Is the Wall just a barrier? What may be its secondary purpose, if any?

[Sandy Clegg]

Coming off the back of a puns/wordplay re-read, I was reading the Bran chapter where the Reeds describe the sigil of Theo Wull (known interestingly as just The WullI, rather similar to 'the Wall') as being 3 buckets on a blue background, bordered with white/grey. The Wull's nickname was also "Buckets". Reading this as a bit of 'Wall' symbolism, could it be implying that the Wall is itself not merely a barrier, but also a container? At the end of ADWD we see Jon looking through the cavernous food stores underneath the wall, which also bring to mind Wall-as-container imagery. Does the Wall contain spells which prevent Others from crossing? Or is it something buried deep within the Wall which contains the magic that wards them off?

[LongRider]

Jon is unable to warg or even feel the presence of Ghost when the wolf is north of the Wall.  Yet many fans, myself included, believe Bloodraven can skinchange Mormon't Raven from the cave of CotF. hmmm

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Coming off the back of a puns/wordplay re-read, I was reading the Bran chapter where the Reeds describe the sigil of Theo Wull (known interestingly as just The WullI, rather similar to 'the Wall') as being 3 buckets on a blue background, bordered with white/grey. The Wull's nickname was also "Buckets".

Maybe Wull is related to the Wall in terms of a container, haven't really thought about  that. The buckets align with "well," so that's the wordplay I've been considering, wull / well. We know babies were thrown down wells and suspect the act to have been a sacrifice in some cases. Hugo Wull (known as Big Bucket) is said to have the biggest belly in the northern mountains, reminding me of pregnancy and babies. That he's also willing to die fighting for Ned's little girl can be interpreted as a sacrifice he's happy to make. Big Bucket could be a reference to a big belly or a large baby, an especially worthy sacrifice. It would not surprise me if the northern clans still uphold these ancient rites. 
So that's my reading on the wull/bucket combination. 

But Wall / wull works too if we look at members of the NW in terms of sacrifices to ensure the safety of the realm. Or the "bucket" as a means of retrieving or activating the magic buried in the Wall. Patchface's crown is made up of a bucket fixed with antlers and bells, thus the bucket could be connected to royalty and / or to horned god symbolism (and we know sacrifices were made to the darker aspect of Garth the Green). 

ETA - if wull/wall/well are a thing connected to sacrifice and buckets are symbolic babies, we do have a baby at the Wall at this point in time. Craster's blood could be royal. Perhaps his son will have to be sacrificed to activate the deeper magic of the Wall. 

[LongRider]

15 minutes ago, Evolett said:

ETA - if wull/wall/well are a thing connected to sacrifice and buckets are symbolic babies, we do have a baby at the Wall at this point in time. Craster's blood could be royal. Perhaps his son will have to be sacrificed to activate the deeper magic of the Wall. 

Gilly said the Others come for the babies because they have "the stink 'o life' about them.  The baby has been hunted by wights at Whitetree, north of the Wall already. Coldhands saved the baby along with Gilly and Sam.  Was saving the baby now known as Monster part of his errand?  What about the sending the baby through the magic Black Gate? 

Now Val who perhaps is a healer has named the baby, Monster.  What's in a name?   

[Sandy Clegg]

25 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Hugo Wull (known as Big Bucket) is said to have the biggest belly in the northern mountains, reminding me of pregnancy and babies.

This is one of George’s favourite tricks isn’t it - linking concepts together via names and analogy. Buckets and bellies get linked via this name above, and  buckets and wall/wull likewise. Which in turn links walls/bellies by one removed association. 1 - 2 -3.
 

I think this is (partly) what George means when he says he plants seeds as a gardener-style writer. Forging potential associations via names and sigils, etc. We might see these seed-associations bear fruit in future books, or possibly not. But it’s definitely a technique he likes to employ. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

It’s true purpose is to protect the Others and Wildlings from the evil Starks

[Craving Peaches]

I think the true purpose of the Wall is tax evasion. If you live Beyond the Wall, you can't be taxed. That's why all the Wildlings are there.

