The Not so Mad King

[Tradecraft]

Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Which came first Aerys Madness or the plotters against him?

 

Were told a very convenient story about Aerys. He was 100% evil and it's okay to hate him. And it's okay to rebel against him... 

 

Or so the rebels say. 

 

But look at who stood to benefit from Aerys' downfall;

 

-Hoster Tully (got to marry off his daughters to Lord paramount and avenge the old slight against the Targaryens... The Targaryen spurned the Tully's during the reign of Aegon V, king before Aerys). 

-Jon Arryn became hand. His foster sons become King and warden of the North 

-Tywin Lannister got Cersei to marry the king. Jaime keeps his head. 

 

The big losers are the Dornish and the Targaryens. Both lost influence over Kingslanding. 

 

Too often we look at Aerys post Duskendale and judge Aerys as mad. However, simultaneously we also view Tywin as trying to have Aerys killed at Duskendale. 

 

But look at the strange happenings during Aerys reign;

-Steffon Baratheon dies at sea, a close friend to the king on a royal mission. Robert, Jon Arryn's ward is elevated to Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Jon Arryn, Robert and Aerys' enemies benefited from this

-Elia Martell attacked in the Kingswood, en route to marry Rhaegar 

-The mysterious Tourney at Harrenhal where Rhaegar plotted to oust Aerys. Funded by a rich mysterious benefactor. 

-the untimely death of Joanna Lannister (a known "associate" of the king and one of the queens handmaids)

 

When we look at the things that supposedly drove Aerys mad the character makes much more sense. 

 

-Tywin was actively plotting against Aerys

-Tywin probably; had Steffon killed, attacked Eli in the Kingswood (not far from his future son in law Robert's domains) to leave Rhaegar free for Cersei, bankrolled the Tourney at Harrenhal, and quite possibly he might have sent Joanna Lannister to the silent sisters for birthing Tyrion (a dwarf with some black hair). 

-the Lords paramount were sick of the Targaryen infighting after the war of the 9 penny kings. They were especially sick of the Kings trying to interfere in their domains. They wanted a king like Robert.

-The Tullies under Hoster wanted revenge for past slights. In particular, they wanted revenge for the Targaryen failure to honor their marriage pact under Aegon V. 

-Jon Arryn... His motivation seems unclear to me at this time. But he benefited greatly from the rebellion. He was hand of the king. His people controlled the treasury. He got a nice young bride out of the deal. His foster sons became immensely powerful after the war. Not bad at all. 

-Tywin was able to scratch his itch for vengeance against Aerys personally. He was also able to keep Jaime alive and Cersei on the throne next to Robert. 

The rebellion is a crime scene. The mad king narrative is a cover up.

We have to ask who benefited from the crime? To what extent did they plot before things went off the rails? 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

15 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

When we look at the things that supposedly drove Aerys mad the character makes much more sense. 

Aerys is one of my favourite characters precisely because we know so much, yet at the same time so little about him. He's definitely a victim to some extent of 'History being written by the winners' but was also clearly capable of monstrous acts.

The idea that he started out quite reasonable, but then something sent him off the deep end - that's just such a better story than him being a Joffrey clone, and being 'bad to the bone' from the outset. 

Having said that, I've done absolutely bugger all research into him and have nothing useful to add other than: I await with popcorn at the ready, to see how this thread turns out 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Tradecraft]

41 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Aerys is one of my favourite characters precisely because we know so much, yet at the same time so little about him. He's definitely a victim to some extent of 'History being written by the winners' but was also clearly capable of monstrous acts.

The idea that he started out quite reasonable, but then something sent him off the deep end - that's just such a better story than him being a Joffrey clone, and being 'bad to the bone' from the outset. 

Having said that, I've done absolutely bugger all research into him and have nothing useful to add other than: I await with popcorn at the ready, to see how this thread turns out 

I don't excuse the monstrous acts... 

But I have a very weird feeling about Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark's fate... 

Jaime is disassociating during the event. The Lord Commander acts weird afterwards... Lord Rickard is wearing the golden spurs of a knight (and the only knights in the North are Manderlys) ... And there is more...

When "Mance Rayder" is burned in the North, it's actually the Lord of Bones... It isn't actually him. Nor is Davos executed... The executions are faked... a common occurance in ASOIAF.

Not to mention everyone thought "Bran" and "Rick"on died in Winterfell by Theon's hands...

