Should We Suspend our Disbelief a bit more?

[Gilbert Green]

13 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

These things do happen, though. Turnip is described as a boy in ACoK and then as a girl in the appendix of that very same book.

Such things may indeed happen.  But once again, you have found a poor example. 

Turnip is a girl child, who dresses in boy's clothes, engages in boyish activities, and has an androgynous nickname.  So Bran, who maybe does not know her that well, assumes she is a boy.

The series has a semi-subjective POV structure.  What the POV perceives as true is not necessarily true.  This is just another clue/warning of that.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sandor has only one missing ear.  Depending on circumstances, it can be concealed by long hair, or by a helm with open visor, or by a mail hood, or by seeing his face from the wrong angle.

I thought it was two, and the poor Hound had his ears clipped like the fighting dog he is. I might be wrong.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

And now, Sandor is not the only character with half a face.  Another such character is Brienne.  And even before her injury, she was said (mainly in jest, but it could be a clue as well) to resemble Sandor.  Jaime called her "the Hound with teats except she has no teats".

The parallels are very intriguing...

Any mistaken identity will be short-lived though, because the shoulder to hip ratio will be different.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

That is not how I read the text.

My reading is simply that she looks away whenever she sees him, and Sandor notices.  This evidence of revulsion hurts his feelings and makes him angry. 

That's what I think too. Plus, ugliness has it's fascination, same as beauty.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

Thus, the enraged "turning away" charge (which is what he actually says at first).   We see no "peeping" in Sansa's POV.  When Sandor forces Sansa to look at his face, his face is described in her POV as if she is seeing it for the first time.  She looks because she has no choice, and what she sees makes her cry.  Sandor understands her reaction perfectly.  "No pretty words for that, girl?  No pretty complement that septa taught you?"

Shortly after, Sandor refers to this "looking away" as "peeping", as in "I'm sick of your peeping".  He does not interpret them as endless lust-filled glances.  If he did, he would not be so angry. 

A peep isn't a flirtation (obviously, obviously) - it's a quick glance. And yes, it would be incredibly irritating.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I'm not trying to enrage the San San crowd, and I'm not ruling out any future ironic twists in their relationship.  All I am saying is that currently their relationship is not a good one.  She really is afraid of him, and this upsets him and makes him angry and causes him to lash out at her.  Which of course only makes things worse.  That's basically the story so far, and anything else (if anything) is for the future.

This debate could go on forever, and I've got to say, the 'SanSan crowd' have written much better material than the other side (who mostly go, waaagh!!!)

[Gilbert Green]

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I thought it was two, and the poor Hound had his ears clipped like the fighting dog he is. I might be wrong.

He has only one injured ear, though he did injure it twice, once to Gregor's fire, and then a sword blow took what remained.

 

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The parallels are very intriguing...

Any mistaken identity will be short-lived though, because the shoulder to hip ratio will be different.

Well, that all depends.  Over time, a man can plausibly lose upper-body mass, and maybe even grow a bit chunky around the middle.  And metal armor can do much to conceal a man or woman's shape.  I'm not predicting that Sandor will lose upper-body muscle or get chunky around the middle - merely that Brienne (who is also very broad shouldered, at least for her sex) in heavy-metal armor will not necessarily be obviously-not-Sandor.

How long it takes Sansa or any other POV character to get a close look at these characters out of armor is purely up to the author.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

What GRRM said

That's not really what he said. (I'll try to find the ssm video but no promises). He specifically said he wrote the color changes by the attire, except he never wrote that in any asoiaf.

(It's a fact that in asoiaf Dany and Egg and others use clothing to enhance their regality or to hide it. )

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's not really what he said.

I'm confused. It is a report of what he said from a reliable source. Unless you are talking about a different comment he made.

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm confused. It is a report of what he said from a reliable source. Unless you are talking about a different comment he made.

Its on YouTube. Heard it from his own mouth.

(Which I also have a huge problem with and why I tend to take SSMs with less then a pinch of salt. I'd be last man to say he isn't brilliant, but his strengths lie in thinking and taking his time to present the near perfect result. It's why he writes so fucking slow. But when he's speaking off the top of the head to some nerdy ass congregation (many with Twilight like loyalty for their perspective houses) some things may slip that may turn out to not be what he wished to present. Especially as SSMs are taken under a microscope and taken as scripture when the only words of truth are those printed in asoiaf and d&e (give or take an unkiss and colored contact lenses)

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Its on YouTube. Heard it from his own mouth.

Which comment? That one or a different one?

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Which comment? That one or a different one?

I don't remember the exact wording. Probably lots of "uhhs" and light chuckles. But same concept. (paraphrasing)"Eye color changed from one book to another, so i wrote that was justified by the change of lights/clothing "

[Gilbert Green]

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't remember the exact wording. Probably lots of "uhhs" and light chuckles. But same concept. (paraphrasing)"Eye color changed from one book to another, so i wrote that was justified by the change of lights/clothing "

Bottom line is:  the text remains the same.  No errata has been issued.

If these supposed discrepancies were a clue to something, we would hardly expect him to say.  "Ah, okay, you got me.  Now let me explain to you all the spoilers to all my evil plans."

