If the Maesters Conspiracy is true, why are they doing and what is their aim?

[maesternewton]

I'm going to assume that most people who read this are aware of the Maesters' conspiracy theory.

Which states that the Citadel is anti-magic, and has been actively trying to remove magic from Westeros.

By killing of dragons and targaryens. Probably also hiding away magical books(my headcanon)

This theory is based on Marwyn and Barbery Dustin's words, who both believe the Maesters are anything but apolitical or even ethical.

Marwyn believes the Maester want to eradicate magic and Barbery believes the Maesters influenced Rickard to create his southern alliances, which ultimately lead to the Targaryens being deposed.

If we consider this theory to be true.

1. Why are the Maesters doing this?

2. What are they trying to achieve?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

1. Why are the Maesters doing this?

Because dragons (the animals) have brought nothing but trouble for the people of Westeros, looking at the whole Dance of the Dragons?

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

2. What are they trying to achieve?

No more Targaryens so there are no more dragons or dragon riders.

But I am not convinced that there is a conspiracy. What Marwyn says does not line up with how he is actually treated and I doubt Barbrey is a reliable source.

[TheLastWolf]

Like that organization in the Eastrail 177 Shyamalan trilogy you know, Split Unbreakable Glass

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, maesternewton said:

I'm going to assume that most people who read this are aware of the Maesters' conspiracy theory.

Which states that the Citadel is anti-magic, and has been actively trying to remove magic from Westeros.

By killing of dragons and targaryens. Probably also hiding away magical books(my headcanon)

This theory is based on Marwyn and Barbery Dustin's words, who both believe the Maesters are anything but apolitical or even ethical.

Marwyn believes the Maester want to eradicate magic and Barbery believes the Maesters influenced Rickard to create his southern alliances, which ultimately lead to the Targaryens being deposed.

If we consider this theory to be true.

1. Why are the Maesters doing this?

2. What are they trying to achieve?

I tend to view this idea through a real world lens of science discounting religion or magic.  The difference being this world has tangible magic.  It is possible even probable that there are a small few maesters who would work to an end of magic, particularly dragons.  It's also possible that Marwyn and Lady Dustin are bitter blamers.  We see very clearly in Pycelll, Cressen and Marwyn himself that maesters are not all apolitical.  Luwin says he serves Winterfell yet still advises Theon to take the black.  It wasn't bad advice but was it apolitical?  In the end maesters are mere mortals and therefore fallible and subject to all the weird things all humans are, conspiracy theory among them.   

Dragons are big destructive things which have been missing from the landscape for nearly 150 years only recently returned.  Wildfyre is only recently combustible again.  How come the maesters aren't worried about wargs and skin changers?  

[maesternewton]

14 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Like that organization in the Eastrail 177 Shyamalan trilogy you know, Split Unbreakable Glass

Not gonna lie, I love this example. It would fit, if the theory is true.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dragons are big destructive things which have been missing from the landscape for nearly 150 years only recently returned.  Wildfyre is only recently combustible again.  How come the maesters aren't worried about wargs and skin changers?  

The aren't many wargs in Westeros, most are usually found beyond the wall.

[Daeron the Daring]

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because dragons (the animals) have brought nothing but trouble for the people of Westeros, looking at the whole Dance of the Dragons?

Even if that was true (it's not, but it's irrelevant), it doesn't give reasons for the Citadel, as a whole, to act.

Their enemy could be magic, and under that banner, dragons and their potential riders, but the death of dragons wasn't caused by maesters, nor the downfall of the Targaryens. One took a succession war (something not exclusive to Targaryens or dragonriding folks), and the other a madman. 

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

No more Targaryens so there are no more dragons or dragon riders.

Yet the last two stayed completely untouched by them.

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But I am not convinced that there is a conspiracy.

Neither am I. Maesters are human beings. Some are ambitious, others may feel threatened by this or that. Maybe there were, or still are cliques of maesters to achieve certain goals, but it's hard to see the whole order move as a whole. 