I cannot prove it, but there is something wrong with this particular atrocity by Aerys. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Craving Peaches]

I question whether Aerys is really 'mad' as well, but for a different reason. Looking at his behaviour, he does not appear to actually be having much trouble telling what is real or being able to rationalise his actions, i.e. he is not psychotic. He can rationalise his despicable acts, such as burning down King's Landing and killing all those people to deny Robert the city, and the fire incident allowed him to get rid of people he thought were troublesome. People point to his paranoia but we know at least one person, his own son, probably was actually plotting to overthrow him, and Varys was probably telling him all sorts, so I think the paranoia was Varys' creation rather than his innate 'madness', and it had some basis in reality.

Really, he should be called 'Aerys the Cruel' rather than 'Aerys the Mad'. Calling him mad makes it seem like it wasn't his fault and he wasn't really choosing to do those things, because he did not understand what he was doing or the consequences, but this doesn't really line up with what we see.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Sandy Clegg]

12 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I cannot prove it, but there is something wrong with this particular atrocity by Aerys. 

As much as it is a despicable way to kill two people, whenever I read about that moment there is a very, very dark part of me  that does think "Yes, that is indeed a very inventive method you've thought of. Nice job, Aerys."

Deliciously dark stuff from George. But yes, also horrific.

[Craving Peaches]

What I am most suspicious of is not Aerys himself, but the events at Duskendale. Imprisoning the King, especially with Aerys' reputation, seems like a stupid thing to do, and counterintuitive to the aim of getting the charter. Someone had a theory that Tywin was in on it and it was an attempt to kill Aerys but Barristan ruined it and Tywin just let Denys take the fall.

[Tradecraft]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What I am most suspicious of is not Aerys himself, but the events at Duskendale. Imprisoning the King, especially with Aerys' reputation, seems like a stupid thing to do, and counterintuitive to the aim of getting the charter. Someone had a theory that Tywin was in on it and it was an attempt to kill Aerys but Barristan ruined it and Tywin just let Denys take the fall.

Tywin triggered Aerys into going by forbidding him from going. 

and then he killed all the people who might talk, the lady of duskendale's tongue was removed. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Lord Varys]

Aerys was obviously suffering from some form of mental illness. Details like his irrational fear of being poisoned or murdered by his barbers, hairdressers, and manicurists, the way he handled the Jaime issue (steal Tywin's heir, then fear Tywin's heir because he is now his bodyguard), the mood swings described as having taken place at Harrenhal, the PTSD he clearly got from Duskendale, his mad obsession with fire, the way he ended up treating his sister-wife when the fire madness overwhelmed him, etc. all prove that.

The guy had clear moments, but he is clearly not in control of his own actions.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Which came first Aerys Madness or the plotters against him?

 

Were told a very convenient story about Aerys. He was 100% evil and it's okay to hate him. And it's okay to rebel against him... 

 

Or so the rebels say. 

 

But look at who stood to benefit from Aerys' downfall;

 

-Hoster Tully (got to marry off his daughters to Lord paramount and avenge the old slight against the Targaryens... The Targaryen spurned the Tully's during the reign of Aegon V, king before Aerys). 

-Jon Arryn became hand. His foster sons become King and warden of the North 

-Tywin Lannister got Cersei to marry the king. Jaime keeps his head. 

 

The big losers are the Dornish and the Targaryens. Both lost influence over Kingslanding. 

 

Too often we look at Aerys post Duskendale and judge Aerys as mad. However, simultaneously we also view Tywin as trying to have Aerys killed at Duskendale. 

 

But look at the strange happenings during Aerys reign;

-Steffon Baratheon dies at sea, a close friend to the king on a royal mission. Robert, Jon Arryn's ward is elevated to Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Jon Arryn, Robert and Aerys' enemies benefited from this

-Elia Martell attacked in the Kingswood, en route to marry Rhaegar 

-The mysterious Tourney at Harrenhal where Rhaegar plotted to oust Aerys. Funded by a rich mysterious benefactor. 

-the untimely death of Joanna Lannister (a known "associate" of the king and one of the queens handmaids)

 

When we look at the things that supposedly drove Aerys mad the character makes much more sense. 

 

-Tywin was actively plotting against Aerys

-Tywin probably; had Steffon killed, attacked Eli in the Kingswood (not far from his future son in law Robert's domains) to leave Rhaegar free for Cersei, bankrolled the Tourney at Harrenhal, and quite possibly he might have sent Joanna Lannister to the silent sisters for birthing Tyrion (a dwarf with some black hair). 

