brandon's actions , it's that he was a good brother . 

I think this for the most part. Though I think despite everything that happened Ashara still wanted to be with Ned. I think she possibly wanted to just run away with him and Jon or something to that effect but Ned wouldn’t because of Catelyn (and Robb, I’m not sure if he knew Cat was pregnant at the time), Ned abandoning her after her brother and all her friend’s death and her miscarriage just sent her over the edge. The pun was unintentional.

[Corvo the Crow]

44 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Ned and Ashara liked each other ,

This one I'd not be sure with the Westeros being what it is, I do believe Ashara took a liking to Ned because of what Ned(Dayne) tells us, but at first it may have been because she was out in the market for a husband.

 

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slept together , maybe fell in love and corresponded .  she realized she is pregnant , war happened , he got married , her baby died ,

Think again  We are never given her age but hints are there that shows us Allyria is around the right age to be Ashara's daughter.

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"I'll get you with child as soon as you're able," Joffrey said as he escorted her across the practice yard. "If the first one is stupid, I'll chop off your head and find a smarter wife. When do you think you'll be able to have children?"

Sansa could not look at him, he shamed her so. "Septa Mordane says most … most highborn girls have their flowering at twelve or thirteen."

 

 

Most highborn flower at 12-13, most, but not all.

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"He is no lord," Alys said scornfully. "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle. Uncle Arnolf is only castellan. He's my great-uncle, actually, my father's uncle. Cregan is his son. I suppose that makes him a cousin, but we always called him uncle. Now they mean to make me call him husband." She made a fist. "Before the war I was betrothed to Daryn Hornwood. We were only waiting till I flowered to be wed, but the Kingslayer killed Daryn in the Whispering Wood. My father wrote that he would find some southron lord to wed me, but he never did. Your brother Robb cut off his head for killing Lannisters." Her mouth twisted. "I thought the whole reason they marched south was to kill some Lannisters."

Alys is almost of an age with Jon. Alys is born in 284 or 285 war starts in 298. She was 13-14 when the war started and Robb doesn't immediately call his banners as soon as the war starts with Tywin attacking Riverlands. So I think we can say Alys still hadn't flowered at 14.

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He doesn't like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

"How long have you been Lord Beric's squire?" she asked, to take his mind from his misery.

"He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt." He coughed. "I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings."

 

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

 

Beric was betrothed to Allyria but hadn't married. Why? Only possible reason is that she hadn't flowered yet, for they were betrothed for what? 4 years already at the start of the series. Beric was likely going to marry her upon his return from the tourney, but not marrying before seems to show like Alys, at the start of the war she still hadn't flowered. Since Edric, 13, learns stories of their family from his aunt we can think that there's considerable age difference between the two. GRRM also notes that many husbands would wait till the bride is 15-16. So an Allyria turning 16 around the time of the Hand's tourney would fit to be Ashara's child and also considerably older than Ned to be able to tell her these stories.

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Age of Sexual Relations in Westeros

 

44 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

nything they once felt for each other likely was overshadowed by the fact that he killed her brother . ...

I think Ned killing Arthur didn't have much to do with it as Daynes seem to be quite cool with it, and it's not a story that they tell, however the story of Ned breaking Ashara's heart is told.

Quote

"Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?"

"Her heart was broken."

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?"

He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . ."

"Tell me."

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

 

My take is Ned, may or may not know it but impregnated Ashara, they were going to marry but Brandon died and war broke so he took Brandon's cup that he didn't want. War ends and Ned tells Ashara that he can't marry her because he is now a married man. Ashara probably doesn't tell him about the baby or else, knowing Ned, he would have wanted to take it's responsibility.Ashara, heartbtoken, suicides.

 

Also how funny it is that Ned appoints, unkowingly, his son in law to be as the head of the task force . 

 

 

 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This one I'd not be sure with the Westeros being what it is, I do believe Ashara took a liking to Ned because of what Ned(Dayne) tells us, but at first it may have been because she was out in the market for a husband.

 

Think again  We are never given her age but hints are there that shows us Allyria is around the right age to be Ashara's daughter.

Most highborn flower at 12-13, most, but not all.

Alys is almost of an age with Jon. Alys is born in 284 or 285 war starts in 298. She was 13-14 when the war started and Robb doesn't immediately call his banners as soon as the war starts with Tywin attacking Riverlands. So I think we can say Alys still hadn't flowered at 14.

