Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Dany defeated Meereen through finesse and intelligence. 

Seems like Meereen beat Dany given she... ran away and was unable to deal with her problems beforehand.

[StarkTullies]

8 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Dany defeated Meereen through finesse and intelligence. 

Dany defeated Slavers Bay through plot armor and contrivance.  While Dany's chapters in A Game of Thrones and A Dance with Dragons are some of the best chapters in the series (in my opinion), her chapters in A Storm of Swords are some of the worst (in my opinion).  Her takeover of Astapor was clever enough, although it heavily relied on the stupidity of the slavers to not see through her plan.  Her takeover of Yunkai happened off-page because it was so contrived that nothing written would be entirely believable.  She defeated Meereen because her soldiers told the slaves "Rebel against the masters", so they did, but it is entirely unbelievable that in the ancient history of this ancient city, never once did the slaves ever rebel until Dany told them to.  It was like George Martin wanted Dany to take over the entire bay in a very short amount of time but did not want to invest much time or effort in it... which is fine I guess, because Dany's Essos story is largely filler: the main story is in Westeros.

8 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Throwing thousands of his wildling guys at the gate resulted in huge loses.

Well, Mance would have won if Stannis and his army hadn't swept in at the last minute.  If all the armies aligning against Dany at the end of A Dance with Dragons had already converged when Dany arrived in Meereen (and if Dany's plot armor weren't intact), Dany would not have defeated Meereen either.  Dany fled Meereen when things got bad and now Meereen is in a worse state than ever.  (And no, I'm not faulting Dany for her enemies' actions... but your proofs of Dany's great intelligence and finesse at conquering at ruling are faulty).

8 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

He is clever and he very easily outsmarted Jon and Stannis.

When did Mance very easily outsmart Jon and Stannis?

8 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

You see, Mance had to prove he can kick butt better than any other freefolk.

Well that's part of it.  So Mance had to prove he's a good leader rather than just being given the title due to his family name?  That's exactly why he's a good leader.

Edited September 17, 2023 by StarkTullies

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Dany defeated Slavers Bay through plot armor and contrivance.  While Dany's chapters in A Game of Thrones and A Dance with Dragons are some of the best chapters in the series (in my opinion), her chapters in A Storm of Swords are some of the worst (in my opinion).  Her takeover of Astapor was clever enough, although it heavily relied on the stupidity of the slavers to not see through her plan.  Her takeover of Yunkai happened off-page because it was so contrived that nothing written would be entirely believable.  She defeated Meereen because her soldiers told the slaves "Rebel against the masters", so they did, but it is entirely unbelievable that in the ancient history of this ancient city, never once did the slaves ever rebel until Dany told them to.  It was like George Martin wanted Dany to take over the entire bay in a very short amount of time but did not want to invest much time or effort in it... which is fine I guess, because Dany's Essos story is largely filler: the main story is in Westeros.

Well, Mance would have won if Stannis and his army hadn't swept in at the last minute.  If all the armies aligning against Dany at the end of A Dance with Dragons had already converged when Dany arrived in Meereen (and if Dany's plot armor weren't intact), Dany would not have defeated Meereen either.  Dany fled Meereen when things got bad and now Meereen is in a worse state than ever.  (And no, I'm not faulting Dany for her enemies' actions... but your proofs of Dany's great intelligence and finesse at conquering at ruling are faulty).

When did Mance very easily outsmart Jon and Stannis?

Well that's part of it.  So Mance had to prove he's a good leader rather than just being given the title due to his family name?  That's exactly why he's a good leader.

Sometimes people get very lucky in war, like the Crusaders in 1096-99. Robb and Dany did, but the luck ran out, as it always does.

A more plausible military campaign might have lasted months, and involved Dany’s forces overrunning the estates of the wealthy, freeing the fieldhands, and isolating Meereen, and putting it under siege.

I still found her chapters in ASOS great fun, whereas all but the last two in ADWD dragged, for me.  It always seemed obvious to me that the elite Ghiscari were mostly bastards, who should be put to the sword.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:26 AM, StarkTullies said:

Dany defeated Slavers Bay through plot armor and contrivance.  While Dany's chapters in A Game of Thrones and A Dance with Dragons are some of the best chapters in the series (in my opinion), her chapters in A Storm of Swords are some of the worst (in my opinion).  Her takeover of Astapor was clever enough, although it heavily relied on the stupidity of the slavers to not see through her plan.  Her takeover of Yunkai happened off-page because it was so contrived that nothing written would be entirely believable.  She defeated Meereen because her soldiers told the slaves "Rebel against the masters", so they did, but it is entirely unbelievable that in the ancient history of this ancient city, never once did the slaves ever rebel until Dany told them to.  It was like George Martin wanted Dany to take over the entire bay in a very short amount of time but did not want to invest much time or effort in it... which is fine I guess, because Dany's Essos story is largely filler: the main story is in Westeros.

