The reason for Rhaegar Training...

[Tradecraft]

From Book Nerd to Warrior?

The text says that at a certain point Rhaegar decided he need to train to fight. 

But Rhaegar didn't win the battle of the Trident... Did he train for nothing?

I looked for alternative reasons why he had to train; 

1. To get in shape (for the ladies)*

2. To win the Tourney at Harrenhal**

3. To capture the knight of the Laughing Tree (tasked to do so by Aerys...)

4. To win the only battle he fought during the Rebellion, at the Trident... Which he lost... 

 

We don't know any other times he fought. 

 

Possibilities

-I'm not ruling out number 1. We know he was a book nerd before he started training. But there are other ways to get fit than learning to fight. 

-Number two is possible. But we have some evidence against this reason**. 

-We don't have evidence he captured the knight of the laughing tree. 

-Maybe he thought he was going to win the battle of the Trident. Maybe he thought he could take his book-nerd a** up against 6ft 3 (ish) Robert Baratheon in his prime. Maybe Rhaegar thought he was wounded and he had a chance. Or maybe he didn't think he needed to, that he'd win the battle outright and it wouldn't come down to a final showdown. Or maybe it was going so good for Rhaegar that Robert threw the dice and opted to fight to the death (rather than accept defeat).Or maybe he saw this final battle in the prophecy and he thought he'd come out on top.  There's a bunch of permutations of this.  So many if's, ser! I'm skeptical...

 

My really bad no good idea

There's one idea we haven't explored. It's not talked about the fanbase that much. 

Quote

"With the coming of the new year, the crown Prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands."

Rhaegar disappeared from Dragonstone before the war. He re appears later in the Riverlands. 

But the phrasing sounds like he did not go to the Riverlands first. The journey ultimately leads him back to the Riverlands. So it sounds like it was not his original destination/target. He goes somewhere first. 

I don't think he kidnapped Lyanna. For all we know, someone borrowed his armor (a la Renly or the Hound) and kidnapped her. 

 

There's no shortage of suspects; 

-Lyanna herself (running away from marriage with Robert)

-The three knights who were humiliated by Knight of the Laughing tree (I really goddamn like this idea... It forces a 7 vs 3 showdown... three knights against Rhaegar's crew)

-Someone trying to force the Anti-Targaryen alliance to finally congeal (Aka Tywin... It would "Rhyme" with the Starks kidnapping Tyrion Lannister... and open Robert up for a match with Cersei later on... if he wins)

 

Personally, I like the second option. It's like the plot of Ivanhoe, which GRRM says was an inspiration. If this is true, Rhaegar WON this fight. It might have even cost him his life to rescue Lyanna... Just like Baelor Breakspear died saving Duncan the Tall. This is a stretch... except for the fact that Dany dreams of seeing herself in Rhaegar's armor at the Trident. I think this is a clue that someone other than Rhaegar fought on the trident (plus all the "iconic armor" switch ups in the books).  

 

No matter what is the truth... What the hell was Rhaegar training for? What fight did he actually win?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Was Rhaegar a Lady's man? Cersei wanted to marry him, Lyanna cried during his song (whatever that means)... But Ned questions if Rhaegar frequented brothels... 

**Selmy... hints that Rhaegar cheated in this tournament... 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Tradecraft

[astarkchoice]

Because he had visions

He probably  saw a great battle in his future and his child with lyanna would be the key to the song of ice and fire.

So the visions where correct just not the outcome he expected

 

[Tradecraft]

11 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Because he had visions

He probably  saw a great battle in his future and his child with lyanna would be the key to the song of ice and fire.

So the visions where correct just not the outcome he expected

 

I get that. That makes sense. 

 

But I think he won at least one fight. But which one was that? Harrenhal is the best bet... But Barristan hints that he was asked to take a fall! He regrets it terribly! It's one of his biggest regrets in life. 

 

 

[astarkchoice]

12 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I get that. That makes sense. 

 

But I think he won at least one fight. But which one was that? Harrenhal is the best bet... But Barristan hints that he was asked to take a fall! He regrets it terribly! It's one of his biggest regrets in life. 

 

 

He does win a few tourneys hes a very good jouster and swordsman , top tier in fact...just happned to run into another elite fighter at the trident and someone had to lose!