 

Beric was betrothed to Allyria but hadn't married. Why? Only possible reason is that she hadn't flowered yet, for they were betrothed for what? 4 years already at the start of the series. Beric was likely going to marry her upon his return from the tourney, but not marrying before seems to show like Alys, at the start of the war she still hadn't flowered. Since Edric, 13, learns stories of their family from his aunt we can think that there's considerable age difference between the two. GRRM also notes that many husbands would wait till the bride is 15-16. So an Allyria turning 16 around the time of the Hand's tourney would fit to be Ashara's child and also considerably older than Ned to be able to tell her these stories.

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Age of Sexual Relations in Westeros

 

I think Ned killing Arthur didn't have much to do with it as Daynes seem to be quite cool with it, and it's not a story that they tell, however the story of Ned breaking Ashara's heart is told.

 

My take is Ned, may or may not know it but impregnated Ashara, they were going to marry but Brandon died and war broke so he took Brandon's cup that he didn't want. 

 

 

 

I think Ned and Benjen were specifically sent to the Tourney to find brides. In general I think all the Stark children were sent to the tourney to make political connections for the future with the other houses of the South. Because I do think Rhaegar was planning a coup.

[1000th Lord Commander]

6 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Personallt, I think Ned and Ashara were a thing, I don’t see Brandon, as horndogged as he was, nailing the girl his brother fancies. I think Ned would think of Brandon more negatively if he had. He may still love Brandon, but their undoubtedly would be a sourness to his memory of Brandon had he slept with Ashara.

 

I do. Brandon and Ned were raised in two separate locations, by two different people. While Ned acknowledges Brandon as his brother, he probably feels closer kinship with Robert, since they were raised together.

[EggBlue]

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Think again  We are never given her age but hints are there that shows us Allyria is around the right age to be Ashara's daughter.

Most highborn flower at 12-13, most, but not all.

Alys is almost of an age with Jon. Alys is born in 284 or 285 war starts in 298. She was 13-14 when the war started and Robb doesn't immediately call his banners as soon as the war starts with Tywin attacking Riverlands. So I think we can say Alys still hadn't flowered at 14.

 

Beric was betrothed to Allyria but hadn't married. Why? Only possible reason is that she hadn't flowered yet, for they were betrothed for what? 4 years already at the start of the series. Beric was likely going to marry her upon his return from the tourney, but not marrying before seems to show like Alys, at the start of the war she still hadn't flowered. Since Edric, 13, learns stories of their family from his aunt we can think that there's considerable age difference between the two. GRRM also notes that many husbands would wait till the bride is 15-16. So an Allyria turning 16 around the time of the Hand's tourney would fit to be Ashara's child and also considerably older than Ned to be able to tell her these stories.

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Age of Sexual Relations in Westeros

I might have had this conversation with you before (or maybe it was someone else ) ... all that is fair and well but Allyria's young age does not prove anything . this world is full of huge age differences between siblings ... Baratheon brother , Targaryen siblings , Jaeherys I's children , Martels, Aegon IV's kids are all but a few examples of this and Daynes could just be another one .  besides, it is not given that Allyria and Beric had not married yet because she hadn't had her period yet . we don't know if Dornish marriage age range is the same as the rest of Westeros . Sylva , Ashara and Elia were still single after the age of 20 . and Arianne , the one who complained about it , complained that her father wasn't trying to arrange useful alliances for her rather than the fact that she should be married because she is old . it could easily be the norm in Dorne that women marry in an older age . and that's not just that . Cat and Brandon were also betrothed ever since she was 12 . yet they only arranged the wedding when she was 18. Lyanna too was betrothed to Robert for years and we know that they did not arrange the wedding right after she got her period .  finally, last but not least , if the author wanted to hint that Ashara's daughter survived and lived on as Ashara's sister , he would have had to leave  better clues that do not involve remembering ages and dates . especially that he is not particularly good at dates , timelines or ages . 

 

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think Ned killing Arthur didn't have much to do with it as Daynes seem to be quite cool with it, and it's not a story that they tell, however the story of Ned breaking Ashara's heart is told.

yeah , I kinda think killing her brother totally kills it for her . that's why I'm completely against the Ashara+Howlad theory. lol. 

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

My take is Ned, may or may not know it but impregnated Ashara, they were going to marry but Brandon died and war broke so he took Brandon's cup that he didn't want. War ends and Ned tells Ashara that he can't marry her because he is now a married man. Ashara probably doesn't tell him about the baby or else, knowing Ned, he would have wanted to take it's responsibility.Ashara, heartbtoken, suicides.