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What Marwyn says does not line up with how he is actually treated and I doubt Barbrey is a reliable source.

Maybe maesters are not too keen about magic. That may had been different in the past. Or maybe not. Marwyn, I'm sure, is an unusual character among the maesters, not a disliked, but rather a confusing one. 

Barbrey isn't a dull person either. Maester Walys probably influenced Rickard Stark, or rather led him to a path of craving for glory, which led to the abandonment of the usual isolationist politics of the North.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of certain groups of maesters working their way towards certain goals, but they are given too much credit for things they may have only wanted to accomplish, but likely played no big part in, if any.

 

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Neither am I. Maesters are human beings. Some are ambitious, others may feel threatened by this or that. Maybe there were, or still are cliques of maesters to achieve certain goals, but it's hard to see the whole order move as a whole. 

I think the whole problem with the idea of conspiracies amongst the Citadel or Faith is that really the organisations are too large to have every member support some scheme. If they did, it would not remain secret for long, and the likelihood of everyone being onboard with working towards exactly the same goal in the same way is really slim. If there is some sort of conspiracy I would suspect it is confined to a high ranking, elite 'inner circle' at the top of the organisation.

18 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Even if that was true (it's not, but it's irrelevant), it doesn't give reasons for the Citadel, as a whole, to act.

I don't know, I think the carnage during the Dance of the Dragons would give anyone ample motivation for many to kill dragons. It was certainly enough for the Smallfolk.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Not gonna lie, I love this example. It would fit, if the theory is true.

The aren't many wargs in Westeros, most are usually found beyond the wall.

Perhaps those grey rats are only working toward the destruction of the forces of fire magic, hmmm?  

[TheLastWolf]

6 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Not gonna lie, I love this example. It would fit, if the theory is true.

Yes, like an inverted Inquisition or evil Illuminati...

[sweetsunray]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How come the maesters aren't worried about wargs and skin changers?  

The numbers have dropped significantly. Only beyond the Wall are there still skinchangers regularly. Oh and direwolves have been extinct south of the Wall for several centuries too. Without the direwolves for example, even latent skinchangers don't develop their skill/talent really.

The difference is that the anti-warg and anti-skinchanger campaign + propaganda + eradication etc began after the arrival of the Andals. So, the Andals and maesters had thousands of years before the arrival of the Targaryens.

Is it a conspiracy or an execution of beliefs and ideas? We know Luwin studied magic, but the experience made him believe that magic does not exist. His disappointment in him not being able to perform any magic still galls him, and now he expands this to nip Bran's talent in the bud through absolute denialism. He drugs Bran to prevent him from dreaming (but mostly ends up making Bran feel guilty and miserable), but succeeds in Bran completely adopting the denialism. Luwin fell for an emotional ploy as a young man: everybody wants to feel special, be the one with the special talent, but then it turns out they are not, and then expand this to say to other boys (and girls) in the houses they serve that nobody is special. Magic is not some democratic talent or skill, and for the non inherently talented it requires a lot of blood sacrifice. The Citadel uses this "it's not fair" sentiment to make them negate magic altogether, both in the studies of magic, but on the night they have to do their vigil before saying their vows: the glass candles. The acolyte sits all night in the darkness trying to make the glass candle work and fails. What would his ego believe is the most likely reason that he failed to light it - because there is no magic, or because he fails at magic? And are we certain that the acolytes who do manage to light the glass candle on their vigil are ever allowed to say their vows? Are they even allowed to step out alive? 

You do know that it were not always the maesters who instructed at noble houses right? It used to be the alchemists (the ones who can make green wildfire). They had other knowledge beside the wildfire. But they became replaced by maesters.

