I don't understand the point of being so vehemently anti-Stark

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Wait, am I not the only Catelyn-stan on this forum! I also love Catelyn as a character.

On a depressing note, I watched a youtube video recently where they dissected Catelyn from a psychological perspective, and one thing the youtuber kept saying was how Catelyn always expects something bad to happen. What made me sad is the youtuber was clear that this is not normal. The reason I never thought of Catelyn being particularly morose or negative in this way is.....it's how I think. I always expect things to go wrong, and I never realized that isn't how EVERYONE thinks. It could explain why others don't like Catelyn so much, while I find her relatable and good hearted.

Also, I think if anyone bothered to listen to her advice, things would have gone better for them. A lot of fans focus on her few questionable decisions, and not on how many times she advised people to do things, that had they done those things, stuff would have gone better for them (not sending Theon is a huge one). 

The silliest argument is that Catelyn is to blame for the war.  That, and Catelyn the Monster who was a terrible mother.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't think they hated the Starks at first, when they read the books (if they even did). Rather, they are Dany stans who watched the show, are disappointed with the way it ended, and are taking it out on the characters they blame for ruining Dany's arc.

So the assumption is most Stark haters are Dany-stans. That's interesting. I didn't watch the later seasons of the abomination, so I think that makes no sense to me (as Dany and the Starks have never interacted in the books nor the seasons of the show I did see). I guess Dany does group Eddard in with Tywin, even when Barristan defends him. Daenerys feels kind of removed from Westeros in the books. Even when she tries to imagine Westeros, she always ends up thinking of the red door in Braavos. Her primary antagonists have consistently been Essosi not Westerosi. Even in the one case where someone from Westeros attacked her (Robert's assassination attempt), it was a relatively minor antagonist compared to Mirri Maz Dur and the Khalasar plot lines. I guess I know she will eventually go to Westeros, but sometimes it feels like that will never come to pass, lol. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

31 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

and I feel like in the Expanse the villains do feel like they have a shot of messing things up. 

 

YO, another Expanse fan?!

What's your favorite ship and faction? Mars, Earth, beltalowda?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

YO, another Expanse fan?!

What's your favorite ship and faction? Mars, Earth, beltalowda?

I guess I am boring, I just like the main ship (Rocinante) lol. My favorite characters in the show were Amos and Prax. In the books…hmm probably Bobbie so far (but ive only read the first three books, i watched the show to completion). 

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I guess I am boring, I just like the main ship (Rocinante) lol. My favorite characters in the show were Amos and Prax. In the books…hmm probably Bobbie so far (but ive only read the first three books, i watched the show to completion). 

The Roci's a fine ship, though if it has the keel mounted railgun, it makes me wonder why Mars didn't install it on their own frigates. 

Amos is always "that guy" and Prax is sweet. Bobbie is the GOAT. Do you like Mars, Earth or the Belt in the show?

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean if nothing else, one of the fun aspects of A Song of Ice and Fire, is the fact that the villains actually stand a chance at winning. When I read other stories, I really never expect the villains to win any major victories. 

Allow me to introduce you to Warhammer 40k, where everything is consistently a "win" for the Big Bad ... even if individual characters devolve into jokes.

[Jaenara Belarys]

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Allow me to introduce you to Warhammer 40k, where everything is consistently a "win" for the Big Bad ... even if individual characters devolve into jokes.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The Roci's a fine ship, though if it has the keel mounted railgun, it makes me wonder why Mars didn't install it on their own frigates. 

Amos is always "that guy" and Prax is sweet. Bobbie is the GOAT. Do you like Mars, Earth or the Belt in the show?

None. Lol. I think both in the show and the books, it is obvious that the authors believe that big state governments and corporations make bad decisions that don't benefit the majority of human beings. I like...the individual people surviving in these societies, but the governments themselves might as well be the US, Japan, and Afghanistan (i bet you can guess which one is Afghanistan, lol). And much like in real life, it is mostly corporations pulling the strings that these governments are making decisions based on. I guess I like the people/political leaders suing for peace instead of war (regardless of which faction they fight for). Oh, speaking of peace, in the third book, I unexpectedly loved Anna (book Anna was way better than show Anna) and Clarissa's story was more compelling than it had been in the show as well. 

