Jon & Dany’s Parallels and What Will Separate Them at the End

[Maegor_the_Cool]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:29 PM, chrisdaw said:

The key differences are (will be) these.

Interventionism. Jon would have walked past Craster with all his wives and daughters and no sons, while in contrast Dany

has to poke her nose into every injustice she happens by.

The other key is that Dany will, like Rhaegar and other Targaryens, be willing to trade a living child of her own for the power of dragons, whereas Jon, like Ned, will upon some soul searching consider protecting children of his own blood his highest priority.

Would you be willing to make a topic on this? I’d be interested in reading about this

[Moiraine Sedai]

A.  Jon was the conflicted, incompetent who got put in a position of leadership. He blew the chance to rebuild the NW because of he lacked emotional control. Mormont, Samwell, Donal, and Quorin gave him every advantage he needed and he still blew it. He is not what heroes are made of. He’s a traitor who will never be trusted again. If he should return, his place, the only place he will be accepted is with Wildlings. 
 

B. Dany is a born winner. She successfully turned a bad marriage situation to her advantage.  She is responsible for the heroic feat of bringing dragons back to life. The Unsullied were rescued from slavery because of Dany. The emancipation of slaves in Meereen is the practice she needs for the military campaign to take Westeros back. She will stop Bran’s evil mind controlled wights from exterminating the people in Westeros.  Meereen will be won over with military force while Bran’s dark magic will be defeated with dragons and military force. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

22 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

A.  Jon was the conflicted, incompetent who got put in a position of leadership. He blew the chance to rebuild the NW because of he lacked emotional control. Mormont, Samwell, Donal, and Quorin gave him every advantage he needed and he still blew it. He is not what heroes are made of. He’s a traitor who will never be trusted again. If he should return, his place, the only place he will be accepted is with Wildlings. 
 

B. Dany is a born winner. She successfully turned a bad marriage situation to her advantage.  She is responsible for the heroic feat of bringing dragons back to life. The Unsullied were rescued from slavery because of Dany. The emancipation of slaves in Meereen is the practice she needs for the military campaign to take Westeros back. She will stop Bran’s evil mind controlled wights from exterminating the people in Westeros.  Meereen will be won over with military force while Bran’s dark magic will be defeated with dragons and military force. 

Are you David Benioff?

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Are you David Benioff?

No, Benioff disliked Daenerys, as a character.

[Moiraine Sedai]

3 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Are you David Benioff?

Certainly not.  My ending would have the Starks dead and Dany ruling from the iron throne.  

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

No, Benioff disliked Daenerys, as a character.

True, but the story he tells is bad enough to be Benioff and Weiss’ work

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

True, but the story he tells is bad enough to be Benioff and Weiss’ work

That is true.

[Nevets]

I doubt Daenerys even visits Volantis.  She's heading the wrong direction and joining the wrong crowd for that.  And George has said that Daenerys and Tyrion won't meet until fairly late in the next book.

My guess is that Daenerys leads the Dothraki across the Dothraki Sea while Tyrion goes by ship to the Free Cities, and they meet there with their respective armies.  Daenerys has other priorities anyway, like going home, to Westeros.

Jon and Daenerys are on parallel journeys in ADWD certainly.  Both take power when they are young, inexperienced, and in no way ready.  They make mistakes.  They have advisors they don't necessarily trust, adversaries they have to deal with, and enemies they don't know about.  And right now, both are in a bad place, having just had attempts on their life.  They will probably go on having parallel stories, but I don't venture where they will go at this time.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:54 AM, SeanF said:

No, Benioff disliked Daenerys, as a character.

I disliked Benioff as a writer.  

[kissdbyfire]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:56 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Certainly not.  My ending would have the Starks dead and Dany ruling from the iron throne.  

Do you realise that such an ending would be totally idiotic? 
 

Seriously, I do often wonder whether you say shit like that just to annoy others or if you truly believe that would be a satisfying and cogent ending. If it is the former than thank the Old Gods you didn’t write for the show, as your story would have been just as awful, ridiculous, and unfaithful to the source material as D&D’s was. 

20 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I disliked Benioff as a writer.  

Never thought I’d say this, but here I wholeheartedly agree, and not just him but Weiss as well. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The parallel characters are really Daenerys and Bran.  The lines will bend and meet in the future. The battle of Fire and ice. 

[SeanF]

53 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Do you realise that such an ending would be totally idiotic? 
 

Seriously, I do often wonder whether you say shit like that just to annoy others or if you truly believe that would be a satisfying and cogent ending. If it is the former than thank the Old Gods you didn’t write for the show, as your story would have been just as awful, ridiculous, and unfaithful to the source material as D&D’s was. 

Never thought I’d say this, but here I wholeheartedly agree, and not just him but Weiss as well. 

There’s no reason why one can’t sympathise with both Daenerys and the Starks.

And that can still be the case, even if they were to come into conflict.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

There’s no reason why one can’t sympathise with both Daenerys and the Starks.

And that can still be the case, even if they were to come into conflict.

As of right now I absolutely agree. Their stories are separate at the moment. There will be conflict when they come together. And I really do think it’s possible that Daenerys could go the tyrant route that needs to be taken out. Though I suspect Arya may be the one to do it. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 7/7/2023 at 7:46 AM, Darth Sidious said:

Jon has already given himself to the dark. He is not coming back from that dark hell. He broke the vows of the Watch, murdered Slynt, and got the watch involved in a war with Ramsay. He is done.  Dany is fighting the good fight to free millions of slaves. She is not and will not fall to the dark. Dany is the hero here. Jon is the villain. 