This is mostly due to Andal influence: the Faith are anti magic, and the Andals were definitely anti children of the forest, skinchangers and greenseers. It were their septons who wrote down the tales and introduced writing in Westeros and to the Citadel. Those septons would have written in their own language, and so the First Men language got replaced (the language the ravens could speak, aside from the True Tongue). The Citadel jumped on the record keeping on paper. Writing democratizes access to knowledge. Accurately checking what happened 1000 years ago was only something greenseers could do before the introduction of writing. So, maesters wanted this writing, and then began to be sent to houses to instruct the children of lords and ladies, because the kings and high lords wanted their children to know that writing too. They thereby began to replace the alchemists. And so the maesters got more power as well as acquire the authority over "truth" which is influenced by the anti magic beliefs of the Faith of the 7.

Where most of this would have evolved rather organically the first thousand of years, at some point some archmaesters definitely began to manipulate and skew the scales deliberately. There is an agenda, but it's not some bullet list and archmaesters checking on their anti magic bullet list progress with weekly meetings. They don't need to. If you make people believe there is no magic (starting with the maesters themselves), and send them out to serve a house, as we see with Luwin, he will do whatever he believes needs to be done to eradicate the magic. Separate the wolves from the children. Because Luwin is kind hearted, they were not killed yet. Drug a boy to have dreamless sleep just because he talks of dreaming about weirwoods and wolves. Luwin means well, but just look at what he does in just a few months once Bran's talents became stronger. He however does not see anything wrong in it, because he does not believe that Bran has magical dreams. He simply believes they are nightmares and giving him a drug to sleep without having the nightmares seem a reasonable solution to him. Locking the wolves away in the godswood seems a reasonable thing to him as well. Luwin cannot fathom how dangerous and destructive his decisions are. He only begins to realize it upon Theon taking Winterfell and Bran's disappearance.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by sweetsunray

[astarkchoice]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I tend to view this idea through a real world lens of science discounting religion or magic.  The difference being this world has tangible magic.  It is possible even probable that there are a small few maesters who would work to an end of magic, particularly dragons.  It's also possible that Marwyn and Lady Dustin are bitter blamers.  We see very clearly in Pycelll, Cressen and Marwyn himself that maesters are not all apolitical.  Luwin says he serves Winterfell yet still advises Theon to take the black.  It wasn't bad advice but was it apolitical?  In the end maesters are mere mortals and therefore fallible and subject to all the weird things all humans are, conspiracy theory among them.   

Dragons are big destructive things which have been missing from the landscape for nearly 150 years only recently returned.  Wildfyre is only recently combustible again.  How come the maesters aren't worried about wargs and skin changers?  

Great points.

To be fair luwin IS serving winterfell there, he is obliged to serve the current master of the castle best he can which is theon! Theon is utterly hopelessly surrounded and the people outside want to kill him (probably slow) taking the black is the best advice for him to escape unharmed.

Wargs and skinchangers arent confrmed like dragons are..they are still myth  and even then a largely northern one!

[maesternewton]

13 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Even if that was true (it's not, but it's irrelevant), it doesn't give reasons for the Citadel, as a whole, to act.

Their enemy could be magic, and under that banner, dragons and their potential riders, but the death of dragons wasn't caused by maesters, nor the downfall of the Targaryens. One took a succession war (something not exclusive to Targaryens or dragonriding folks), and the other a madman. 

I mean dragons are dangerous. The whole Dance shows it. The war was fought primarily using dragons and not men, and it caused a lot of damage.

13 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Neither am I. Maesters are human beings. Some are ambitious, others may feel threatened by this or that. Maybe there were, or still are cliques of maesters to achieve certain goals, but it's hard to see the whole order move as a whole.

If there is a conspiracy, then it's most likely the conclave. They run the citadel and decide which Maester goes where.

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The numbers have dropped significantly. Only beyond the Wall are there still skinchangers regularly. Oh and direwolves have been extinct south of the Wall for several centuries too. Without the direwolves for example, even latent skinchangers don't develop their skill/talent really.

The difference is that the anti-warg and anti-skinchanger campaign + propaganda + eradication etc began after the arrival of the Andals. So, the Andals and maesters had thousands of years before the arrival of the Targaryens.

I never thought of this, perhaps it explains why the isn't many Skinchangers in Westeros anymore.