[Ran]

He flips it around, of course, and yes, he states the "solution" was that he "wrote" that in fact Renly had blue-green eyes, but what I think he obviously really means is that his solution had Renly lived was to make some note to that effect that they're actually blue-green and can look differently based on what he's wearing, lighting, whatever.

But he died, and GRRM hasn't found cause to have anyone reflect on the color of Renly's eyes. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Such things may indeed happen.  But once again, you have found a poor example. 

Turnip is a girl child, who dresses in boy's clothes, engages in boyish activities, and has an androgynous nickname.  So Bran, who maybe does not know her that well, assumes she is a boy.

The series has a semi-subjective POV structure.  What the POV perceives as true is not necessarily true.  This is just another clue/warning of that.

What do you make of Nymeria Sand having pale skin in Feast and olive skin in Dance?

[Ran]

Pale skin and olive skin are not contradictory, since olive is an undertone. While we tend to think of it as a "medium" skin tone, people with pale olive skin do exist.

[Gilbert Green]

10 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What do you make of Nymeria Sand having pale skin in Feast and olive skin in Dance?

She must have been exposed to the sun.  Olive skinned people can be very pale -- if they avoid the sun..

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

45 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Olive skinned people can be very pale -- if they avoid the sun..

It's quite difficult to avoid the sun in Dorne, though.

 

54 minutes ago, Ran said:

Pale skin and olive skin are not contradictory, since olive is an undertone. While we tend to think of it as a "medium" skin tone, people with pale olive skin do exist.

Ah, okay, maybe you're right.  Although the way it's worded on the wiki makes it seem contradictory:

"Areo Hotah describes Nym as having pale white skin in A Feast for Crows, but mentions her olive skin in A Dance with Dragons".

[Gilbert Green]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's quite difficult to avoid the sun in Dorne, though.

For poor people who have to work, sure.  For rich people, not so much.  Doran, for example, has no trouble avoiding the sun.  That may be a bad example, since Doran is an invalid; but on the other hand Nym may be more vain than Doran.

But she may be leading a more active lifestyle since her father died - practicing her spearwork, etc., instead of shading her skin under broad rimmed hats to protect her milk-white beauty.  She may prefer helmets, now.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

He flips it around, of course, and yes, he states the "solution" was that he "wrote" that in fact Renly had blue-green eyes, but what I think he obviously really means is that his solution had Renly lived was to make some note to that effect that they're actually blue-green and can look differently based on what he's wearing, lighting, whatever.

But he died, and GRRM hasn't found cause to have anyone reflect on the color of Renly's eyes. 

Thank you, Your Grace. 
Its also clear hes joking here, and while the greatest jokes are steeped in truth, its not always the complete truth.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

For poor people who have to work, sure.  For rich people, not so much.  Doran, for example, has no trouble avoiding the sun.  That may be a bad example, since Doran is an invalid; but on the other hand Nym may be more vain than Doran.

But she may be leading a more active lifestyle since her father died - practicing her spearwork, etc., instead of shading her skin under broad rimmed hats to protect her milk-white beauty.  She may prefer helmets, now.

I thought Obara was the spearwoman and Nym was the knife expert.

[Gilbert Green]

42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Obara was the spearwoman and Nym was the knife expert.

Well sure.  The long loose robes that protect her skin from the Dorne sun are also useful for hiding daggers.

But she leads a group of mounted spearmen, so it seems plausible to me she is also proficient with that weapon.  One does not normally use daggers when fighting from horseback.

[Gilbert Green]

22 hours ago, Ran said:

Pale skin and olive skin are not contradictory, since olive is an undertone. While we tend to think of it as a "medium" skin tone, people with pale olive skin do exist.

Well, it is hard to be sure what exactly "olive skinned" means.  No Mediterranean I have ever seen looks like an olive to me.  But it does seem to imply someone a bit darker than is typical for a more-northern European and/or having a tan that it at least somewhat different in tone than the sort of tan more-northern Europeans typically get.  There is an implication of a vaguely greenish cast, which is also implied by the phrase "well bronzed" (bronze being greenish) as applied to someone with a particularly deep tan.

It is hard for me to reconcile "olive skin" with "milky-white skin" simultaneously.  Unless maybe if the milk has alot of cream in it, giving it a tinge of yellow. 

But there do exist persons of Mediterranean heritage who are simultaneously very fair of skin, and yet capable of tanning easily.  I have no trouble believing that Nym is one such person, and could be milky white some months before and "olive skinned" some months later.

Similarly, Doran Martell is never described as olive skinned, unlike several of his close relatives.  Which makes sense, as he is an invalid whose servants plausibly keep him perpetually well shaded.

The idea that olive skin is an "undertone" seems to have more to do with the make-up industry than anything else.  But I could be wrong.  I'm not a make-up expert, nor am I a dermatologist.

[Groo]

43 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Well, it is hard to be sure what exactly "olive skinned" means.  No Mediterranean I have ever seen looks like an olive to me. 

But I could be wrong.  I'm not a make-up expert, nor am I a dermatologist.

Whether you meant these as jokes or not, both of these had me laughing. I was finding this whole skin-tone thread tedious, but this made it worthwhile. Well played, sir. Well played.