Maegor_the_Cool Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 Just now, Craving Peaches said: I don't think they are baby murderers either, if they are guilty of a crime it would be culpable homicide (murder charge reduced) due to diminished responsibility that we can safely say was induced by the Masters' treatment. Possibly you could also make an argument that they weren't guilty at all due to automatism but I don't think they would pass this test...I don't know, I just think I would kill myself rather than kill an innocent baby... If they had a choice, they would never do it. But due to their upbringing and society at large, they really had no choice. Their choices, as young boys, was to kill or be tortured to death. While it IS a choice, it’s one that gives an individual no other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Morte said: Beside: One can have a sense of wrongness as much as one likes, if it comes to the question "kill or be killed", most people will kill - Milgram shows that for most people a command is all what is needed. Maybe it's just me but I cannot fathom killing a newborn baby to save myself. Even in that horrible scenario. I am not going to pretend that I am infallible but with regards to the specific scenario of having to kill a newborn baby I don't think I could ever do it. I'd rather die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Morte said: in our heads we are all heroes, we are all Spartacus. And you’d all be wrong because I AM SPARTACUS! (sorry couldn’t help myself ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: And you’d all be wrong because I AM SPARTACUS! (sorry couldn’t help myself ) It’s a good show. RIP Andy Whitfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Morte said: It is of course brainwashing. The brainwashing of trauma. Trauma doesn't make you sensitive toward other people, trauma makes you numb. Read Primo Levi. Beside: One can have a sense of wrongness as much as one likes, if it comes to the question "kill or be killed", most people will kill - Milgram shows that for most people a command is all what is needed. Of course not in the hypothetical Hollywood scenario in their heads, in our heads we are all heroes, we are all Spartacus. Most of us, in Treblinka/Astapor would do anything to survive. The moral guilt lies with those who organise Treblinka/Astapor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: Maybe it's just me but I cannot fathom killing a newborn baby to save myself. Even in that horrible scenario. I am not going to pretend that I am infallible but with regards to the specific scenario of having to kill a newborn baby I don't think I could ever do it. I'd rather die. I understand that completely. But maybe if you’d gone though what they have, from childhood, you wouldn’t be exactly the person you are today? ACoK, Jon VI "Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us." He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing." "Aye," Ygritte agreed. "It always is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, King Maekar I said: It’s a good show. RIP Andy Whitfield Never watched it, but I did watch the classic Kubrick film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 Just now, kissdbyfire said: Never watched it, but I did watch the classic Kubrick film. It’s very gory, and has a lot of sex in it, but definitely worth a watch. Especially if you like watch ripped, half naked men fighting, and beautiful half naked women fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 minute ago, King Maekar I said: Especially if you like watch ripped, half naked men fighting, and beautiful half naked women fighting. Well...I...Uhm... am interested now...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: Well...I...Uhm... am interested now...? Hard abs, pecks, and oiled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Maybe it's just me but I cannot fathom killing a newborn baby to save myself. Even in that horrible scenario. I am not going to pretend that I am infallible but with regards to the specific scenario of having to kill a newborn baby I don't think I could ever do it. I'd rather die. I really wish for you to be right, and never have to face such a situation to find out, I really do. (there is no fitting smiley! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Well...I...Uhm... am interested now...? It’s called Spartacus Blood and Sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 But yeah, calling the Unsullied “Baby Killers” is a bit disingenuous given their station and function in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Maybe it's just me but I cannot fathom killing a newborn baby to save myself. Even in that horrible scenario. I am not going to pretend that I am infallible but with regards to the specific scenario of having to kill a newborn baby I don't think I could ever do it. I'd rather die. It makes me think, what happened after WWII to people who committed war crimes but claimed they were not responsible because they were under orders? I think most people in the forums know the exact answer to that but somehow when it comes to characters they love or people who are associated with them, it suddenly becomes acceptible. Those unsullied with a knife to kill a newborn and a coin to pay the mother's owner could very well have chosen to kill the owner. I have brought out the lack of slave rebellions in a different thread and I'm doing so again. There have been some who have said that we can't know if there haven't been any but Essosi city states have slave populations that far outnumber those of the freeborn or probably even freeborn and freed men combined and worse, most of their military might that doesn't come from sellsword companies come from slave soldiers. This is a great example of revolts not happening. If there had been revolts before, you