Daenerys defeated the slavers because she is a lot smarter than they are.  Her victories at Astapor and over the Titan's bastard are genius level.  Something beyond the abilities of lesser leaders like Jon Snow and Robb Stark.  Choosing Belwas to fight Oznak shows incredible good judgment on the part of Daenerys.  Those victories were well-earned and well-deserved. 

Talk about Sansa and Arya if you want to talk filler material.  Even Jon Snow's story is only a setup to prepare for Daenerys to arrive in Westeros and save what's left of the kingdom. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Daenerys defeated the slavers because she is a lot smarter than they are.

Daenerys defeated the slavers because she has magic horsemen and magic flying lizards (later in her story).

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Daenerys defeated the slavers because she has magic horsemen and magic flying lizards (later in her story).

Daenerys defeated the Slavers because of plot armour. This is also why she isn't sent straight to the Dosh Khaleen, doesn't die of essential fatty acid deficiency in the desert like Doreah, survives the HotU and assassination attempt in Qarth, the Slavers act dumb enough that he trick works, etc.

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

survives the HotU

Imma nitpick a bit and say at least the House of the Undying wasn't too much about plot armor. The wizards should know better than to let a live dragon into their lair, even if it's not much better than a hatchling.

By the time she claims the Unsullied, the dragons are grown big enough that the sheer stupidity of the slavers counts as plot armor.

[sifth]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Daenerys defeated the slavers because she has magic horsemen and magic flying lizards (later in her story).

The person is a grifter.

Don't feed the troll.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

By the time she claims the Unsullied, the dragons are grown big enough that the sheer stupidity of the slavers counts as plot armor.

Pretty much. You've got to be a complete idiot to sell your entire army to someone. It's like selling a diamond in the desert, for a new gun. The person you give the gun to, is just going to shoot you and take the diamond back.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

The person is a grifter.

Don't feed the troll.

It's not like he gets his posts deleted for grifting.

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Pretty much. You've got to be a complete idiot to sell your entire army to someone. It's like selling a diamond in the desert, for a new gun. The person you give the gun to, is just going to shoot you and take the diamond back.

Basically this. Astapor also literally sits in a desert, lol. The slave owners must have grown complacent to miss some basic fact of life.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Pretty much. You've got to be a complete idiot to sell your entire army to someone. It's like selling a diamond in the desert, for a new gun. The person you give the gun to, is just going to shoot you and take the diamond back.

Actually, from the Slavers’ POV, Dany’s actions are inexplicable.  They expect her to take up their own very sensible suggestion of sacking cities, and selling them the survivors.  They never expected her to destroy them, because she needs Astapor as a market, just as the Dothraki do.

They never expected her to change the rules of the game.

Gun sellers don’t expect to be shot by their customers, because they anticipate repeat business.

Edited September 23, 2023 by SeanF

[SaffronLady]

50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

because she needs Astapor as a market, just as the Dothraki do.

Even going by this logic, she only needs a slave city as a market. Like Meereen. Nothing in her circumstances explicitly requires the survival of Astapor.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Actually, from the Slavers’ POV, Dany’s actions are inexplicable.  They expect her to take up their own very sensible suggestion of sacking cities, and selling them the survivors.  They never expected her to destroy them, because she needs Astapor as a market, just as the Dothraki do.

They never expected her to change the rules of the game.

Gun sellers don’t expect to be shot by their customers, because they anticipate repeat business.

Ignoring what Dany did for a second, why in the world would anyone with 1/10th of common sense sell, their entire army? Even if Dany didn't turn the army on them, so many other threats could arise before a new Unsullied army could be created. A young Dotraki Kal, could choose to sack them just for shits and giggles, a sellsword army who felt they were being underpaid and so on and so on. Nations need armies or they don't remain nations for very long.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

31 minutes ago, sifth said:

Ignoring what Dany did for a second, why in the world would anyone with 1/10th of common sense sell, their entire army?

Is it really their army, though? They're just salespeople. I've always looked at it as a car dealership, in which they're not selling their cars.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Is it really their army, though? They're just salespeople. I've always looked at it as a car dealership, in which they're not selling their cars.