Jon's a simpleton with the mind of turkey.  He was an adequate ranger.  Definitely not of the same quality as Qhorin Halfhand but passable nevertheless.  Jon was never cut out to be a leader though.  His time leading the wall was short but not short enough. The wall could not have taken any more of Jon's poor leadership without it collapsing.  Dany is smarter than Jon.  She has the stature to lead and to govern.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon's a simpleton with the mind of turkey.  He was an adequate ranger.  Definitely not of the same quality as Qhorin Halfhand but passable nevertheless.  Jon was never cut out to be a leader though.  His time leading the wall was short but not short enough. The wall could not have taken any more of Jon's poor leadership without it collapsing.  Dany is smarter than Jon.  She has the stature to lead and to govern.

Aside from the utter bullshit you spewed your last two sentences are wrong.

Jon and Dany are of similar intelligence. And Dany has yet to prove she can adequately govern cities, let alone 7 Kingdoms

[csuszka1948]

Returning to the topic, Dany and Jon were part of the 'main five', the 'cripples, bastards and broken things', outcasts of the society that show the world that they are not what they think of them, so they will probably survive.

 

However, there is a more important reason why I believe Dany will survive.

Namely, Dany is the 'child of three', her story is centered around threes, and she always breaks the pattern the third time.

She managed to hatch dragons after the third dragon dream. She sent out three bloodriders and the third returned with three "wise people" (Pyat Pree, Xaro Xoan Daxos, Quaithe), out of which only the third was trustworthy. Quarth had three walls, the outermost representing Dany's childhood (the imagined idyll of the house with the red door), the middle her time spent during most of the series with warring, and the third with scenes of love:

"

“Three thick walls encircled Qarth, elaborately carved. The outer was red sandstone, thirty feet high and decorated with animals: snakes slithering, kites flying, fish swimming, intermingled with wolves of the red waste and striped zorses and monstrous elephants. The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. The innermost wall was fifty feet of black marble, with carvings that made Dany blush until she told herself that she was being a fool. She was no maid; if she could look on the grey wall’s scenes of slaughter, why should she avert her eyes from the sight of men and women giving pleasure to one another?” – Daenerys II, A Clash of Kings

 

and the House of Undying also prophesied three fires, mounts and treasons, the second one (fire for death, mount for dread, treason for gold) the worst, and all of them ended with love (perhaps the third 'treason to love' that Dany will know is Ned's treason against Robert by hiding Jon?):

“. . three heads has the dragon … the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air… . mother of dragons … child of storm … The whispers became a swirling song… . three fires must you light … one for life and one for death and one to love … Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt … three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love … The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath… . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love …” – Daenerys IV, A Clash of Kings

 

She liberates three cities in Slaver's Bay, and decides to change her approach by settling down for the third time. She has three opportunities to go to Westeros (end of ASOS, Xaro's offer, end of ADWD) and she accepts it for the third time. I also expect that she will have three opportunities to fight the Others - first when Marwyn comes to her in Volantis (but she chooses to help Aegon instead), second when she is in Braavos (but she refuses because she wants revenge and take her Throne) and third when she meets with Jon and she will accept it the third time.

We can see that it's always the third time that the pattern breaks.

However, there is a sequence that has only repeated twice during Dany's arcs, so it's very likely that it will happen again: Dany's 'rebirth'. Both at the end of AGOT and end of ADWD, she had a fevered dream, a miscarriage and subconsciously or consciously chose the dragons over a child (first resulting in hatching of dragons, second accepting 'Fire and Blood'). 

This means that during the third 'rebirth' (probably at the end of the series), she will probably break the pattern, choosing a child over her dragon (probably sacrificing Drogon in some manner) and have a successful pregnancy.

This also fits because the number three is related to the Triple Goddess, something GRRM explicitly put into the religion of the Seven and is a part of Dany's story (even the moon is mentioned many times, especially related to the waking of dragons):

“The triple moon is a Goddess symbol that represents the Maiden, Mother, and Crone as the waxing, full, and waning moon. It is also associated with feminine energy, mystery and psychic abilities.”

“You will be my khalasar,” she told them. “I see the faces of slaves. I free you. Take off your collars. Go if you wish, no one shall harm you. If you stay, it will be as brothers and sisters, husbands and wives.” The black eyes watched her, wary, expressionless. “I see the children, women, the wrinkled faces of the aged. I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old. To each of you I say, give me your hands and your hearts, and there will always be a place for you.” – Daenerys X, AGOT

Dany starts out as a 'maiden' during AGOT, stays a 'mother' (Mhysa, Mother of Dragons) during most of her story and will end up as a 'crone', returning to Vaes Dothrak (probably a significantly different and reformed version of it).

Finally, Dany's last chapter also seems to foreshadow her return to Essos after fighting the Others:

"She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inamed. Where did all the ants come from? Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly. She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck. She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many …

It turned out that their anthill was on the other side of her wall. She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and and her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros. The biggest wall in all the world, her brother Viserys used to say, as proud as if he’d built it himself.

Viserys told her tales of knights so poor that they had to sleep beneath the ancient hedges that grew along the byways of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany would have given much and more for a nice thick hedge. Preferably one without an anthill."

Edited August 7, 2023 by csuszka1948