Some people might have the ability to skinchanger, but due to Maester propaganda they never tried to learn how to control their ability or just didn't think they had it.

 

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Yes, like an inverted Inquisition or evil Illuminati...

Like the Clover Organization, they don't kill you but just tell you, your abilities aren't real which ends up making you suppress them and not use. 

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Perhaps those grey rats are only working toward the destruction of the forces of fire magic, hmmm?  

Perhaps, since we are told Leyton and Malora Hightower are busy consulting magic tomes in their tower.

 

[TheLastWolf]

43 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

Like the Clover Organization, they don't kill you but just tell you, your abilities aren't real which ends up making you suppress them and not use

But they, the grey rats believe in it all the same, and yet efforts directed towards elimination not acquisition 

44 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

Perhaps, since we are told Leyton and Malora Hightower are busy consulting magic tomes in their tower.

And the Citadel has a lot of rare books, like the one a certain FM is after. 

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:37 PM, maesternewton said:

1. Why are the Maesters doing this?

2. What are they trying to achieve?

The maesters were the most powerful cross-national organization during the pre-Targaryen dynasty: politically, it would make sense for them to want a weak magic-focus. If there are a bunch of Thoros of Myr's running around resurrecting people...maggots seem less useful now, I would say. They're also not good at their jobs considering the complete lack of compelling technological advancement in the past 2000 years. 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:39 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Like that organization in the Eastrail 177 Shyamalan trilogy you know, Split Unbreakable Glass

Please, tell me more. I dont know about the shymalan trilogy

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Please, tell me more. I dont know about the shymalan trilogy

.

Spoiler

It's an ancient organization that is dedicated to keeping the knowledge existence of 'super'humans suppressed from the general public or larger humanity.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

On 5/12/2023 at 12:45 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I think the whole problem with the idea of conspiracies amongst the Citadel or Faith is that really the organisations are too large to have every member support some scheme. If they did, it would not remain secret for long, and the likelihood of everyone being onboard with working towards exactly the same goal in the same way is really slim. If there is some sort of conspiracy I would suspect it is confined to a high ranking, elite 'inner circle' at the top of the organisation.

Yes, the entire order acting as a whole, especially through several generations and centuries, pushing the same agenda is not likely.

I disagree with possible conspiracies being reserved to the higher ranks of the order tho.

If you and I were two competent maesters in Westeros, sent to a wealthy and influential house of a certain region (let's say every kingdom has 10+ of those), I'm sure just the two of us could make real shit go down, if there's anything going down. Or maybe we arrive with an agenda already. It shouldn't take all that much, really, and  if we were to assume that such a clique formed before the rebellion, you wouldn't need more than 10 maesters at the right location, with 1 or 2 maybe in the higher ranks just to have the right assignments.

On 5/12/2023 at 12:45 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know, I think the carnage during the Dance of the Dragons would give anyone ample motivation for many to kill dragons. It was certainly enough for the Smallfolk.

I disagree, but it doesn't matter. Not the point. The point I'm making is that the Citadel is not a charity organization or the Red Cross itself. They don't give a fuck about the people, at best they care about the nobles they serve, who also don't care about the people like 95% of the time. The people who are willing to sacrifice the life of thousands, and the livelihood and peace of millions for their own personal gains. All the while they claim to have divine right to do such things, just as Targaryens (aka valyrians) do the same with dragons.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[maesternewton]

On 5/14/2023 at 8:18 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, the entire order acting as a whole, especially through several generations and centuries, pushing the same agenda is not likely.

I disagree with possible conspiracies being reserved to the higher ranks of the order tho.

If you and I were two competent maesters in Westeros, sent to a wealthy and influential house of a certain region (let's say every kingdom has 10+ of those), I'm sure just the two of us could make real shit go down, if there's anything going down. Or maybe we arrive with an agenda already. It shouldn't take all that much, really, and  if we were to assume that such a clique formed before the rebellion, you wouldn't need more than 10 maesters at the right location, with 1 or 2 maybe in the higher ranks just to have the right assignments.

