“Reports of their deaths have been greatly exaggerated”

[divica]

Just now, LongRider said:

Jon had a third wound from the back to his shoulder, "When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …"

However, I do agree that there is some weirdness to this scene.  When researching to see if other wounds in the story smoked, none were found. Many steamed, but not smoked.  Although his being unable to grab his sword I put down to adrenaline and shock, I am open to other ideas. 

but the first dagger is the scratch to the neck that barelly grazed his skin. It doesn't really count. The first serious wound is the dagger to the stomach and the second serious one is the dagger between the shoulder blades.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I assumed it was so cold that the warmth released from Jon's body in the stab wounds caused the smoking (more like steam when breathing in the cold air) and that perhaps the shoulder injury caused damage interfering with Jon's muscles, nerves, something allowing control of his grip.  

I can imagine that if warm blood is exposed to very cold temperatures there can be steam. My problem is more along the lines of pulling the dagger and not seeing heavy bleeding or jon saying his clothes were soaking in blood or something describing blood apearing like you would expect after taking out a weapon used in a stabing. Unless it is so cold that wounds freeze automatically (don't really make sense) or something weird is going on.

 

And jon has problems with his grip before the shoulder injury. And despite being ready for an attack bowen appears out of nowhere and stabs him without jon reacting. And the stweard has a weird reaction after attacking jon...

 

You can try to find justifications for most of these (and there probably are good justifications) but adding all that happened it paints a weird situation.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

You can try to find justifications for most of these (and there probably are good justifications) but adding all that happened it paints a weird situation.

OK, point made.  Any ideas what the weirdness is?  

[divica]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

OK, point made.  Any ideas what the weirdness is?  

In the spirit of varamy's prologue I remember a time when several people suported the theory that there was skinchanging involved. 

Either because ghost was agressive against a bull belonging to a wildling skinchanger and therefore jon decided to lock him up in his room or because it was a plot by the others. This could explain the steward's reaction or bowen's tears (they are a bit of an exageration given he didn't seem to care all that much about jon). 

Another theory is that jon was poisoned and his grip problem was because of that. It is interesting remember that jon just walked out of a feast. Maybe he didn't eat/drink enough of the poison and so he had to be stabed.

[LongRider]

42 minutes ago, divica said:

but the first dagger is the scratch to the neck that barelly grazed his skin. It doesn't really count.

Ah, I see what you’re saying, we just looked at the first wound differently.   

[kissdbyfire]

IMO there’s nothing weird at all in Jon’s wounds not bleeding other than the neck wound. Just think for a second in all the descriptions we get of all the layers of underwear, wool, boiled leather, mail, fur, etc. And the blades weren’t that long, the text says daggers iirc, not swords. I doesn’t mean these wounds aren’t bleeding though. What it does mean is: 

a) the wounds are not bleeding profusely b/c of all the layers

b) whatever small bleeding there is won’t seep through all the layers and reach the surface immediately 

[Nevets]

The abdominal wound is the one that worries me most.  Those can be tough to treat even with modern medicine.  They tend to get infected quite easily (fecal matter, etc.).  However, I don't see it as guaranteed to be fatal, so if GRRM wants, he can keep Jon alive.  

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

IMO there’s nothing weird at all in Jon’s wounds not bleeding other than the neck wound. Just think for a second in all the descriptions we get of all the layers of underwear, wool, boiled leather, mail, fur, etc. And the blades weren’t that long, the text says daggers iirc, not swords. I doesn’t mean these wounds aren’t bleeding though. What it does mean is: 

a) the wounds are not bleeding profusely b/c of all the layers

b) whatever small bleeding there is won’t seep through all the layers and reach the surface immediately 

To be fair, I thought Jon simply passed out and couldn't give further report on his injuries.  For all we know he could be bleeding like a pig.  As you have nicely described there are layers and layers absorbing liquid.  This smoking description gives me pause, but only a bit because it is unique.  If we had Winds we could probably figure it out.  Someone is mighty cranky over not having Winds today.  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The abdominal wound is the one that worries me most.  Those can be tough to treat even with modern medicine.  They tend to get infected quite easily (fecal matter, etc.).  However, I don't see it as guaranteed to be fatal, so if GRRM wants, he can keep Jon alive.  