wouldn't give knifes to slaves so easily, especially to commit such a horrible act as murdering babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: It makes me think, what happened after WWII to people who committed war crimes but claimed they were not responsible because they were under orders? I think most people in the forums know the exact answer to that but somehow when it comes to characters they love or people who are associated with them, it suddenly becomes acceptible. Those unsullied with a knife to kill a newborn and a coin to pay the mother's owner could very well have chosen to kill the owner. Nobody was ever told that they had to work in a concentration camp, or serve in the einsatzgruppen, upon pain of death. Some concentration camp inmates, undoubtedly, were given the choice of saving their own lives, at the expense of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I mean her whole policy in Meereen is flawed. She keeps on trying to appease the Slavers which is never going to work unless she just restores the status quo again which she wouldn't do or it would undermine the whole campaign, at the same time giving the Slavers all these things could upset the ex-slaves. Even that wouldn't be wholly pleasing because some of the now former slavers are quite content with the new way and may get upset over all the changes done being reverted back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 21 minutes ago, King Maekar I said: But yeah, calling the Unsullied “Baby Killers” is a bit disingenuous given their station and function in life. Disingenuous is Daenery's entire campaign in slaver's bay. she sets out claiming to end slavery and even kills much of the freeborn population of Astapor and ends up allowing people to sell themselves as slaves and agreeing not to take action against any slavery being done in Astapor and Yunkai. She is quite inconsistent in her intents and actions. One thing she is consistent about is and this may very well have been out of convenience, is her treatment of the unsullied: while killing an equal number of freeborn of Meereen for the children they put to the cross, she doesn't hold the unsullied accountable for their baby murdering because they were at the time slaves, same way she doesn't consider the petitioner's wife being raped because she was at the time a slave. She practically treats them as they were property at the time and even tells as much, that she was a property at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Disingenuous is Daenery's entire campaign in slaver's bay. she sets out claiming to end slavery and even kills much of the freeborn population of Astapor and ends up allowing people to sell themselves as slaves and agreeing not to take action against any slavery being done in Astapor and Yunkai. She is quite inconsistent in her intents and actions. One thing she is consistent about is and this may very well have been out of convenience, is her treatment of the unsullied: while killing an equal number of freeborn of Meereen for the children they put to the cross, she doesn't hold the unsullied accountable for their baby murdering because they were at the time slaves, same way she doesn't consider the petitioner's wife being raped because she was at the time a slave. She practically treats them as they were property at the time and even tells as much, that she was a property at the time. Most of us can draw a moral distinction between upper class people who nail children to crosses for shits and giggles, and brutalised slaves who are forced to kill at their masters' command. Most of us can draw a moral distinction between permitting a person to sell himself into slavery, and permitting a person to sell others into slavery. Most of us can understand that punishing the masters, for raping bedslaves, opens the door to arguing that the slaves should be punished for raping mistresses, on the day the city fell, in which case Meereen will be subject to years of litigation over who did what to whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 I just reread Dany meeting The Unsullied and I'm dumbfounded that anyone would misconstrue them as having any choice in anything they are "raised" to do. Keep in mind that only 1 in 3 children even survives their training. This baby killing is literally their final exam, crowning glory--it is how they win their pointed caps and become worthy of being called Unsullied. I won't resort to name calling or engaging in argument but I will implore you to go back and read just that backstory on these poor mutilated children. This is the entirety of their rearing from a very early age. It's heartbreaking. It's hard to believe anyone could read this and not understand who these boys are or what they've been tortured with in order to become Unsullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 11 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I just reread Dany meeting The Unsullied and I'm dumbfounded that anyone would misconstrue them as having any choice in anything they are "raised" to do. Keep in mind that only 1 in 3 children even survives their training. This baby killing is literally their final exam, crowning glory--it is how they win their pointed caps and become worthy of being called Unsullied. I won't resort to name calling or engaging in argument but I will implore you to go back and read just that backstory on these poor mutilated children. This is the entirety of their rearing from a very early age. It's heartbreaking. It's hard to believe anyone could read this and not understand who these boys are or what they've been tortured with in order to become Unsullied. It beggars belief to blame the Unsullied for what they are compelled to do, after years of brutalisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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