A random note : The most horrifying thing I learned while reading the Expanse is the experiments done on the children with the protomolecule and stuff was based on a real life group of scientists during WWII. They worked for Japan and were known as Unit 731. I don't want to put spoilers here for people who haven't read the Expanse, but I think the authors made a decision specifically because they didn't like that most of the scientists that worked for Unit 731 went completely unpunished, due the US government buying the research from the Japanese government following their surrender. Essentially...a lot of the horrible things that happen in the Expanse are based on real life events in our recent history, and it is horrifying. A note for everyone : Unit 731 did things that are on par with, or even are more horrifying than what happenend in the Holocaust. The reason you don't learn about it, and do learn about the Holocaust, is the US bought the research and didn't punish the criminals. It would make the US look bad if this information was widely taught in schools (so it is forgotten in most Western countries). 

[SaffronLady]

2 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

A note for everyone : Unit 731 did things that are on par with, or even are more horrifying than what happenend in the Holocaust. The reason you don't learn about it, and do learn about the Holocaust, is the US bought the research and didn't punish the criminals. It would make the US look bad if this information was widely taught in schools (so it is forgotten in most Western countries). 

And as an added insult to all people who had relatives die in their torture centers/concentration camps, Japan maintains a literal shrine for the people who established and sponsored Unit 731 in the first place.

But then, there are so many other war crimes committed by people who haunt the Yasukuni Shrine it may as well be a counter-checklist for international law regarding crimes against humanity.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

And as an added insult to all people who had relatives die in their torture centers/concentration camps, Japan maintains a literal shrine for the people who established and sponsored Unit 731 in the first place.

But then, there are so many other war crimes committed by people who haunt the Yasukuni Shrine it may as well be a counter-checklist for international law regarding crimes against humanity.

I mean the US has a bunch of statues for people who fought a war to keep slavery going, so I think one reason Western countries have trouble looking at Japan in a negative light...is then they would have to look at their own history as well. Japan is essentially an honorary Western country. Yeah, you did colonialism. So did we! Yeah, just pretend it didn't happen, we do, too. 

[SaffronLady]

18 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yeah, you did colonialism crimes against humanity, up to and including wholesale genocide. So did we! Yeah, just pretend it didn't happen, we do, too. 

FIFY.

Though I think I should try to get the topic back to Westeros before I suffer the Ranhammer.

Come to think of it, how does the North control its island territories if Brandon "the Burner" burned their entire fu-king navy? 

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

There are people that consider Targaryens colonialist, how could you colonize a continent with 3 individuals? 

A colony requires a mother country.

They were imperialists, but so were their rivals.

[SeanF]

47 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean the US has a bunch of statues for people who fought a war to keep slavery going, so I think one reason Western countries have trouble looking at Japan in a negative light...is then they would have to look at their own history as well. Japan is essentially an honorary Western country. Yeah, you did colonialism. So did we! Yeah, just pretend it didn't happen, we do, too. 

Mao, Stalin, Trotsky, Genghis Khan, likewise have a big fanbase.  

Probably it comes down to far fewer Allies fighting in the East than in the West.  Even in the West, there were organisations more vile than the SS, which are much less notorious.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Mao, Stalin, Trotsky, Genghis Khan, likewise have a big fanbase.  

Probably it comes down to far fewer Allies fighting in the East than in the West.  Even in the West, there were organisations more vile than the SS, which are much less notorious.

 

I don’t think Ghengis belongs on your list, lol. He is from a time period fairly removed from the modern era, and his empire was based on models mostly phased out of modern political thinking. Even if people do like Ghengis, it’s more in the historical way, not a modern “I want my state to act like Ghengis” way. 

As to Mao, Trotsky, and Stalin; their fanbases are far overblown and they receive little praise in mainstream left wing communities. This is in stark contrast to the colonialist period, imperialism, etc, which is almost entirely whitewashed in most Western countries’ (and Japan’s) public education. No one in Western countries is whitewashing Mao, Stalin, or Trotsky. As a history undergraduate, one of my professors quite literalky gave me a lower score because I DIDN’T put personal bias against Mao in my essay (which he himself taught me I shouldn’t do). My history thesis was comparing Mao to Qin Shihuangdi in case you are interested, another totalitarian tyrant. I thought my essay DID paint a negative picture of both leaders, but I guess he wanted a paragraph praising capitalism since that was a necessity for him in all eassys). 