Yep

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Now this talk of abandoning the Nights Watch is ludicrous.  Jon is the Lord Commander and committed to the free folk and brothers.  He has taken out loans no one knows about.  He's made long term plans and alliances.  He is in charge of more than Castle Black and there is a lot to do to protect and defend the Wall and the people on both sides of it.  Jon is not a quitter.  Martin may arrange situations to where Jon may physically leave the Watch for other posts, but I am certain this will be for the greater good of the entire north and all the people in it and within the fulfillment of the spirit of his oaths, as we know the oath he swore is not the true oath of the Nights Watch. 

Aside, I would think that a mutiny including an assassination attempt resulting in grievous bodily and spiritual injury would be good enough reason for promotion and relocation.  Just my take on it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jon  is not a quitter? He was literally planning to abandon the NW to ride into battle with Ramsay, and as his last command, he ordered the members of the NW to follow Tormund to Hardhome in a very risky mission.

He didn't try to fulfill the spirit of his oaths. He agreed with Melisandre to send Mance and 6 spearwives to help Arya escape/get to the Wall and hide her there, made a marriage between Alys Karstark and a wildling and wanted to attack Ramsay to save his little sister, At the end, he openly chose his family over his duty, which is clear if you follow his thoughts:

"Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell …  I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …"

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said."

Now you might argue that it fits the spirit of the oath, but Jon clearly thought it doesn't and still went through with it.

 

That's the point of his entire arc in ADWD. Just like Dany decides to abandon Meereen, Jon decides to abandon the NW at the end of the book in pursuit of revenge, saving family and going home.

 

I am not saying that Jon is a bad person - he was a successful and visionary LC before his mad proposal - , but trying to portray him as a 'flawless hero who does everything for the greater good of the realm' is wrong. 

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Jon was literally planning to abandon the NW to ride into battle with Ramsay, and as his last command, he ordered the members of the NW to follow Tormund to Hardhome in a very risky mission.

He didn't try to fulfill the spirit of his oaths. He agreed with Melisandre to send Mance and 6 spearwives to help Arya escape and hide her in the Wall, made a marriage between Alys Karstark and a wildling and only wanted to attack Ramsay to save his little sister, which is clear if you follow his thoughts. At the end, he openly chose his family over his duty:

"Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell …  I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …"

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said."

Now you might argue that it fits the spirit of the oath, but Jon clearly thought it doesn't and still went through with it.

 

That's the point of his entire arc in ADWD. Just like Dany decides to abandon Meereen, Jon decides to abandon the NW at the end of the book in pursuit of revenge, saving family and going home.

Sigh.  The people of Winterfell and all those south of the Wall are the people of the North.  The contents of the letter clearly show an imminent attack on the Nights Watch by a mad man...who happens to be Jon's own good brother who has lost Jon's sister, presumably, the Lady of Winterfell.  This is a title of importance throughout the North.  Even beyond the Wall.  This is a cry for help regardless the wording.  There was no order to follow anyone anywhere.  He gave Tormund command of a mission of mercy to rescue what survivors may be in Hardhome and openly declared his own intentions of riding to Winterfell with full disclosure.  

Dany didn't abandon Mereen.  She was caught up in a brutal attack that summoned her MIA dragon who decided it was time to take her flying for the first time ever.  Drogon took Dany away.  She doesn't know how to command this beast.  It was his instinct that took her from Mereen, not any of her doing at all.  

If you do not understand these obvious turns of events perhaps other characters are better for you to argue with people about.  I don't enjoy the character bashing or stupid arguments about how bad the protagonists really are.  You cannot make me believe or see that Jon or Dany are bad guys.  They are kids in impossible situations in an impossible time.  I would like to see YOU do better.  

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Jon  is not a quitter? He was literally planning to abandon the NW to ride into battle with Ramsay, and as his last command, he ordered the members of the NW to follow Tormund to Hardhome in a very risky mission.

He didn't try to fulfill the spirit of his oaths. He agreed with Melisandre to send Mance and 6 spearwives to help Arya escape/get to the Wall and hide her there, made a marriage between Alys Karstark and a wildling and wanted to attack Ramsay to save his little sister, At the end, he openly chose his family over his duty, which is clear if you follow his thoughts:

"Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell …  I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …"

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said."

Now you might argue that it fits the spirit of the oath, but Jon clearly thought it doesn't and still went through with it.

 

That's the point of his entire arc in ADWD. Just like Dany decides to abandon Meereen, Jon decides to abandon the NW at the end of the book in pursuit of revenge, saving family and going home.

 

I am not saying that Jon is a bad person - he was a successful and visionary LC before his mad proposal - , but trying to portray him as a 'flawless hero who does everything for the greater good of the realm' is wrong. 

