Jon’s Deception and It’s Consequences

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

As we are all no doubt aware, Jon, I believe in ADWD, forces Sam & Gilly to take Mance’s baby with them to the Citadel, and leave Gilly’s behind at the Wall. He does so, knowing that Melisandre was looking to burn king’s blood, and with Mance’s child out of reach will keep that from happening.

Its been awhile since I’ve read ADWD, but I believe that, however cruel this was, he did it knowing that no harm will come to Gilly’s child. As he has no king’s blood so there is no point of burning him, as far as Jon thinks, for Melisandre.

 

Do you think that deception, may be the catalyst for Shireen’s burning? Mel will go for Mance’s child, but find out that Jon switched them, so she’ll be forced to go to Shireen.

[LongRider]

What reason would have to burn 'kings blood' this time?

[Curled Finger]

Hrm...According to the Pink Letter Stannis is dead and all Melisandre sees when she asks her flames for glimpses of Azor Ahai is Snow.  Are you thinking she puts it together that Jon is Azor Ahai finally and this somehow leads to a sacrafice?    

Does anyone know the babies have been switched?

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

What reason would have to burn 'kings blood' this time?

My thinking too.  Wasn't it all about winning wars previously? 

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

My thinking too.  Wasn't it all about winning wars previously? 

Singular.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light."

.

I mean this lady's fucking nuts. At the very least, she's got a plan. 

There is a war though, not Bolton but the other one. Stannis was planning on offing Edric to fight the Others and that was back in Dragonstone days, not winter northern ones.

54 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

As we are all no doubt aware, Jon, I believe in ADWD, forces Sam & Gilly to take Mance’s baby with them to the Citadel, and leave Gilly’s behind at the Wall. He does so, knowing that Melisandre was looking to burn king’s blood, and with Mance’s child out of reach will keep that from happening.

Its been awhile since I’ve read ADWD, but I believe that, however cruel this was, he did it knowing that no harm will come to Gilly’s child. As he has no king’s blood so there is no point of burning him, as far as Jon thinks, for Melisandre.

 

Do you think that deception, may be the catalyst for Shireen’s burning? Mel will go for Mance’s child, but find out that Jon switched them, so she’ll be forced to go to Shireen.

If Jon says that's no monster, that's a maester! What'll it do? Why would Meli believe him? And if Jons dead, who's there to say the truth about the boys parents? (Very Ned Jon relationship living on in a new life)

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

My thinking too.  Wasn't it all about winning wars previously? 

She’ll think Stannis is possibly dead, or she may switch to Jon as AAR and want to sacrifice King’s Blood to bring him back

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

As we are all no doubt aware, Jon, I believe in ADWD, forces Sam & Gilly to take Mance’s baby with them to the Citadel, and leave Gilly’s behind at the Wall. He does so, knowing that Melisandre was looking to burn king’s blood, and with Mance’s child out of reach will keep that from happening.

Its been awhile since I’ve read ADWD, but I believe that, however cruel this was, he did it knowing that no harm will come to Gilly’s child. As he has no king’s blood so there is no point of burning him, as far as Jon thinks, for Melisandre.

 

Do you think that deception, may be the catalyst for Shireen’s burning? Mel will go for Mance’s child, but find out that Jon switched them, so she’ll be forced to go to Shireen.

Maybe excuse.  I think Mel already knows what's been done and when the time comes to appease R'hollr and save Stannis' army she'll tell Stannis 'we could have used Mance Rayder's kid'  but now all we can do is accept defeat, unless there's someone else you would suggest...' 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Aejohn the Conqueroo

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

She’ll think Stannis is possibly dead, or she may switch to Jon as AAR and want to sacrifice King’s Blood to bring him back

It's a jump, but I can see it as a possibility since death pays for life or some nonsense is all through this thing.  

 

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Jon says that's no monster, that's a maester! What'll it do? Why would Meli believe him? And if Jons dead, who's there to say the truth about the boys parents? (Very Ned Jon relationship living on in a new life)

 

Brilliant catch there.

My biggest problem with this is not knowing if anyone knows the babies have been switched and not being sold on Selyse being down with burning her only child.  I guess Selyse could be killed off in a mercy killing sort of way.  I would find it merciful at any rate as she is just awful.  Maybe the wet nurses know?   Would anyone listen to them?  Val maybe?  Val would certainly want to get rid of Shireen.  Truth be told, I always sort of thought the Wildlings would burn Shireen, not Mel.  Because of the greyscale not a sacrifice.   Perhaps it all becomes a happy sort of coincidence Mel can take all the credit for and still slide by Davos with?   

[LongRider]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Does anyone know the babies have been switched?

Val certainly does, I think Mel does, perhaps a few others. 

[Springwatch]

Not sure Mel has plans - she had both Mance and son in her power and let them both go. Or at least she definitely let Mance go, and she can't start on two kings to wake the dragon without Mance. She indirectly let Edric go too. So she's definitely keen on king's blood, but she doesn't seize her chances; she waits for the god to give her a nudge or something.

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Not sure Mel has plans - she had both Mance and son in her power and let them both go. Or at least she definitely let Mance go, and she can't start on two kings to wake the dragon without Mance. She indirectly let Edric go too. So she's definitely keen on king's blood, but she doesn't seize her chances; she waits for the god to give her a nudge or something.

That's actually a good point.  Could be she doesn't know at all.  

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

It’ll be interesting that’s for sure…

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's a jump, but I can see it as a possibility since death pays for life or some nonsense is all through this thing.  