On reflection the fact hes supposedly pretty AND a great singer of songs for the ladies AND becomes an amazing jouster id how he managed to attract  the horse crazy lyanna ! so he did sorta need to train anyway to fulfil the prophecy !

[Alester Florent]

Rhaegar was knighted at seventeen, i.e. in 276-7, so he must have completed some kind of course of martial training before that. By around this time he was skilled enough to unhorse Tygett Lannister at a tournament, and not long after that, Tywin requested that Jaime squire for him (an honour, to be sure, but given Jaime's talent you imagine Tywin wouldn't want him squiring for a mediocre knight).

So I think it started long before Harrenhal, and we're pretty much told it's on the basis of something he read. He doubtless trained as a knight in order to "get into shape" (I'm not actually sure, in Westeros, that there are other worthwhile ways of getting in shape for a nobleman/prince than martial training) but specifically, I think, because he determined that he was required to fulfil the role of a warrior in some event or other to come. I don't think it was for the ladies: from what we hear of him, it seems likely his dalliance with Lyanna was an anomaly.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that Rhaegar found a prophecy related to the events we're now seeing play out in ASoIaF and he foresaw himself playing some role in this conflict since it would fall within his projected lifetime: he would, of course, be about 40 had he not been killed, well capable of leading the defence against the incoming threat. When he says "the dragon has three heads" he might mean his three children - or he could mean himself together with Aegon and Jon.

[Mourning Star]

We are basically told the answer to your question. Not to say you can’t come up with an alternate possible explanation, but Rhaegar thought he was the prince that was promised and so would be destined to wield Lightbringer.

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young

…

The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want tobelieve. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Eldest son with unstable father; kingdom needed a reliable warrior commander that represented the Crown.

 

[Tradecraft]

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

We are basically told the answer to your question. Not to say you can’t come up with an alternate possible explanation, but Rhaegar thought he was the prince that was promised and so would be destined to wield Lightbringer.

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young

…

The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want tobelieve. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. 

One learns to fight so you can fight. 

You don't learn to fight so you can plausibly cheat at tourneys and lose a major battle (possibly knowing about it in advance because he was so gloomy all the time). 

 

Most people look at him training and think ah he just wasn't good enough. 

I look at his training and think he won the fight he was meant to win (which isn't the trident). 

I think he won another fight, which aren't presently aware of. 

I think maybe the knights that were embarassed by KOTLT abducted Lyanna and Rhaegar saved her. But I have no proof, just speculation. 

 

 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

One learns to fight so you can fight. 

You don't learn to fight so you can plausibly cheat at tourneys and lose a major battle (possibly knowing about it in advance because he was so gloomy all the time). 

 

Most people look at him training and think ah he just wasn't good enough. 

I look at his training and think he won the fight he was meant to win (which isn't the trident). 

I think he won another fight, which aren't presently aware of. 

I think maybe the knights that were embarassed by KOTLT abducted Lyanna and Rhaegar saved her. But I have no proof, just speculation. 

 

 

He clearly saw visions of the others etc and knew of the song of fire and ice and clearly saw him and lyanna as part of it . He must have seen something that insisted he push himself in martial training

He probably assumed hed win at the trident and replace his mad father, then secure the realm and prepare it  for his son  to lead  the comming end times.

It sorta makes sense if he thinks jon snow will be westeros messiah  john connor type thus he leaves him stupidly overprotected at the tower of joy!!

[CassDarry]

It might not of been a prophecy he read, it may of been a history book and decided it will be better if he was a martial Prince. 

[Evolett]

I was reading up on Hugh Hammer recently, the blacksmith's bastard (and one of the two betrayers) who claimed Vermithor during the Dance. There seems to be another prophecy that isn't often mentioned in the fandom, if at all. From the Wiki:

Quote

Calling himself Lord Hammer, Hugh desired to become a king. He gained support from the soldiery who believed a prophecy which spoke of a new king arising once a hammer falls on a dragon.

If the soldiers at the time were aware of this prophecy at the time of the Dance, perhaps Rhaegar was too. Perhaps this is what he read in his scrolls, prompting him to train as a warrior. In hindsight, the prophecy is an obvious reference to the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar was a little older than Robert and made this decision during late childhood, thinking it might apply to him. Maybe he even put things together when he was older, at a time when Robert was already known for his great strength and hammer; there were not that many hammer wielders out there. 