Did you know. @SeanF, that people can be against ALL totalitarian states? Problem is widespread consensus IS against the leaders you mentioned, while excusing/whitewashing the crimes I talked about. Get the difference? That any left wing proposals are dismissed as “communist” when they are in no way communist in the US (or even Korea where I lived)? That the red scare has left modern Western people literally unable to talk about anything left of center without getting accused of loving Stalin. It’s ridiculous. Stop comparing apples and oranges. Shedding light on capitalist atrocities doesn’t mean people stan Stalin. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I don’t think Ghengis belongs on your list, lol. He is from a time period fairly removed from the modern era, and his empire was based on models mostly phased out of modern political thinking. Even if people do like Ghengis, it’s more in the historical way, not a modern “I want my state to act like Ghengis” way. 

As to Mao, Trotsky, and Stalin; their fanbases are far overblown and they receive little praise in mainstream left wing communities. This is in stark contrast to the colonialist period, imperialism, etc, which is almost entirely whitewashed in most Western countries’ (and Japan’s) public education. No one in Western countries is whitewashing Mao, Stalin, or Trotsky. As a history undergraduate, one of my professors quite literalky gave me a lower score because I DIDN’T put personal bias against Mao in my essay (which he himself taught me I shouldn’t do). My history thesis was comparing Mao to Qin Shihuangdi in case you are interested, another totalitarian tyrant. I thought my essay DID paint a negative picture of both leaders, but I guess he wanted a paragraph praising capitalism since that was a necessity for him in all eassys). 

Did you know. @SeanF, that people can be against ALL totalitarian states? Problem is widespread consensus IS against the leaders you mentioned, while excusing/whitewashing the crimes I talked about. Get the difference?

I was thinking more about their home countries.  

There’s a tendency for people to praise past brutal leaders on the basis, “You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs”, or “at least they got things done.”

People who make towers of skulls get more praise than people who invent medicines.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

“You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs”

"Making the mother of all omelettes here Jack, can't fret over every egg."

It has to be this way is my favorite boss fight theme, sorry for meme-ing.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

mainstream Western left wing communities

You're welcome.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Qin Shihuangdi, another totalitarian tyrant.

The literal first emperor of China was most totally not totalitarian since it would be two thousand years before the concept appears.

Having a bureaucracy does not make you totalitarian, though it does make you less feudal (probably why the Targ kings have such an underdeveloped bureaucracy, to not displace the traditional noble houses of Westeros too much).

 

[sifth]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Allow me to introduce you to Warhammer 40k, where everything is consistently a "win" for the Big Bad ... even if individual characters devolve into jokes.

I thought Warhammer 40k was a board game? Is this a novel series as well?

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

So the assumption is most Stark haters are Dany-stans. That's interesting. I didn't watch the later seasons of the abomination, so I think that makes no sense to me (as Dany and the Starks have never interacted in the books nor the seasons of the show I did see). I guess Dany does group Eddard in with Tywin, even when Barristan defends him. Daenerys feels kind of removed from Westeros in the books. Even when she tries to imagine Westeros, she always ends up thinking of the red door in Braavos. Her primary antagonists have consistently been Essosi not Westerosi. Even in the one case where someone from Westeros attacked her (Robert's assassination attempt), it was a relatively minor antagonist compared to Mirri Maz Dur and the Khalasar plot lines. I guess I know she will eventually go to Westeros, but sometimes it feels like that will never come to pass, lol. 

Yet, they root for the Lannisters, who actually did far more damage to the Targaryens than the Starks ever did.

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I thought Warhammer 40k was a board game? Is this a novel series as well?

It has accompanying novels, spinoff games, etc.

[Jaenara Belarys]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

A random note : The most horrifying thing I learned while reading the Expanse is the experiments done on the children with the protomolecule and stuff was based on a real life group of scientists during WWII. They worked for Japan and were known as Unit 731.

I didn't even think about the Unit 731 in the context of the protomolecule experiments. Reading about those guys was not pleasant, it sounded more like little kids torturing bugs than actual human beings. It's sad as hell, and you guys are saying that they have a shrine?

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh, speaking of peace, in the third book, I unexpectedly loved Anna (book Anna was way better than show Anna) and Clarissa's story was more compelling than it had been in the show as well. 

 

Probably because like Jaime, we could get inside their heads.