-the Lords paramount were sick of the Targaryen infighting after the war of the 9 penny kings. They were especially sick of the Kings trying to interfere in their domains. They wanted a king like Robert.

-The Tullies under Hoster wanted revenge for past slights. In particular, they wanted revenge for the Targaryen failure to honor their marriage pact under Aegon V. 

-Jon Arryn... His motivation seems unclear to me at this time. But he benefited greatly from the rebellion. He was hand of the king. His people controlled the treasury. He got a nice young bride out of the deal. His foster sons became immensely powerful after the war. Not bad at all. 

-Tywin was able to scratch his itch for vengeance against Aerys personally. He was also able to keep Jaime alive and Cersei on the throne next to Robert. 

The rebellion is a crime scene. The mad king narrative is a cover up.

We have to ask who benefited from the crime? To what extent did they plot before things went off the rails? 

 

He was erratic for much of his life -- big plans, no follow through, skirt-chaser -- but he didn't really lose it until after Duskendale. So it was a bad combination of a weak mind and poor character coupled with the pressures of ruling a kingdom. He was the first, or the last, to crack.

[astarkchoice]

Its a mental.spiral

He has mental.issues but they ARE out to get him BECAUSE of how erratic  he is!. 

He lashes out of  increasing fear  not a place of strength. The pyromancers give him a tool to try and terrify others with and he  becomes more paranoid he considers turning it into weapon to.burn and doom others...he will never be captive again basicaly!

We also see hints of this in his pleasure from causing fear and harm to his helpless wife and his growing paranoia around tywin and his  need to try and humble.him... yoing tywin has the awe and fear that he himself desires!

Edited July 11, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Tradecraft]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys was obviously suffering from some form of mental illness. Details like his irrational fear of being poisoned or murdered by his barbers, hairdressers, and manicurists, the way he handled the Jaime issue (steal Tywin's heir, then fear Tywin's heir because he is now his bodyguard), the mood swings described as having taken place at Harrenhal, the PTSD he clearly got from Duskendale, his mad obsession with fire, the way he ended up treating his sister-wife when the fire madness overwhelmed him, etc. all prove that.

The guy had clear moments, but he is clearly not in control of his own actions.

Was he wrong to fear his death? He was killed by his own kingsguard!

He was tricked into going to Duskendale, where Tywin laid siege for over a year and openly proposed Rhaegar taking over. 

He would have lost his throne if he didn't attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

His old Hand Tywin married into the family that overthrew him. 

4 Lords Paramount rebelled. The Tyrells and the Greyjoys sat out the war (effectively). 

The Dornish had to be blackmailed into giving full support. 

 

[Tradecraft]

40 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

He was erratic for much of his life -- big plans, no follow through, skirt-chaser -- but he didn't really lose it until after Duskendale. So it was a bad combination of a weak mind and poor character coupled with the pressures of ruling a kingdom. He was the first, or the last, to crack.

I don't deny he drank and chased women all day long. 

[Tradecraft]

8 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Its a mental.spiral

He has mental.issues but they ARE out to get him BECAUSE of how erratic  he is!. 

He lashes out of  increasing fear  not a place of strength. The pyromancers give him a tool to try and terrify others with and he  becomes more paranoid he considers turning it into weapon to.burn and doom others...he will never be captive again basicaly!

We also see hints of this in his pleasure from causing fear and harm to his helpless wife and his growing paranoia around tywin and his  need to try and humble.him... yoing tywin has the awe and fear that he himself desires!

yes, he was paranoid but Tywin was ACTIVELY trying to kill him after Duskendale. 

[csuszka1948]

What were even Aerys' suspicions about the rebels?

Jaime was there when Brandon and Rickard Stark were burned, and he doesn't seem to recall that Aerys charged them with a conspiracy against the crown. It's also weird that none of the Targ supporters (like JonCon) know about this supposed 'Southern Ambitions' conspiracy.

 

It really seems that Aerys just decided to kill the Starks because he somehow decided they were plotting against his family when Brandon came barging into KL and shouting.

It would make little sense from Rickard's part to go into KL is he was the part of such conspiracy, he would have probably coordinated with his allies in the conspiracy and called the banners.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, csuszka1948 said:

What were even Aerys' suspicions about the rebels?

