I am not convinced by Lemongate

[GZ Bloodraven]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

Whoever did the switch would have to know both that the real Daenerys was dead, despite it being secret, and the existence of the fake Dany, also a secret.  And different parties know the secrets.  Illyrio has no clear way to know either one; certainly not about the fake.

Wouldn't this just be Varys? Switching babies around left and right?

[Gilbert Green]

In response to a fan question, GRRM confirmed that the Lemongate climate discrepancy was significant, and points to something spoilerish.

https://imgur.com/EXN26tk

So unless you have some narrow specific definition of "Lemongate", it is basically confirmed by the author.

[Gilbert Green]

On 2/28/2023 at 4:47 PM, Craving Peaches said:

If anything, shouldn't the big house with the Red Door be in Tyrosh, given Daenerys has a Tyroshi accent and that is where she was in the original draft?

He change the name of Dany's city in early drafts.  There is no evidence he changed it's location.  Tyrosh may have originally been in the North, and Braavos (based on Venice) may have originally been in the South.

All the climate discrepancy references were inserted later AFTER ha had already settled on the name of the city.  And its location was not settled until the maps were provided in ADWD.  And then, in the WINDS sample chapters, he continued to harp on the climate discrepancy.

On 2/28/2023 at 4:47 PM, Craving Peaches said:

And that should prove even more against the 'Lemons exclusive to Dorne' argument.

Nobody has ever made a "Lemons are exclusive to Dorne" argument.   At least I have never seen such an argument.  Ever.

[three-eyed monkey]

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

In response to a fan question, GRRM confirmed that the Lemongate climate discrepancy was significant, and points to something spoilerish.

https://imgur.com/EXN26tk

So unless you have some narrow specific definition of "Lemongate", it is basically confirmed by the author.

The question is what does it point to?

My understanding of the Lemongate theory is that it essentially points to Dany being someone else. To me that's too broad to be a proper theory. I'd like to know who the proponents of the theory think she is and how it plays into the story and how it stacks up against what the text says. Is she Lyanna's daughter, Jon's twin? Is she Ashara's daughter? Is she someone used by Doran? Is it someone else? Once we answer who we can get into when, where, how and why? Then we'll have a theory to discuss.

It is possible that it points to something other than Dany being someone else. It might involve Dorne or it might involve Tyrosh, but whatever it involves Dany could still be Dany.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Is she Lyanna's daughter, Jon's twin?

Are there theories claiming Jon and Dany are twins? That’d be a first, twins born ~ 9 months apart! 

[BalerionTheCat]

Born 9 months after the mother died.

[three-eyed monkey]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are there theories claiming Jon and Dany are twins? That’d be a first, twins born ~ 9 months apart! 

Yeah, that's my point. All the theories that suggest Dany is someone else run into problems if you ask me.

For me, Viserys blaming Dany for their mother's death is enough to convince me that Dany really is his sister. So if the lemon tree is not in Braavos, and that points to a spoiler, then it's not that Dany is not who she thinks she is.

[Nevets]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are there theories claiming Jon and Dany are twins? That’d be a first, twins born ~ 9 months apart! 

I think the idea is that the real Dany was born 9 months later but subsequently died, and that's who GRRM was referring to.  The current Dany in this version is Jon's twin.  This is only one example of the mental gymnastics required to make the theory work.

[BalerionTheCat]

Yes, but that would not explain who and why would do the replacement and Viserys blaming Dany.

ETA: I mean she could have been born earlier and sheltered in Dorne. Be she would not remember living with Darry and Viserys before the substitution. And even if they were all in Dorne for a time, she would not be Lyanna's.

Edited April 2, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I think the idea is that the real Dany was born 9 months later but subsequently died, and that's who GRRM was referring to.  The current Dany in this version is Jon's twin.  This is only one example of the mental gymnastics required to make the theory work.

Yup, talk about a pretty twisted pretzel.

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are there theories claiming Jon and Dany are twins? That’d be a first, twins born ~ 9 months apart! 

Everybody knows that Jon and Meera are the real twins!  

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by LongRider

[Alester Florent]

9 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

In response to a fan question, GRRM confirmed that the Lemongate climate discrepancy was significant, and points to something spoilerish.

https://imgur.com/EXN26tk

So unless you have some narrow specific definition of "Lemongate", it is basically confirmed by the author.

I don't read it as being necessarily particularly significant. Potential spoilers for something, sure, based on the second part of his statement, but "very perceptive" could just mean "you picked up on an inconsistency I had hoped would go unnoticed".

[Gilbert Green]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't read it as being necessarily particularly significant. Potential spoilers for something, sure, based on the second part of his statement, but "very perceptive" could just mean "you picked up on an inconsistency I had hoped would go unnoticed".

"That would be telling" does not mean "I made a mistake, move along, nothing to see here, never mind."