Wow, I couldn’t possibly disagree more. I don’t really feel like typing everything and every way in which I disagree, nor in derailing this thread so I’ll just leave a link for a thread where we were discussing all of this, in case you’re interested in other opinions about it. 
 

 

[csuszka1948]

55 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Sigh.  The people of Winterfell and all those south of the Wall are the people of the North.  The contents of the letter clearly show an imminent attack on the Nights Watch by a mad man...who happens to be Jon's own good brother who has lost Jon's sister, presumably, the Lady of Winterfell.  This is a title of importance throughout the North.  Even beyond the Wall.  This is a cry for help regardless the wording.  There was no order to follow anyone anywhere.  He gave Tormund command of a mission of mercy to rescue what survivors may be in Hardhome and openly declared his own intentions of riding to Winterfell with full disclosure.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am saying that if you follow Jon's own thoughts in his POV chapter, it's clear that he didn't decide to attack Ramsay because it is 'good for the North' or helps in the fight against the Others, he did it because he wanted to save his sister even though he knew (literally framed it in this way in his mind) it is 'treason'. That's what motivates his actions, not whether it is good for the North or not. 

If he really thought that his decision to lead an army against Ramsay doesn't constitute as oathbreaking, he would have ordered the members of the NW to follow him, just like he ordered them to follow Tormund to Hardhome - an action he believed is for the good of the realm -, no matter how unpopular decision (the members of the NW led by a wildling on a mission to save wildlings when the food seems to be scarce) the latter was.

 

GRRM said that he always agreed with William Faulkner that 'the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself', and in Jon's case this conflict is between DUTY and LOVE/FAMILY, and he chose the former multiple times during the series (when he wanted to fight for Robb, when he loved Ygritte and wanted to stay with her, when he refused Stannis' offers), but clearly chose the latter at the end of ADWD.

About Jon's reactions:

1) the madman wrote a letter to Jon in the first place as a result of Jon's actions - that is, agreeing with Mel to send Mance (a known oathbreaker who ought to be executed) and 6 spearwives to either save Arya or accompany her to the Wall. He gave a casus belli.

2) even if the madman threatens to lead an army against the Watch, the correct reaction is not leading an army against him, but preparing for a battle close to the Wall.

Why? Because it will be incredibly difficult for Ramsay to convince the Northern lords to follow him in a campaign against the Night's Watch, but it would be fairly easy for Jon to convince the members of the NW and the wildlings to defend themselves against a madman.

Alternatively, if Jon's battle plan relied on ambushing Ramsay's army using Mel's visions (and that's the impression I have gotten), then he should have discussed it with her first (to ask whether this is possible) before officially announcing the plan.

55 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If you do not understand these obvious turns of events perhaps other characters are better for you to argue with people about.  I don't enjoy the character bashing or stupid arguments about how bad the protagonists really are.  You cannot make me believe or see that Jon or Dany are bad guys.  They are kids in impossible situations in an impossible time.  I would like to see YOU do better.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where did I say that Jon is a bad person or that I would do better? Where did I bash him?

I didn't, because I don't believe either of that. If my sister was threatened by a madman, I would probably also abandon my post to save her (sooner than Jon), but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily the right thing to do, because my actions might result in the death of more innocent people.

The fact that Jon and Dany are protagonists don't mean that they do everything right.

[Curled Finger]

11 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am saying that if you follow Jon's own thoughts in his POV chapter, it's clear that he didn't decide to attack Ramsay because it is 'good for the North' or helps in the fight against the Others, he did it because he wanted to save his sister even though he knew (literally framed it in this way in his mind) it is 'treason'. That's what motivates his actions, not whether it is good for the North or not.

GRRM said that 'the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself', and in Jon's case this conflict is between DUTY and LOVE/FAMILY, and he chose the former multiple times during the series (when he wanted to fight for Robb, when he loved Ygritte and wanted to stay with her, when he refused Stannis' offers), but clearly chose the latter at the end of ADWD.

About Jon's reactions:

1) the madman wrote a letter to Jon in the first place as a result of Jon's actions - that is, agreeing with Mel to send Mance and 6 spearwives to either save Arya or accompany her to the Wall.

2) even if the madman threatens to lead an army against the Watch, the correct reaction is not leading an army against him, but preparing for a battle close to the Wall.

Why? Because it will be very difficult for Ramsay to convince the Northern lords to follow him in a campaign against the Night's Watch, but it would be fairly easy for Jon to convince the members of the NW and the wildlings to defend themselves against a madman.