Jaime was there when Brandon and Rickard Stark were burned, and he doesn't seem to recall that Aerys charged them with a conspiracy against the crown. It's also weird that none of the Targ supporters (like JonCon) know about this supposed 'Southern Ambitions' conspiracy.

 

It really seems that Aerys just decided to kill the Starks because he somehow decided they were plotting against his family when Brandon came barging into KL and shouting.

It would make little sense from Rickard's part to go into KL is he was the part of such conspiracy, he would have probably coordinated with his allies in the conspiracy and called the banners.

Not to mention Aerys wanted Robert killed for 'plotting' or something, but who would involve Robert in a plot which needs its members to keep quiet until the time is right?

[csuszka1948]

6 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Was he wrong to fear his death? He was killed by his own kingsguard!

He was tricked into going to Duskendale, where Tywin laid siege for over a year and openly proposed Rhaegar taking over. 

He would have lost his throne if he didn't attend the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

His old Hand Tywin married into the family that overthrew him. 

4 Lords Paramount rebelled. The Tyrells and the Greyjoys sat out the war (effectively). 

The Dornish had to be blackmailed into giving full support. 

 

First, the Tyrells didn't sit out the war. Kevan thinks about Aerys and Mace that "That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell supported to the bitter end and well beyond.".

Second, the Rebellion of the 4 Lord Paramounts didn't happen because they had a big conspiracy in mind - if they really had, they would have called the banners much sooner, after Brandon's arrest and would have mobilized very quickly - but because of Aerys' actions. He turned the North and some of the Vale&Riverlands against them by killing Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark, Elbert Arryn and their companions; he turned Jon Arryn, the Baratheons and much of the Stormlords against him by demanding the heads of Ned and Robert. Hoster Tully joined for ambition and to complete a previously discussed marriage alliance.

Considering the weight of his crimes, it's actually shocking how many people have fought for the Targaryens and Aerys - yes, most of them fought because they had their hopes in Rhaegar, but it still shows the strong legitimacy the Targaryens still possessed.

[Hugorfonics]

The mad king. Robert? Stannis? Euron? Viserys? Joffrey? Cersei and Dany for the sake of inclusivity? They all take after Aerys. The only kings who dont are Robb Renly and Balon and that may have to do with their quick deaths and sparse screen time.
Why was Aerys mad? Well he looked the part, always yelling and bugging, and he did a mad act, he started the war by ordering the death of child Ned and friend. This friend, looks the part, always yelling and bugging and did a mad act by starting a war when he ordered the death of Dany. Robert, mad.
He did burn folk though, never heard of a noose? Nutty, like Stannis the mad.
No compassion, no love, straight murderous dick head. Euron Joff and Cersei as well are mad.
Tbh I dont even know how to compare him to Viserys the mad.
Then Dany, obviously the greatest monarch in asoiaf, fucking insane

Quote

You are my queen, my sword is yours, but do not ask me to stand aside as you climb on Drogo's pyre. I will not watch you burn."
"Is that what you fear?" Dany kissed him lightly on his broad forehead. "I am not such a child as that, sweet ser."
"You do not mean to die with him?

I love Jorahs reaction, hes like, wtf? So Aerys wants to blow up his house because dragon. This is like his daughters level of thinking, is it mad if it works?
Yes.

[astarkchoice]

18 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

yes, he was paranoid but Tywin was ACTIVELY trying to kill him after Duskendale. 

I didnt think tywin was trying to kill him  he seemed to be more focused onnhis house and work as  hand as aerys became less stable.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Jaime is disassociating during the event. The Lord Commander acts weird afterwards... Lord Rickard is wearing the golden spurs of a knight (and the only knights in the North are Manderlys) ... And there is more...

The Manderlys aren't the only knights in the North. We know of knights from houses Cassel, Tallhart and Locke, just off the top of my head. Knights are just less common there. But as Maester Luwin explains to Bran in AGoT, Northern cavalry is not necessarily functionally different in either equipment or performance from southron knights, they just don't see the need to go through with the formalities of knighthood to acquire a title they don't care about. 

Lord Rickard may have adopted some of the outward trappings of a knight because he thought they looked good, or to appeal to southron sensibilities, or maybe he did actually get knighted at some point and we didn't hear about it because his knightly title was superseded by his lordly one. I don't think we can really assume too much from that.  

[Maegor_the_Cool]

He probably had some mental issues, exacerbated by Duskendale. But I don’t think he was wrong about there being traitors around him. He was undoubtedly Cruel and deserved his death.