Daynes' respect for Ned is curious . I don't buy it that they named their heir after him and told him enough stories about Ned that he'd be interested in speaking with him , just because he dropped down a sword after killing their brother and breaking the heart of their sister who later killed herself ! that's just ... unbelievable ! 

my take is that Ned did not know that she was pregnant and by the time she know and wanted to tell Ned , they were already at war and she decided to wait it out a bit . only to later realize he had married his brother's betrothed . however , there will still be the question of why Daynes have such regard for Ned . I could only imagine he might have had something on them that they could end up like Conningtons losing everything but he let them off the hook and never spoke of it again . I've got some pet theories  

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also how funny it is that Ned appoints, unkowingly, his son in law to be as the head of the task force . 

yeah that would have been funny indeed 

 

46 minutes ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

I do. Brandon and Ned were raised in two separate locations, by two different people. While Ned acknowledges Brandon as his brother, he probably feels closer kinship with Robert, since they were raised together.

so what ? Brandon is the brother who has a routine of riding with his rebellious sister , he's the guy who is ready to duel the crown prince if he thinks the man is hurting his sister . he's the guy who instead of making japes of his younger brother's shyness , steps up to ask for a dance for him himself . this guy doesn't come off as the guy who sleeps with his shy brother's crush just because he wants a good night . 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

18 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

 

 

so what ? Brandon is the brother who has a routine of riding with his rebellious sister , he's the guy who is ready to duel the crown prince if he thinks the man is hurting his sister . he's the guy who instead of making japes of his younger brother's shyness , steps up to ask for a dance for him himself . this guy doesn't come off as the guy who sleeps with his shy brother's crush just because he wants a good night . 

This. And not to sound chauvinistic I hope, but Brandon was a boisterous, handsome, larger than life kind of man. The heir to the entire North, and a bit of a bad boy to boot. He honestly probably had his pick of the eligible ladies at the tourney, and probably of some of the not so eligible ones. Him choosing to bed his shy brother’s crush is just such a dick move, that I don’t see why he would. 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

also , why do people think Brandon had slept with his brother's crush ? honestly, if we can get anything from 2 out of 4 times we hear of Brandon's actions , it's that he was a good brother . 

I don't think being protective of Lyanna is mutually exclusive with sleeping with a girl his brother liked, and he seems like a bit of a fuckboy based on how Barbrey describes him, but that's not my main reason for why I think it's probable he did. I don't think it's at all clear that Ned did have a crush on her, so there's not necessarily any sort of brotherly betrayal at play here.

[EggBlue]

13 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I don't think being protective of Lyanna is mutually exclusive with sleeping with a girl his brother liked, and he seems like a bit of a fuckboy based on how Barbrey describes him, but that's not my main reason for why I think it's probable he did. I don't think it's at all clear that Ned did have a crush on her, so there's not necessarily any sort of brotherly betrayal at play here.

yes , he is a fuckboy and no his protectiveness on its own doesn't say anything about Ned/Ashara situation . but the combination of what we've heard of him suggests that he's the guy who cares for his siblings deeply to the point of being a total moron . his ridings with Lyanna ( not all that lady like) and his general attitude around Barbrey and other lovers suggests that he may encourage a bit of rebellious behavior in his siblings , likely he'd be the guy to encourage Ned to go for it when he's got a crush and even help him by asking for a dance for his brother . as for Ned's crush , I think Howland's tale and Allyria's account are acceptable enough .

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Ned and Ashara liked each other...

We don't know that for sure, though. I know that the Howland/Ashara theory isn't very popular in the fandom, but I definitely think it's possible. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

We don't know that for sure, though. I know that the Howland/Ashara theory isn't very popular in the fandom, but I definitely think it's possible. 

I love the theory, I just think its too out there you know

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

At least how I think it all went down is, Ned and Ashara had a bit of a fling at the tourney. Ned vowed to marry her after, and he would be a good catch for Ashara, who I think did like him, but was probably after his status first. The stuff with Lyanna went down, the war broke out, and Ned had to marry Cat for his own sake as well as to keep the promised Rickard made Hoster. But Ned did not know Ashara was pregnant at the time. Fast forward to the end, Arthur is dead, all her friends are dead, and the father of her child is married to another. Not for love, but for duty. 
 

Either she tells Ned, and begs him to take Jon and run away with her and their unborn child, and he refuses. Or, she doesn’t tell him, so hurt by his marriage and killing her brother, that she just doesn’t. Results the same, Ned rides away, she has a miscarriage, and she commits suicide. And I do think she is dead, not in hiding somewhere. Her body not being found is a red herring.