If it was only a mistake, then his response was deliberately deceptive.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The question is what does it point to?

My understanding of the Lemongate theory is that it essentially points to Dany being someone else.

To me that's too broad to be a proper theory.

Lemongate basically means that the lemon tree climate discrepancy is significant and points to something spoilerish.  Lemonhate is the theory that anyone who thinks the lemon tree climate discrepancy is significant and points to something spoilerish deserves to be insulted or worse.

Lemongate is just a basic proposition that could eventually be proven either true or false.   If you want a "proper theory" you have to be more specific, IMHO.

Lemonhate is not even a theory.  Merely an attitude.  But it is true that one of the reasons the lemonhaters hate Lemongate is because they think it points to Dany being someone else.   To which my response is that I am open to alternate theories as to how the lemon tree is significant and points to something spoilerish.  But the lemonhaters never seem to get there.  They just get mad the instant anyone starts talking about the lemon tree.

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'd like to know who the proponents of the theory think she is and how it plays into the story and how it stacks up against what the text says.

On the most basic level, I think Lemongate probably points to a more specific proposition, that "The House with the Red Door is not in Braavos"; which in turn might (possibly) be a clue to propositions like "The Dany we know is not the child born to Rhaella on Dragonstone".   But, as I said, I am open to alternative theories as to how the lemon tree climate discrepancy is significant and points to something spoilerish.

Maybe the menagerie in the Sealord's palace contains a dragon, whose sunny, magical, fiery breath serves as an artificial light that helps grow lemon trees in a fog-shrouded climate.  That does not seem very likely to me, but it would at least meet the criteria of.a spoilerish future revelation to which the lemon tree climate discrepancy was a clue.

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Is she Lyanna's daughter, Jon's twin? Is she Ashara's daughter?

You will have to ask the individual person.  In my case, I suspect that the person we know as Dany is actually Rhaegar's daughter and Jon's sister or half-sister.  I don't think she is Jon's twin, as I believe Lyanna's abduction lasted long enough to explain 2 successive pregnancies.  She might be Ashara's daughter too, possibly by Rhaegar.

But like I said, I'm open to alternate theories.

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Is she someone used by Doran?

My guess is that she was being used by Illyrio, the slaver who deals in Valyrian-featured slave girls.   It is natural that such a girl would fall into such a man's hands, if she goes missing.  Illyrio would not need to know her true history.  And yes, I do think that Illryio and Doran are more-or-less in league, though my guess would not be that Illyrio got Dany from Doran.

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Is it someone else? Once we answer who we can get into when, where, how and why? Then we'll have a theory to discuss.

There have been many theories you could discuss if you were interested in discussing theories.  But I would not call any of those theories "Lemongate" because it is far too broad a term

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It is possible that it points to something other than Dany being someone else. It might involve Dorne or it might involve Tyrosh, but whatever it involves Dany could still be Dany.

I am open to whatever theory you wish to propose. 

But you seem to be willing to consider the basic proposition that the "House with the Red Door is not in Braavos".  Which makes you on board with "Lemongate" (and then some) in my book.

Can you formulate, for instance, a specific theory on how the House with the Red Door being in Tyrosh is significant and points to something spoilerish?

Edited April 2, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[kissdbyfire]

A dragon is not necessary to grow and keep a lemon tree, a greenhouse will suffice. 

[Sandy Clegg]

9 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

To which my response is that I am open to alternate theories as to how the lemon tree is significant and points to something spoilerish.

Have we at all considered the possibility that what Dany remembers as a lemon tree may not, in fact, have been a lemon tree at all? I ask this with the dread certainty that people are too invested in their binary ‘was it in Braavos or not’ debate, but I feel as though we should maybe open this theory out a bit, as it seems to be going nowhere right now.

[Gilbert Green]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

A dragon is not necessary to grow and keep a lemon tree, a greenhouse will suffice. 

In the cloud-shrouded hidden city of Braavos you would also need a sunlamp.

The volcanic-heated greenhouse at Winterfell certainly gets more sunlight than Braavos does.  But there is no mention of the Winterfell greenhouse growing citrus fruits.

But okay.  If I put aside these objections, do you have a theory on how a volcanic greenhouse at the Sealord's Palace is significant enough to point to some future plot revelation, so as to justify GRRM's teasing statement "... that would be telling."?  Maybe it points to a dragon, or dragon eggs, hidden under the crypts of the Sealord's Palace?

Edited April 2, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Have we at all considered the possibility that what Dany remembers as a lemon tree may not, in fact, have been a lemon tree at all?

I am certainly open to any theories you might have as to how this would be significant and point to something spoilerish.

Until you do, it looks suspiciously like one of many variants of the "move along, nothing to see here" theory.