[sweetsunray]

19 Craster wives (19 corpse queens), 19 forts at the Wall, 19 dragon skulls.

It's warded with spells same way as the walls of Storm's End (it's one of the reasons that George wrote that Bran the Builder was involved in the building of both the Wall and SE). Shadows cannot pass - not shadow assassins, not white shadows, not wights or ghouls, and dragons cannot fly over. So, basically neither magical fire nor ice creatures can pass.

fire worms and (ice) spiders mutters Dolorous Edd. Everlasting bloody war between the acolytes of the spider goddess and the serpent god. Others and dragons are mortal enemies of one another, bent on destroying one another, and the realm of men gets squashed in between. It's meant to separate these two opposing magical eternal enemies.

It has one other use: the Others use it as a spyglass to spy on the NW, who's coming, who's going. Ice = eyes

ETA: the NW does not sacrifice babies to the Others. The guy who did that at the Wall was the NK, a few centuries after the LN. When Brandon the Breaker Stark and Joramun discovered he committed human sacrifice, they considered it such a foul thing they obliterated his name from history. (So much for FM and old gods followers being human sacrifice fans millenia ago)

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

19 Craster wives (19 corpse queens), 19 forts at the Wall, 19 dragon skulls.

The Quran has the 19 angels of Hell. 19 angels that guard Hell, aka “angels of punishment", the "Guardians of Hell", "wardens of hell", "angels of hell”. 

 

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

fire worms and (ice) spiders mutters Dolorous Edd. Everlasting bloody war between the acolytes of the spider goddess and the serpent god. Others and dragons are mortal enemies of one another, bent on destroying one another, and the realm of men gets squashed in between. It's meant to separate these two opposing magical eternal enemies.

This duality of the Wall's power is hinted at in the structure of the Wall itself:

Quote

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. 

 

4 hours ago, LongRider said:

Coldhands saved the baby along with Gilly and Sam.  Was saving the baby now known as Monster part of his errand?  What about the sending the baby through the magic Black Gate? 

My feeling is baby Monster and Jon Snow are the sacrifices of opposing parties placed at the Wall. Jon's blood has already been shed and I fear Monster will share the same fate.

4 hours ago, LongRider said:

Now Val who perhaps is a healer has named the baby, Monster.  What's in a name?   

Val is the one who advocates killing children who have suffered greyscale, as we see with her opinion on Shireen.  It suggests she wouldn't hesitate to eliminate a child, even a baby, if she discovers him to be dangerous in some way.
We've already seen the Wall acting as a barrier to dragons and skinchanging, as pointed out above. If the sword and the snake are symbols representing the spider goddess and the serpent god (or opposing forces of ice and fire for those who don't believe in ancient tales), deactivating the anti "sword" and "snake" magic may be the purpose of the sacrifices of Jon and Monster at the Wall. Both are symbolically "smuggled" to take up their positions at the Wall. Jon of fire heritage (Lyanna's wolf-blood is also a fire property, imo), "disguised" as a Stark associated with the icy North and little Monster, designated as a sacrifice to the icy Others, smuggled through the Black Gate with the help of Sam and Coldhands. Together, their blood may bring down the Wall, no Horn of Joranum needed. 

[sweetsunray]

38 minutes ago, Evolett said:

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. 

A sword striking at a dragon via a mirror shield: Serwyn

[Kienn]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:14 AM, LongRider said:

Jon is unable to warg or even feel the presence of Ghost when the wolf is north of the Wall.  Yet many fans, myself included, believe Bloodraven can skinchange Mormon't Raven from the cave of CotF. hmmm

Nah Jon just can’t feel Ghost for most of SoS, whether he’s north of the Wall or not.

Read the end of CoK and the start of SoS. Killing Qhorin is what broke Jon’s warg connection.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Kienn said:

Nah Jon just can’t feel Ghost for most of SoS, whether he’s north of the Wall or not.