 

Brilliant catch there.

My biggest problem with this is not knowing if anyone knows the babies have been switched and not being sold on Selyse being down with burning her only child.  I guess Selyse could be killed off in a mercy killing sort of way.  I would find it merciful at any rate as she is just awful.  Maybe the wet nurses know?   Would anyone listen to them?  Val maybe?  Val would certainly want to get rid of Shireen.  Truth be told, I always sort of thought the Wildlings would burn Shireen, not Mel.  Because of the greyscale not a sacrifice.   Perhaps it all becomes a happy sort of coincidence Mel can take all the credit for and still slide by Davos with?   

Selyse doesn’t seem to have any motherly affection for Shireen. Stannis is the only one of her parents that seems to love her. I’d actually say it’s more likely she’ll burn her in Stannis’ absence  

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

5 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Val certainly does, I think Mel does, perhaps a few others. 

For some reason I've always assumed Mel knew as well. Although sometimes I think I give her a little too much credit. @Springwatch articulated what I couldn't about her. Now she's probably about to proclaim Jon as AAR, what does that entail? Reactions will be extremely mixed imo. It will be like starting all over.

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

For some reason I've always assumed Mel knew as well. Although sometimes I think I give her a little too much credit. @Springwatch articulated what I couldn't about her. Now she's probably about to proclaim Jon as AAR, what does that entail? Reactions will be extremely mixed imo. It will be like starting all over.

You know what I LOVE about this?  Mel declares Jon AA and Stannis comes strolling up.  I can't wait for that.  Delicious!  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

It’ll be interesting that’s for sure…

Selyse doesn’t seem to have any motherly affection for Shireen. Stannis is the only one of her parents that seems to love her. I’d actually say it’s more likely she’ll burn her in Stannis’ absence  

She wouldn't dare.  Not for Jon Snow.  For Stannis, maybe, but not for Jon.  I get that Selyse is a fanatic, but she is the fanatic on top, calling shots, arranging marriages.  She has no power in Jon Snow.  

[LongRider]

Well, before we get too carried away with this, we have to see what happens after the stabbing.  Seriously, all hell is about to break lose and it could take quite awhile before things calm down.  One of Selyse's men has been killed by a giant and you know is she going to be raising hell about it.  I can see Val being let out of her rooms and wildings and Black Brothers fighting.  

What is going on at the Wall is going to be very different from what went on before the Sheildhall meeting.   Hopefully, this will keep Shireen from burning. 

[Hugorfonics]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Not sure Mel has plans - she had both Mance and son in her power and let them both go. Or at least she definitely let Mance go, and she can't start on two kings to wake the dragon without Mance. She indirectly let Edric go too. So she's definitely keen on king's blood, but she doesn't seize her chances; she waits for the god to give her a nudge or something.

Or she knows that Shireen is in her pocket. (Or that she knows it's all bullshit like the leeches)

23 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Val certainly does, I think Mel does, perhaps a few others. 

If Mel knows then she allowed it which would probably mean that she thinks Crasters baby has kb too.

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know what I LOVE about this?  Mel declares Jon AA and Stannis comes strolling up.  I can't wait for that.  Delicious!  

But I think they're gonna talk it out and somehow arrive on amicable ground. And then Danys gonna pull up and be like, Azor Awho?

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

But I think they're gonna talk it out and somehow arrive on amicable ground. And then Danys gonna pull up and be like, Azor Awho?

Ok but I would love to see like 3 different people all claiming to be AA. It would be hilarious. And then the fans will flight about it too.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Well, before we get too carried away with this, we have to see what happens after the stabbing.  Seriously, all hell is about to break lose and it could take quite awhile before things calm down.  One of Selyse's men has been killed by a giant and you know is she going to be raising hell about it.  I can see Val being let out of her rooms and wildings and Black Brothers fighting.  

What is going on at the Wall is going to be very different from what went on before the Sheildhall meeting.   Hopefully, this will keep Shireen from burning. 

All 100% true and right my friend.  Still, I am hoping that in the immediate reading of events at the Wall that happen to coincide with speculation in this topic that Selyse does get squashed or cross bowed or just run through.  An avid fan can hope!  Do you think it has legs at all?  She doesn't even know Stannis is dead yet.  What do you think it will do to her faith in R'hllor learning AAR is dead?  Will she more fervently turn to Melisandre and her mad faith?  Will she turn from it as people sometimes do in the face of great loss?  Will she cling to Shireen and try to get away?  There could be some good story here with Selyse!

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Ok but I would love to see like 3 different people all claiming to be AA. It would be hilarious. And then the fans will flight about it too.

Yea it is hilarious. Tyrion was eying up the red priest being like Young Griff would like this guy until he asked for a translation and was like Young Griff should never talk to this guy. 

And what do you mean and then fans will fight about it lol.

Imo you gotta go through the checklist, like a scavenger hunt. 1st on the list the heart of your wife. And so on and so forth. Surprisingly many characters are reborn after killing their beloved. I don't even know how it's a discussion, the obvious answer is Dany but then like Tyrion or Victarion (yo ship, Victyrion) or Stannis or like any character somehow not named Jon Snow. In fact the book goes out of the way to be like yea Jon killed Ygritte, but didn't kill kill Ygritte. But of course Jon Snow is Azor Ahai.

But basically I think it's all gonna come down to corny. There's a little Azor Ahai in all of us and if humanity works together we can overcome ice zombies or whatever. Which I think is a nice message