The Conclave, you know, the institution that controls the whole Maesters is the one that decides which Maesters goes to where. We are told by the books that Walys, is the son of the Archmaester Walgrave with a Hightower girl. 

Considering the potential involvement of a clandestine plot originating from the upper echelons, it stands to reason that an influential figure within that stratum would opt to dispatch his own offspring to execute the plot himself.

On 5/14/2023 at 8:18 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

I disagree, but it doesn't matter. Not the point. The point I'm making is that the Citadel is not a charity organization or the Red Cross itself. They don't give a fuck about the people, at best they care about the nobles they serve, who also don't care about the people like 95% of the time. The people who are willing to sacrifice the life of thousands, and the livelihood and peace of millions for their own personal gains. All the while they claim to have divine right to do such things, just as Targaryens (aka valyrians) do the same with dragons.

The composition of the Citadel likely consists of individuals who do not belong to the noble class but rather hail from humble origins. In this scenario, it is highly probable that they would possess a deep understanding and compassion for those who bear the weight of oppression imposed by the nobility, or even the Targaryens.

Regardless of the circumstances, the motivations behind the Citadel's desire to curtail the practice of magic need not be rooted in altruism or moral justifications for the theory to make sense or be true.

[Daeron the Daring]

14 hours ago, maesternewton said:

We are told by the books that Walys, is the son of the Archmaester Walgrave with a Hightower girl. 

Considering the potential involvement of a clandestine plot originating from the upper echelons, it stands to reason that an influential figure within that stratum would opt to dispatch his own offspring to execute the plot himself.

What you describe here is no evidence to anything other than nepotism. 99% of the feudal higher end participates in that.

14 hours ago, maesternewton said:

The composition of the Citadel likely consists of individuals who do not belong to the noble class but rather hail from humble origins.

Do you have evidence for this too?

In theory, yes, the Citadel doesn't discriminate, and anyone can become a master based on their capabilities. But you got nepotism as the backbone of society. One really good real life exalple would be the catholic clergy. Baiscally, anyone from the most humbe background could climb the ranks and become the Pope. But far more bishops, cardinal bishops and popes were of noble origin than not, due to unequal chances and dicrimination too.

If I was Archmaester Walgrave, I'd rather want my bastard son serve a Lord Paramount than House Manwoody. That's just a no brainer in Westeros.

[maesternewton]

20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What you describe here is no evidence to anything other than nepotism. 99% of the feudal higher end participates in that.

Certainly, while some may interpret the situation as a manifestation of nepotism, it is important to consider the following perspective. Walys, by all accounts, is the individual who exerted influence over Rickard's decisions regarding the betrothals. This brings us back to the central argument that if there indeed exists a conspiracy within the higher echelons of the Citadel, it becomes conspicuously evident through the involvement of both Walgrave and Walys.

20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Do you have evidence for this too?

In theory, yes, the Citadel doesn't discriminate, and anyone can become a master based on their capabilities. But you got nepotism as the backbone of society. One really good real life exalple would be the catholic clergy. Baiscally, anyone from the most humbe background could climb the ranks and become the Pope. But far more bishops, cardinal bishops and popes were of noble origin than not, due to unequal chances and dicrimination too.

If I was Archmaester Walgrave, I'd rather want my bastard son serve a Lord Paramount than House Manwoody. That's just a no brainer in Westeros.

The Citadel, as explicitly stated, upholds a inclusive ethos wherein any individual, regardless of their societal status, is welcome to join its ranks. Such a policy's effectiveness is evident through the presence of individuals from low backgrounds such as Pate.

I comprehend the argument you are making concerning nepotism; however, it is imperative to acknowledge that Walys was an active participant in a machination that ultimately resulted in the decline of the Targaryen dynasty. This particular circumstance serves as a compelling indication that lends credence to the existence of the underlying anti-magic conspiracy formulated by the higher ups in the Citadel.