Morally, what are the worst things Jon & Daenerys have done in the story?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

This isn’t meant to bash either character, just merely compile a list.

for Jon what comes to mind is his treatment of Gilly and her child. It was cruel, but was done to save Mance’s child. Gilly’s child, lacking Kingsblood would be safe from Mel’s pyre.

You also have him thinking to himself thatd he’d be willing to execute all the Wildling hostages, should he need to. But if he would actually follow through with that threat, when and if it came to it, is unknown. He thinks he would though.

 

For Dany it’s easily the Wineseller’s daughter. The girl likely knew nothing, and if she did anything it was likely coerced. And if I recall correctly she was given to the Shavepate, and we never hear about her again. So it’s well within the realm of possibility that she is dead. 

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

This isn’t meant to bash either character, just merely compile a list.

for Jon what comes to mind is his treatment of Gilly and her child. It was cruel, but was done to save Mance’s child. Gilly’s child, lacking Kingsblood would be safe from Mel’s pyre.

You also have him thinking to himself thatd he’d be willing to execute all the Wildling hostages, should he need to. But if he would actually follow through with that threat, when and if it came to it, is unknown. He thinks he would though.

 

For Dany it’s easily the Wineseller’s daughter. The girl likely knew nothing, and if she did anything it was likely coerced. And if I recall correctly she was given to the Shavepate, and we never hear about her again. So it’s well within the realm of possibility that she is dead. 

I agree with each of those examples.  I doubt if Gilly’s child will in fact, be safe. Jon was playing God.

WRT the wineseller’s daughters,  almost every leader authorises torture.  It’s a norm of this world.  But, if you do, I think you have a moral obligation to be present, in order to form a judgement on the confessions, or refusals to confess, and to prevent it from getting out of hand. Many torturers do it because they enjoy it.

While torture was often employed in medieval States, some penal systems did impose strict limits on its use, with the intent that it should not lead to death of permanent injury.

 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I agree with each of those examples.  I doubt if Gilly’s child will in fact, be safe. Jon was playing God.

WRT the wineseller’s daughters,  almost every leader authorises torture.  It’s a norm of this world.  But, if you do, I think you have a moral obligation to be present, in order to form a judgement on the confessions, or refusals to confess, and to prevent it from getting out of hand. Many torturers do it because they enjoy it.

While torture was often employed in medieval States, some penal systems did impose strict limits on its use, with the intent that it should not lead to death of permanent injury.

 

With Gilly’s child, I think if she Jon is present and functional it’d be safe. But now that he is ,at a minimum, severely injured, he won’t be in any condition to tel anyone that’s not Mance’s child. I think Val may be the only other person that knows that, but I could be wrong.

[LongRider]

13 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

I think Val may be the only other person that knows that, but I could be wrong.

She knows, and regardless, she would protect the babe from Mel.  Oh, she's locked in a tower, she would find a way out, I'm sure. 

As regards the OP, I'll go with sending Maester Aemon with Sam and Gilly.  Sam warned Jon that sending him away would kill him, and Sam was right. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

5 minutes ago, LongRider said:

She knows, and regardless, she would protect the babe from Mel.  Oh, she's locked in a tower, she would find a way out, I'm sure. 

As regards the OP, I'll go with sending Maester Aemon with Sam and Gilly.  Sam warned Jon that sending him away would kill him, and Sam was right. 

To be fair, staying would risk him dying in a far more horrible way. Similar to his brother.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

10 minutes ago, LongRider said:

All the Jon hating trolls onside in 3...2...1

I wish I could delete obvious trolling comments. So we could discuss the matter appropriately.

[Corvo the Crow]

Jon has nothing that I can think of except for the baby swap, which was quite bad, the baby was safe but it was wrong to tear him apart from his mother and also the little Aemon Battleborn from his only (Mance thought to be dead) relative. Jon killing his wards if their parents cause problems is perfectly acceptable in this society, as the clansmen chiefs let us know.

Oh perhaps also not marrying Val even though he has stolen her repeatedly. Poor girl is in expectance of it and the fool won't even understand. Tormund has the worst of it, dealing with Jon's foolishness in this matter for the second time.

As for Dany, the list is quite comprehensive, off the top of my head:

-Slave owning (Dorea, Irri and Jhiqui)

-Employing a bloodmage

-Murdering her husband in a blood magic ritual, as well as the employed bloodmage(Rhaego was unintentional)

-murder of the Undying (I believe it's just self defense but can also be argued that it could've been avoided)

-Buying thousands of slaves (Unsullied)

-Fraud (is it the correct term?), she didn't pay for the slaves she bought

-Genocide of the Astapori populace

-Ordering the deaths of hundreds of innocent slaves, first in Astapor and then in battle against the Yunkish slave army

-Since she toppled down the government of Astapor and instating a governing council with her members of her own choosing, effectively making them a puppet state so  Astapor becoming a failed state and all the ill that befell what remains of the Astapori genocide survivors and the freed men are also on her shoulders. She also left her puppet government with no military to defend themselves from both outside and inside threats.

-Reinstating a milder form of slavery in Meereen and regular slavery in Yunkai and Astapor despite causing deaths of tens of thousands throughout her campaign that was supposedly against Slavery.