[Jon Fossoway]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

I was reading up on Hugh Hammer recently, the blacksmith's bastard (and one of the two betrayers) who claimed Vermithor during the Dance. There seems to be another prophecy that isn't often mentioned in the fandom, if at all. From the Wiki:

If the soldiers at the time were aware of this prophecy at the time of the Dance, perhaps Rhaegar was too. Perhaps this is what he read in his scrolls, prompting him to train as a warrior. In hindsight, the prophecy is an obvious reference to the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar was a little older than Robert and made this decision during late childhood, thinking it might apply to him. Maybe he even put things together when he was older, at a time when Robert was already known for his great strength and hammer; there were not that many hammer wielders out there. 

I'm not usually keen on knitting intrincate theories on ASOIAF because I don't think George is that complex in his knitting, but that figure of the hammer falling on a dragon fits quite nicely on Robert and Rhaegar. Another reading is that the hammer (as in old first men Hammer of Justice Mudd king) means justice. At the time of Hugh and at the time of Bob I don't think the Targaryen were much loved by the smallfolk, considering Aerys downward spiral into his mental problems and the Targaryens during the Dance, in general, organizing battles that were more like butcheries, that chiefly befell on damaging the smallfolk levies, population and families.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[sifth]

The guy thought he was the chosen one. Turns out he was wrong, when Robert smashed his chest in. 

[James Arryn]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:23 AM, astarkchoice said:

He does win a few tourneys hes a very good jouster and swordsman , top tier in fact...just happned to run into another elite fighter at the trident and someone had to lose!

On reflection the fact hes supposedly pretty AND a great singer of songs for the ladies AND becomes an amazing jouster id how he managed to attract  the horse crazy lyanna ! so he did sorta need to train anyway to fulfil the prophecy !

Yeah, his tourney record is about as good as we ever read about except for volume. He didn’t participate too often, but when he did I think he always at least makes the finals, with a string of great fighters behind him. 
 

Robert and Rhaegar fought for an hour. If you are fighting someone for an hour with medieval weapons, unless one fighter isn’t trying, the only conclusion to draw is they are so incredibly even it will come down to ~ luck. There are factors that were to Robert’s advantage, mostly clear motivation and using the better weapon against the kind of armour they were wearing, but it was also on horseback which you’d think would be an advantage for Rhaegar. Then it’s in a river, so to me, as GRRM is a fan of medieval martial stuff, these are all GRRM trying as hard as he can to demonstrate parity. That Rhaegar managed to wound Robert adds to that. And then Barristan’s speech about a turned rock, etc. And being ~ even with young Robert without being an enraged giant means your skill level is pretty off the charts. 
 

Edit: And re: being pretty, brilliant, singer, great warrior et al might capture Lyanna’s heart but it will also get you a bunch of whatever the opposite of ‘fans’ is, amongst readers and in life. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by James Arryn

[James Arryn]

On 7/20/2023 at 1:42 PM, Mourning Star said:

We are basically told the answer to your question. Not to say you can’t come up with an alternate possible explanation, but Rhaegar thought he was the prince that was promised and so would be destined to wield Lightbringer.

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young

…

The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want tobelieve. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. 

He had changed his mind. 

This is overlooked a lot or wrongly credited to Aemon or w/e, but contrary to this belief that Rhaegar died because he thought himself destined for other things, he changed his mind about his role. Not Aemon, or he’d have said it that way…by the the time of the Trident Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PTWP, not himself. And to come to that conclusion at a young age with virtually no one around to consult, operating from old scrolls with, so far as we know, exactly no one else even thinking about zombie apocalypses…that speaks of a very different kind of man than the one I think you’re suggesting. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by James Arryn

[astarkchoice]

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, his tourney record is about as good as we ever read about except for volume. He didn’t participate too often, but when he did I think he always at least makes the finals, with a string of great fighters behind him. 
 

Robert and Rhaegar fought for an hour. If you are fighting someone for an hour with medieval weapons, unless one fighter isn’t trying, the only conclusion to draw is they are so incredibly even it will come down to ~ luck. There are factors that were to Robert’s advantage, mostly clear motivation and using the better weapon against the kind of armour they were wearing, but it was also on horseback which you’d think would be an advantage for Rhaegar. Then it’s in a river, so to me, as GRRM is a fan of medieval martial stuff, these are all GRRM trying as hard as he can to demonstrate parity. That Rhaegar managed to wound Robert adds to that. And then Barristan’s speech about a turned rock, etc. And being ~ even with young Robert without being an enraged giant means your skill level is pretty off the charts. 
 