Alternatively, if Jon's battle plan relied on ambushing Ramsay's army using Mel's visions (and that's the impression I have gotten), then he should have discussed it with her first (to ask whether this is possible) before officially announcing the plan.

 

Where did I say that Jon is a bad person or that I would do better? Where did I bash him?

I didn't, because I don't believe either of that. If my sister was threatened by a madman, I would probably also abandon my post to save her, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily the right thing to do, because my actions might result in the death of more innocent people.

Fair enough.  The topic is derailed.  Surely there are other topics where this discussion is more appropriate to continue as I see there is more to your discussion that may be worth exploring.  

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Fair enough.  The topic is derailed.  Surely there are other topics where this discussion is more appropriate to continue as I see there is more to your discussion that may be worth exploring.  

It's unfortunate that what had been an interesting discussion of Jon's wounds and how bad they are and other issues relating to the wounding of Jon devolves, again, into how he deserved it because of blah, blah, blah, and f'ng Bowen blah!

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, LongRider said:

It's unfortunate that what had been an interesting discussion of Jon's wounds and how bad they are and other issues relating to the wounding of Jon devolves, again, into how he deserved it because of blah, blah, blah, and f'ng Bowen blah!

It's my fault.  I shouldn't have expressed my opinion here.

[divica]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

IMO there’s nothing weird at all in Jon’s wounds not bleeding other than the neck wound. Just think for a second in all the descriptions we get of all the layers of underwear, wool, boiled leather, mail, fur, etc. And the blades weren’t that long, the text says daggers iirc, not swords. I doesn’t mean these wounds aren’t bleeding though. What it does mean is: 

a) the wounds are not bleeding profusely b/c of all the layers

b) whatever small bleeding there is won’t seep through all the layers and reach the surface immediately 

My problems with this is that either his wounds are small and therefore shouldn't knock him out or they are bad and there should be blood after jon pulls the dagger. And given that jon is looking at the wound if there was blood there should be some description of it.

[csuszka1948]

6 hours ago, LongRider said:

True, plus, careful reading also indicates the second life is for the dead and there is no indication that the warg's spirit can leave the 2nd life animal it's in and survive.  Haggon's 2nd life ended, and his spirit died when Varamyr pushed him out of One Eye.  This indicates the 2nd life only goes one way, into the beast and that's final. 

None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone. The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man.    Prologue, ADWD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why is that quote proof for this?

As I understood it, Varamyr took away the possibility of second life from an old Haggon whose human body was on the brink of death by claiming his beast as his own and (not long) after that Haggon died weeping. His spirit didn't die in Greyskin, it died in his human body (weeping).

If Jon dies, his spirit will go into a wolf to live a second life, but that doesn't mean that when the connection betwen his 'second life' and his original body is reestablished (by Melisandre resurrecting him), his spirit cannot 'go back'.  

 

This vision of Melisandre is strong evidence that that's what will actually happen:

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

GRRM also all but confirmed his resurrection:

"GRRM: And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever.” That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character.

Q: And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

GRRM: Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this*, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing." 

*all this=Lady Stoneheart and Jon

"One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he's revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it's like, that's what he's clinging to. He's forgetting other things, he's forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He's forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what's animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death,”

we see echoes of thhat with some of the other characters who have come back from the death=Beric and LS are not the only characters who come back from death in the series

[divica]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wow, I couldn’t possibly disagree more. I don’t really feel like typing everything and every way in which I disagree, nor in derailing this thread so I’ll just leave a link for a thread where we were discussing all of this, in case you’re interested in other opinions about it. 
 

 

One thing I think I have never seen debated is what was jon plan after defeating the boltons. who would rule the north? how to convince people he isn't abandoning the nw and marching his personal army of wildlings to rule over the north? how to make peace between the northern people around and the wildlings? How to convince the northern lords the others are real and that the besides all the problems the north has at the moment they need to man the wall.

 

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, divica said:

My problems with this is that either his wounds are small and therefore shouldn't knock him out or they are bad and there should be blood after jon pulls the dagger. And given that jon is looking at the wound if there was blood there should be some description of it.

Yeah, I understood what your problem was. 

My feelings on this are the opposite: for once I'm happy w/ how Martin handled the medical/scientific aspect of the scene - something that doesn't happen very often. 

I would have had a big problem if a dagger wound to the belly were to cause all those layers of clothing including wool and worse, leather, to soak through to the point where the blood is visible immediately.