Evolett Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 57 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: @Evolett, Craster is an abomination of a human being in most everyone’s book. Is there a blood debt so huge that he owes someone? Maybe. But his sacrificing his sons doesn’t have anything to do w/ that imo. He tells his wives/daughters (and the free folk know about it, as do some in the NW) that the sacrifice of their sons is not only necessary but essential to their survival, but I think it’s all a tale he made up. After all, he does sacrifice animals as well, as has never had a problem b/c of that. His sacrifice of his male offspring is, imo, a way for him to be rid of future competition/foes - either for the women or, one hopes, boys that will grow up and kill him. Just my 2p. There are many possibilities. For all we know he's simply projecting his father's rejection of him onto his sons. I do find it a bit odd that the freefolk tolerate his practices within their territory though. Even the Targs as a royal family faced opposition because of the incest they practiced but the wildlings who can be quite militant just let him be. Ygritte's mention of the heavy curse Craster bears suggests they know more than they're willing to voice out openly. Well, we'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Yeah, that's silly. Everyone knows Daario is Robert Baratheon. The resemblance is there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: I always thought they needed the boys to make more Others. That's always been a theory among some readers, but I don't recall it being a a widely accepted until the show. Since then even readers who are going only on book-canon for these discussions on this forum are much more likely to have had the idea implanted in their head before they started the books. I wouldn't normally ask if you were book-first or show-first, but now I am curious because I think it is relevant to this theory. Was the text of the book alone enough to make you independently think the boys become Others? Its not a theory for which I've ever been on board. I think the Others are their own thing; other, inhuman. Transmuted humans don't have that alienness IMO. The glimpse we saw of the Other in the AGoT prologue gives me a sense of them as having their own culture and a cruel sense of humour. Leaving Crasters settlement as one of the last remaining - because the scared & superstitious people inside thought sacrifices would save them - seems to fit the character of the Others. I'm also sceptical on a timeline and logistics aspects. Craster is an old man, he has been living that lifestyle decades. He was exposing his sons long before the threat of the Others started to reawaken. Ridding himself if the boys could only have been repurposed to providing a sacrifice when the cold rises in the last few years. Then how many boy children were born? He has 19 wives but that includes the old decrepit ones. If he has had sacrificed enough boys that turning them into Others would make a noticeable increase in their ranks then the Others are a far weaker threat than I had ever envisioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 11 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said: I wouldn't normally ask if you were book-first or show-first, but now I am curious because I think it is relevant to this theory. Was the text of the book alone enough to make you independently think the boys become Others? I didn't watch the show until after I read all the books, and I never reached the point in the show where it was revealed. It was something someone on here said that I thought was a good theory, I think it was The Black Crow, about how the Others were being held together with magic and dragonglass disrupts this, which is why they melt/disintegrate. Which would suggest they have an artificial origin. I don't think they are transmuted humans though, I still think they are their own 'thing', just artificially made. It would serve as a nice parallel with the dragons who are also supposedly 'artficially' made by breeding Firewyrms and Wyverns. Both elemental extremes would be unnatural. But they 'lost' the process of making themselves so they need the boys. Alternatively the boys are used to make special 'intellegent' wights rather than Others. I mean one of the wives says that 'the Sons' are coming. So I think it would be a bit anti-climatic if they were just eaten or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Alternatively the boys are used to make special 'intellegent' wights rather than Others. The only intelligent wight I can think of is Cold Hands. He's presented, by being dressed in blacks, as a former member of the Night Watch. That does not prove he is, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Yeah, that's silly. Everyone knows Daario is Robert Baratheon. Which is also the only merling in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I didn't watch the show until after I read all the books, and I never reached the point in the show where it was revealed. It was something someone on here said that I thought was a good theory, I think it was The Black Crow, about how the Others were being held together with magic and dragonglass disrupts this, which is why they melt/disintegrate. Which would suggest they have an artificial origin. I don't think they are transmuted humans though, I still think they are their own 'thing', just artificially made. It would serve as a nice parallel with the dragons who are also supposedly 'artficially' made by breeding Firewyrms and Wyverns. Both elemental extremes would be unnatural. Interesting. I don't think I'd be on board for that theory; I think the obsidian works because it is anti thetical to the very nature of the Others (and because there is a narrative requirement for impervious beings to have a kryptonite). But it's not a theory I've come across before so would be curious if you have a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said: But it's not a theory one come across before so would be curious if you have a link. I'll have a look for you but it may not be until tomorrow because I can't remember exactly where I saw it and it is quite late in Scotland. Here it is: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/160961-the-resurrection-and-tragedy-of-jon-snow/&do=findComment&comment=8839856 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said: I wouldn't normally ask if you were book-first or show-first, but now I am curious because I think it is relevant to this theory. Was the text of the book alone enough to make you independently think the boys become Others? As a person who watched season 1 first(where this doesn't take place) then read all the available books before the second season, I never got on board with sons being turned to Others theory, however it isn't a show only thing though, it is also mentioned in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 In the show it was owned as canon, in the books it was the belief of a few superstitious and frightened women. Bit yeah, good reminder that it is a theory every reader is presented with in the books rather than devising later - even if we were given reasons to be skeptical about their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Buried Treasure said: In the show it was owned as canon, in the books it was the belief of a few superstitious and frightened women. Bit yeah, good reminder that it is a theory every reader is presented with in the books rather than devising later - even if we were given reasons to be skeptical about their beliefs. The theory book-wise is mostly based on that "the sons" coming of aSoS. But imo it's just these poor women's hope that their sons were taken to be turned into Others. They allowed Craster to do this for years. It's normal that they would cling to some belief that their sons served to be Otherized instead of being meat (the same purpose as the sheep and dogs). And who knows, perhaps these Others have got some of the mimicked features of a younger Craster... a sort of cruel thank you to the food provider, making him believe he is godly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 The debt, if one exists, is owed by the fathers of the Others. What I mean by this is the debt owed by the Starks. Preston J has a video where he claims that the bastard gate is a door through which unwanted babies are taken through and thrown out. The Stark bastards are unique because they can become Others. Just like Craster’s sons. Craster is related to the Starks. The Others are the bastards of the Starks. What if these bastards want a piece of the North? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 Where’s my eyeroll reaction option so that I don’t have to do this: https://tenor.com/QLc2.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 31 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said: The debt, if one exists, is owed by the fathers of the Others. What I mean by this is the debt owed by the Starks. Preston J has a video where he claims that the bastard gate is a door through which unwanted babies are taken through and thrown out. The Stark bastards are unique because they can become Others. Just like Craster’s sons. Craster is related to the Starks. The Others are the bastards of the Starks. What if these bastards want a piece of the North? Starks are illegal aliens coming from the dark side of the moon. They dance naked under the moonless sky, hop to their spacegalleys and find wildling women to plant their seeds(actual seeds, from weirwoods) then like a cat marking it’s territory, they pee everywhere because their urine has special properties that serve as a chemoattractant to Others. Others are coming from the hollow of Planetos, ancestors of Starks dug too deep and too greedily and woke the Others. Starks being inhuman(remember they are lunatics - lunar people) they experimented on the poor others and weaponized them. Oh on their planet wide discovery flights they also ran into a type of Lemur and thought how funny it would be to turn them into humans but that are heavily compelled to incest. They had a good laugh on it and performed genetic alterations on them. However they were disgusted with their creation so in order to never see them, gave them an affinity to fire, because they have themselves an affinity to cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Starks are illegal aliens coming from the dark side of the moon. They dance naked under the moonless sky, It's amazing what can pick up on the rereads! Blue ribbon analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Starks are illegal aliens coming from the dark side of the moon. They dance naked under the moonless sky, hop to their spacegalleys and find wildling women to plant their seeds(actual seeds, from weirwoods) then like a cat marking it’s territory, they pee everywhere because their urine has special properties that serve as a chemoattractant to Others. Others are coming from the hollow of Planetos, ancestors of Starks dug too deep and too greedily and woke the Others. Starks being inhuman(remember they are lunatics - lunar people) they experimented on the poor others and weaponized them. Oh on their planet wide discovery flights they also ran into a type of Lemur and thought how funny it would be to turn them into humans but that are heavily compelled to incest. They had a good laugh on it and performed genetic alterations on them. However they were disgusted with their creation so in order to never see them, gave them an affinity to fire, because they have themselves an affinity to cold. Still makes more sense that 'Craster is a Stark'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, LongRider said: It's amazing what can pick up on the rereads! Blue ribbon analysis. I know. On my third reread I was amazed to discover that Ned was, in fact, a Secret Targaryen! How did I not see this before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I know. On my third reread I was amazed to discover that Ned was, in fact, a Secret Targaryen! How did I not see this before? I picked it when I noticed how Benjen and Lyanna was... close. They are for sure Targaryens and Jon is Benjen's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Night Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 I think Craster is the key to solving the mystery of the modern Others. Both the seasoned forester Dywen and the wildling Ygritte refer to him as being black of blood. Quote Dywen told Grenn he's got black blood in his veins. Quote Craster's blood is black and he bears a heavy curse. Quote Let [the cold winds] rise. My roots are sunk deep. Quote My son. My blood. You think i'd give him to you crows? the cursed bloodline is perhaps why the wildlings don't steal his daughters, though it would be so easy to do so. Interestingly, almost every description of blood as black in the books is in reference to death. below are a few examples: Quote The silent sisters were stripping the dead men of their armor and clothes. All the bright dyes had leached out from the surcoats of the slain; they were garbed in shades of white and grey, and their blood was black and crusty. Quote Khal Drogo thrashed, fighting some unseen enemy. Black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound. 'Your khal is good as dead, Princess.' Quote When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. the only two characters who were serving in the Nights watch around the time of Craster's inception and are still alive during the current events of the books are Bloodraven and Maester Aemon. Both of them would know the identity of Craster's father and perhaps the mystery of his bloodline. the following events could be mere coincidences or they could be not: Bloodraven elected as Lord Commander (239 AC) Craster conceived and born (Circa 240 AC - Circa 250 AC) Bloodraven disappears beyond the wall (252 AC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Night Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 Quote Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t’ his Wall. She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. There are many clues in this fairly short quote. 1. Quote Craster’s more your kind than ours. What is Jon's kind to Ygritte which he has in common with Craster? He is a southerner, a bastard and a stark, but not a crow. Quote Ygritte had looked so angry he thought she was about to strike him. 'All of us,' she said. 'You too. You’re no crow now, Jon Snow. I swore you weren’t, so you better not be.' 2. Quote She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son At first glance this is an incomprehensible action of a wildling woman. Yet a deeper look reveals a mother in despair, asking for refuge for her child beyond the reach of the cold gods, much like Gilly did. Quote “Where?” asked Sam, puzzled. “Where should I take her?” “Someplace warm,” the two old women said as one. Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife...Please, ser crow. He’s a boy...If you don’t take him, they will.” 3. Quote the brothers blew their horns and run her off. One blast is for a brother returning, two blasts for a wildling attack, three blasts signal the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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