Edit: And re: being pretty, brilliant, singer, great warrior et al might capture Lyanna’s heart but it will also get you a bunch of whatever the opposite of ‘fans’ is, amongst readers and in life. 

My impression would be that on horseback rhaegar was by far  the superior jouster but robert with his hammer better if it become a melee/brawl...on foot evens.

Rhaegar probably started strong taking the big man off his horse with lance and trying to follow up and got unhorsed somehow! (hammer hit on the charging   horse ?) They fight and both are skilled so its strength vs speed but as they move and tire and slow down they enter the trident....both are slowed down moving in knee/ankle deep water which  favours the bigger stronger man  thus he lands the killing blow.

The sword vs hammer thing , hammer is much better on horse where its more of a brawl  or in a massed formation but on foot,  just one on one?  roberts oversized hammer (ned can barely lift) would be a major disadvantage if he wasnt soo freaksihly strong and could probably swing it without being slow and stiff or easily tire.

[Tradecraft]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:52 AM, astarkchoice said:

My impression would be that on horseback rhaegar was by far  the superior jouster but robert with his hammer better if it become a melee/brawl...on foot evens.

Rhaegar probably started strong taking the big man off his horse with lance and trying to follow up and got unhorsed somehow! (hammer hit on the charging   horse ?) They fight and both are skilled so its strength vs speed but as they move and tire and slow down they enter the trident....both are slowed down moving in knee/ankle deep water which  favours the bigger stronger man  thus he lands the killing blow.

The sword vs hammer thing , hammer is much better on horse where its more of a brawl  or in a massed formation but on foot,  just one on one?  roberts oversized hammer (ned can barely lift) would be a major disadvantage if he wasnt soo freaksihly strong and could probably swing it without being slow and stiff or easily tire.

Barristan Selmy hints that Rhaegar was a mediocre fighter and jouster. 

He further hints that he dishonorably cheated to help Rhaegar win the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

Barristan Selmy hints that Rhaegar was a mediocre fighter and jouster. 

He further hints that he dishonorably cheated to help Rhaegar win the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

Huh

Where did you get that impression i thoyght he was top flight joust wise

 

Robert def isnt close.to top level he seems generaly uninterested in jousting other than as a spectator

Even cersei had to correct herself (badly)when trying to trash talk margery as robert sucked as jousting

[Tradecraft]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Huh

Where did you get that impression i thoyght he was top flight joust wise

 

Robert def isnt close.to top level he seems generaly uninterested in jousting other than as a spectator

Even cersei had to correct herself (badly)when trying to trash talk margery as robert sucked as jousting

He declined to call Rhaegar a peerless warrior. 

Quote

Daenerys: Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?

Arstan: Your Grace, the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but...
Daenerys: Go on. You may speak freely to me.

Arstan: As you command. A warrior without peer ... those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles

 

I interpreted this differently. It isn't about being a better fighter or jouster. 

It's about his knighthood. His honor. 

He seems to regret doing something dishonorable (which I believe is him losing to Rhaegar on purpose). 

This would rhyme with Lora's Tyrell who cheats at the Hands Tournament. Lora's wears Sapphires mirroring Rhaegar's Rubies. 

 

Quote

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

 

[SaffronLady]

On 7/23/2023 at 9:55 AM, James Arryn said:

Robert and Rhaegar fought for an hour. If you are fighting someone for an hour with medieval weapons, unless one fighter isn’t trying, the only conclusion to draw is they are so incredibly even it will come down to ~ luck. There are factors that were to Robert’s advantage, mostly clear motivation and using the better weapon against the kind of armour they were wearing, but it was also on horseback which you’d think would be an advantage for Rhaegar. Then it’s in a river, so to me, as GRRM is a fan of medieval martial stuff, these are all GRRM trying as hard as he can to demonstrate parity. That Rhaegar managed to wound Robert adds to that. And then Barristan’s speech about a turned rock, etc. And being ~ even with young Robert without being an enraged giant means your skill level is pretty off the charts. 

Lml believes GRRM was also playing with chaoskampf imagery, with a hammer-wielding king killing a dragon in the water. Sort of like Marduk killing Tiamat or YHWH killing Leviathan.