So who's army is it? I always thought those slavers, were the ones who ruled the city.

[StarkTullies]

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Daenerys defeated the slavers because she is a lot smarter than they are.

Daenerys defeated the slave masters in Astapor because she is smarter than them... not because she was exceedingly smart, but because the slave masters were exceedingly stupid.  And their stupidity is part of Dany's above-mentioned plot armor.

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Her victories at Astapor and over the Titan's bastard are genius level.

So when the Titan's bastard (whom Daenerys did not recognize) approached her in the open to assassinate her, and Barristan kills him when Daenerys would otherwise be killed, that makes Dany a genius?????

If you are talking about Dany's victory at Yunkai, it was contrivance.  She easily won at Yunkai because Daario Naharis switched sides, not because of anything "genius" that Dany did or said but because "she was beautiful" (or so he said), and because of plot armor.  All of this happened off-page while "Arstan" was telling stories of Westeros... because nothing written about how easily Yunkai was defeated would have been believable.

Dany's ASOS chapters are easily some of the worst chapters in the entire series (still good, just the "least good").  George Martin didn't put much effort in writing Dany's victories; he just made them happen without investing in it.  This has nothing to do with my general dislike of Dany's character; I think her chapters in the other books (particularly AGOT and ADWD) are great.

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Choosing Belwas to fight Oznak shows incredible good judgment on the part of Daenerys.

Belwas was a one-on-one pit fighter, and Dany considered him expendable and didn't care if he lived or died.  Labeling this as "incredible good judgment" is an incredible stretch to say the least.

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Talk about Sansa and Arya if you want to talk filler material.

We'll have to see when (if) the books are completed to confirm which subplots are relevant and which aren't.  But Sansa is in the Vale (which is relevant to the main plot) and with Petyr Baelish (who is relevant to the main plot).  I agree that Arya's chapters in Essos (only 5 so far) are likely filler other than her character development.  However, unlike Dany's chapters in Essos, Arya's Essos chapters haven't introduced many new characters or subplots peripheral to her own personal Faceless Man journey.

I love Dany's filler, but filler it is.  Will the identity of the Harpy have any impact on the main story?  Not likely.  Will Hizdhar, Reznak, the Green Grace, etc. matter one tiny bit after Dany leaves them behind in Essos (if they are still alive)?  No.  The primary purpose of the Meereenese knot is to develop Dany's character, but with the exception of her acquisition of the Dothraki and dragons, all of the extra subplots and characters are filler.

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Even Jon Snow's story is only a setup to prepare for Daenerys to arrive in Westeros and save what's left of the kingdom. 

Are you suggesting that in the 5 books where the plotline mostly takes place in Westeros, those chapters are nothing but an enormous prologue of a ruined continent for an outside character to sweep in and save them?  What a wretchedly terrible story this series would turn out to be if that was the case, but fortunately it isn't.

Edited September 23, 2023 by StarkTullies

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Ignoring what Dany did for a second, why in the world would anyone with 1/10th of common sense sell, their entire army? Even if Dany didn't turn the army on them, so many other threats could arise before a new Unsullied army could be created. A young Dotraki Kal, could choose to sack them just for shits and giggles, a sellsword army who felt they were being underpaid and so on and so on. Nations need armies or they don't remain nations for very long.

Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?  The Masters survive by being useful to both sellers and buyers, and are adept at bribing the khals.

A lot of polities that could have been crushed by more powerful states, have survived by making themselves useful to them.

Sacking Astapor is a one-off gain.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

I always thought those slavers, were the ones who ruled the city.

But not necessarily with the help of the unsullied, who are still considered slaves at the end of the day. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[sifth]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?  The Masters survive by being useful to both sellers and buyers, and are adept at bribing the khals.

A lot of polities that could have been crushed by more powerful states, have survived by making themselves useful to them.

Sacking Astapor is a one-off gain.

Still doesn't answer why a state would willingly give up it's only means of the defense. The world is filled with many people willing to sack a city, just for the hell of it, especially in George's world.

[Son of Man]

Jon Snow was the worst leader ever to lead the watch. The only reason to include Jon in any discussion of leadership is as a cautionary tale of what happens when an incompetent son of a noble lord is given a position for which he was obviously not qualified.  Jon is another Weymar.  An arrogant young man with more bravery than brains who ignored the advice of smarter people.  Dany usually weighs advice carefully and generally chooses the right decisions.  Dany is the better leader.