- Making money off of the slave trade in Meereen she has reinstated.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Are you suggesting that Jon should not have saved the baby's life and should not have secured hostages from the wildlings that came south of the Wall? These were immoral acts? Come on.

"This isn't meant to bash any character, but I'm going to set abduction and torture alongside saving a baby's life and securing some measure of guarantee that an army of reavers won't reave once they're on the other side of the realm's only defenses against them"

Clearly this is the dark, Stark portion of Jon's evil soul asserting itself once again for his personal aggrandizement and the smiting of all of the Starks' noble enemies.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

This isn’t meant to bash either character, just merely compile a list.

for Jon what comes to mind is his treatment of Gilly and her child. It was cruel, but was done to save Mance’s child. Gilly’s child, lacking Kingsblood would be safe from Mel’s pyre.

You also have him thinking to himself thatd he’d be willing to execute all the Wildling hostages, should he need to. But if he would actually follow through with that threat, when and if it came to it, is unknown. He thinks he would though.

 

For Dany it’s easily the Wineseller’s daughter. The girl likely knew nothing, and if she did anything it was likely coerced. And if I recall correctly she was given to the Shavepate, and we never hear about her again. So it’s well within the realm of possibility that she is dead. 

Why is this important?  What light does it shed on either character or their trajectories?  You already have a list of Dany's transgressions going only a few posts in.  Who are you gunning for in this and why?  

[Maegor_the_Cool]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why is this important?  What light does it shed on either character or their trajectories?  You already have a list of Dany's transgressions going only a few posts in.  Who are you gunning for in this and why?  

I ain’t gunning for anyone. Just thought it’d be easier to centralize the criticisms of the morals of these two characters

[Jon Fossoway]

1 hour ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

 

 

For Dany it’s easily the Wineseller’s daughter. The girl likely knew nothing, and if she did anything it was likely coerced. And if I recall correctly she was given to the Shavepate, and we never hear about her again. So it’s well within the realm of possibility that she is dead. 

Wow. Finally found something I completely forgot about the series. Can you point me to more info so I can look it up on the wiki?

[Craving Peaches]

I know this thread was started with good intentions but I feel like it will quickly degrade into the select group we all 'know and love' using it to bash the Starks over and over again...

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know this thread was started with good intentions but I feel like it will quickly degrade into the select group we all 'know and love' using it to bash the Starks over and over again...

I’m hoping not but can see what you mean

[Corvo the Crow]

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why is this important?  What light does it shed on either character or their trajectories?  You already have a list of Dany's transgressions going only a few posts in.  Who are you gunning for in this and why?  

A partial list. She has committed too many to be able to remember all of them at any given time. 

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know this thread was started with good intentions but I feel like it will quickly degrade into the select group we all 'know and love' using it to bash the Starks over and over again...

Oh no! Evil Jon saved the baby from getting sacrificed to a fiery god! He is the very definition of evil, preventing the fiery god getting it's due, perhaps he even intends to sacrifice him to cold gods!

[LongRider]

40 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

and the smiting of all of the Starks' noble enemies.

Well, all the enemies named Saint Bowen Marsh.    

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh no! Evil Jon saved the baby from getting sacrificed to a fiery god! He is the very definition of evil, preventing the fiery god getting it's due, perhaps he even intends to sacrifice him to cold gods!

Jon Snow abandoned his duty to the Watch and Westeros due to lust for his sister Arya. He also murdered Janos Slynt and assaulted Ser Aliser. Jon will be the one to let the White Walkers into Westeros.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

-Since she toppled down the government of Astapor and instating a governing council with her members of her own choosing, effectively making them a puppet state so  Astapor becoming a failed state and all the ill that befell what remains of the Astapori genocide survivors and the freed men are also on her shoulders. She also left her puppet government with no military to defend themselves from both outside and inside threats.

King Cleon and all of the butchery in Astapor were a direct product of Dany's vanity. She made it a puppet state and then took her hand out if its ass and let it strangle itself while she played queen in Mereen.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

17 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

King Cleon and all of the butchery in Astapor were a direct product of Dany's vanity. She made it a puppet state and then took her hand out if its ass and let it strangle itself while she played queen in Mereen.

Dany’s mistake, while massive, was a political one. Not a morally one. She didn’t do it vindictively she just was so inexperienced she didn’t even think about it.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Wow. Finally found something I completely forgot about the series. Can you point me to more info so I can look it up on the wiki?

It was chapter 11 in ADWD I believe.

To be clear, Dany orders the Wineseller’s tortured. His daughters were to be “sweetly” questioned first. But she gave them to the Shavepate, and once alone he could tell her whatever he wanted. and it’s clear he is a far more violent one of her followers. And we never hear about these girls again. Mayhaps they knew nothing, or Mayhaps the Shavepate tortured and killed them.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Jon Snowfyre said:

And we never hear about these girls again. Mayhaps they knew nothing, or Mayhaps the Shavepate tortured and killed them.

I think it gets worse, because the daughters themselves aren't being tortured to make them confess, they are being tortured in front of their father to make him confess.