Read the end of CoK and the start of SoS. Killing Qhorin is what broke Jon’s warg connection.

The not sensing Ghost is from when he sends Ghost away before climbing the Wall. It's the magical ward. Because Ghost knows where Summer is (the cave), but often cannot sense him there either (not when Summer is inside). The cave is warded the exact same way as the Wall and Storm's End.

BR and Bran aren't stopped by the Wall's ward, because the weirwood roots can go underneath the Wall in the soil, and therefore use the weirnet to see and skinchange from there.

Jon can't, because he's a skinchanger.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

It's just a barrier but it blocks physically as well as telepathically.  People don't want to risk getting mind controlled.   The Starks have this power and the people who find out will push them to the other side of the wall. 

[Kienn]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The not sensing Ghost is from when he sends Ghost away before climbing the Wall. It's the magical ward. Because Ghost knows where Summer is (the cave), but often cannot sense him there either (not when Summer is inside). The cave is warded the exact same way as the Wall and Storm's End.

BR and Bran aren't stopped by the Wall's ward, because the weirwood roots can go underneath the Wall in the soil, and therefore use the weirnet to see and skinchange from there.

Jon can't, because he's a skinchanger.

Nah, Jon fails skinchanging for the first 4 chapters of SoS (before he crosses the Wall).

He even crosses north to parlay with Mance during their battle and remarks how he misses Ghost.

Compare that to late CoK:

“Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness.”

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Kienn said:

Nah, Jon fails skinchanging for the first 4 chapters of SoS (before he crosses the Wall).

He even crosses north to parlay with Mance during their battle and remarks how he misses Ghost.

Compare that to late CoK:

“Even when they were apart, Jon sensed his nearness.”

He seems to be pretty well aware where Ghost is in the first two chapters, even when he's out of sight behind the column during the day. I don't see your claim for the first 4 chapters. At best there's Jon's observation that Ghost is gone the morning of the climb across the Wall.

The parlay with Mance is chapter X. Which seems an oddity. It's possible though that BR skinchanges Ghost to guide him and preserve him (keep him getting killed in the battle with Stannis). Ghost was  "kept" away until the right time, by the author and perhaps BR. And then there's Jon's connection to the Wall from the moment they're about to climb. He starts to "bond" with the Wall from then on. I doubt the Wall would make his wishes come through about shaking off some climbers, if it considered him a traitor.

[Sandy Clegg]

I think it’s clear that the Wall is a barrier, both physically and somehow magically. My original question was about a separate function, i.e. as a container for something buried within the ice. The Wall acting as a barrier would be a perfect ‘cover story’ for this other function, if Bran the Builder needed to keep something on ice for thousands of years before it is needed  - for the battle against the Great Other, for example. Not saying there’s an ice dragon inside, but perhaps something big. And useful in a big battle. And needed to be hidden all this years. 

[sweetsunray]

I don't see any hints for something buried within, but many that the Others can use the ice as a spyglass.

I also think that that it can be skinchanged. We have a Wall dream of Jon's that Bloodraven interrupts roughly with a gnarled hand, in which Jon is armored in black ice. We witnessed BR wake up Jon too from a wolf dream by whispering snow as a moon, except here BR is rougher and goes a stretch further to wake him up, and Mormont's raven glares at him after. We have Bran's vision of Jon turning icy. The dream itself seems to have little ties to current timeline reality, but who knows what a magical Wall sees, thinks or dreams about. And IIRC Jeor too had strange ominous warning dreams.

Jon considers ordering spyglasses, but it seems he's gaining the ability to use the biggest spyglass of all. Instead of a greenseer, he becomes a bit of an ice-seer.

No wonder we get so many "Lord Snow has changed" remarks. Skinchangers do not only alter the animal to be more like them, but also gain characteristics of the animal. I presume it would be similar if it's a magical ice Wall.