But GRRM basically answered Victarion Chainbreaker that the lemon tree climate discrepancy was significant ("Yes") and pointed to something spoilerish ("That would be telling").  Can this be reconciled with your idea?  Maybe.  But I can't think of how.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

"That would be telling" does not mean "I made a mistake, move along, nothing to see here, never mind."

If it was only a mistake, then his response was deliberately deceptive.

I agree. He has something up his sleeve with the lemon tree, as it is so central to Dany's memory issues

 

22 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I am certainly open to any theories you might have as to how this would be significant and point to something spoilerish.

Until you do, it looks suspiciously like one of many variants of the "move along, nothing to see here" theory.

But GRRM basically answered Victarion Chainbreaker that the lemon tree climate discrepancy was significant ("Yes") and pointed to something spoilerish ("That would be telling").  Can this be reconciled with your idea?  Maybe.  But I can't think of how.

I do have ideas, but they are not going to hugely popular.

I agree that the lemon tree memory is significant, possibly even the most significant fact in Dany's origin story. So I would break it down a bit further. I would say these points are likely relevant:

1) The lemon tree is a very important mystery.

2) As such, George is not likely to reveal it's solution easily. 

3) To play fair, however, George likely has given us clues somewhere in the text. You could argue that he has no need to do this, but I don't think that's how he rolls, personally. It's there, but well-hidden.

4) Looking for lemon tree references will not turn up anything, therefore. We need to break it down into its constituent pieces:

a) Dany interprets her memory as that of a lemon tree.

b) whatever it actually was, is likely to involve a tall, possibly tree-like structure.

c) something 'yellow' and roughly 'round' will feature in its description. 

d) the lemon tree may not even be one item, but a combination of elements, which together conjure up the image of a lemon tree.

e) it should be outside a dwelling, seen through a window

As an example of something which might be pointing towards such imagery, we can look at Jon's second chapter in ACOK:

Quote

Jon had to stoop to pass through the low door. Within he found a packed dirt floor. There were no furnishings, no sign that people had lived here but for some ashes beneath the smoke hole in the roof. "What a dismal place to live," he said.

"I was born in a house much like this," declared Dolorous Edd. "Those were my enchanted years. Later I fell on hard times." A nest of dry straw bedding filled one corner of the room. Edd looked at it with longing. "I'd give all the gold in Casterly Rock to sleep in a bed again."

"You call that a bed?"

"If it's softer than the ground and has a roof over it, I call it a bed." Dolorous Edd sniffed the air. "I smell dung."

The smell was very faint. "Old dung," said Jon. The house felt as though it had been empty for some time. Kneeling, he searched through the straw with his hands to see if anything had been concealed beneath, then made a round of the walls. It did not take very long. "There's nothing here."

Nothing was what he had expected; Whitetree was the fourth village they had passed, and it had been the same in all of them. The people were gone, vanished with their scant possessions and whatever animals they may have had. None of the villages showed any signs of having been attacked. They were simply . . . empty. "What do you think happened to them all?" Jon asked.

"Something worse than we can imagine," suggested Dolorous Edd. "Well, I might be able to imagine it, but I'd sooner not. Bad enough to know you're going to come to some awful end without thinking about it aforetime."

Two of the hounds were sniffing around the door as they reemerged. Other dogs ranged through the village. Chett was cursing them loudly, his voice thick with the anger he never seemed to put aside. The light filtering through the red leaves of the weirwood made the boils on his face look even more inflamed than usual. When he saw Jon his eyes narrowed; there was no love lost between them.

The weirwood tree outside the hovel is clearly not a lemon tree. But the imagery of the light playing off the leaves and highlighting Chett's boils is interesting. Boils are generally red, but will turn yellow with pus just before they burst. Icky, I know. Also interesting to note Chett's feelings towards Jon tend towards bitterness.

Now, I'm not saying that Dany was born in this hovel - that would be idiotic. I'm just saying that George can and will provide symbolic echoes and images of key mystery points elsewhere in his books. While they may not be, in themselves, the solution, I think George is using them to subtly try and get us to make more abstract connections and break out of our traditional ways of thinking about things.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yeah, that's my point. All the theories that suggest Dany is someone else run into problems if you ask me.

The theory that Dany is exactly who she thinks she is also runs into problems, when considered in conjunction with an SSM and standard R+L=J.    If Dany is 8 or 9 months younger than Jon, and was born 9 "moons" after the flight from KL, then Ned has something less than a month to race to KL while the Lannisters sack it, quarrel with Robert, march his army south to Storms End, lift the siege, and then travel to a remote location in the mountains of Dorne in time to find his sister dying in childbirth.

Of course, if you are committed to standard R+L=J, you can force it to work somehow.  But most of the objections to alternate theories is that they conflict with timelines built around assumptions designed to fit standard R+L=J. 

GRRM's timelines may have problems no matter what theory you subscribe to.  It could be he just messed up his timelines.

Nonetheless, I will happily address specific objections you want to raise.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Gilbert Green