Why does anyone trust the Starks?

[kissdbyfire]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:12 AM, SaffronLady said:

A courageous assumption. For all we know he might enjoy trolling.

I’d like to add that enjoying trolling is definitely a very generous interpretation of behaviour that could be described… differently.

 

[Alden Rothack]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:07 PM, SaffronLady said:

It would be karmic justice if Arya finishes them off, but from a "power to the people" perspective I really want the poor fellows branch of the Faith Militant to kill all the Freys. The obliteration of such a powerful house by the smallfolk would shock Westeros for quite some time, and because they are espoused by the Faith, I wonder what anyone without dragons could do about them.

I'd rather not give religious zealots the PR boost, it is a terrible thing for the people in the long term

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

46 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

I'd rather not give religious zealots the PR boost, it is a terrible thing for the people in the long term

While we're talking about religious zealots, I personally think that the Faceless Men are much scarier than the Faith Militant.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’d like to add that enjoying trolling is definitely a very generous interpretation of behaviour that could be described… differently.

I give people the benefit of doubt until proven otherwise. Hell, I could even rationally explain why going to the Yasukuni Shrine is a very bad idea for anyone, despite all the family history that enrages me when I so much as think of the place. If any single location on earth deserves dragonfire, it's that damn place.

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

I'd rather not give religious zealots the PR boost, it is a terrible thing for the people in the long term

Let the people who come in the long term think their way out of this. Positively speaking, life finds a way. Negatively speaking, Après moi, le déluge.

16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I personally think that the Faceless Men are much scarier than the Faith Militant.

Indeed, but in the face of enemies such as the Others who desecrate death, the FM seem reliable allies.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

While we're talking about religious zealots, I personally think that the Faceless Men are much scarier than the Faith Militant.

There is something sinister about them, no doubt, but I do think they, their influence and power level are somewhat overestimated by the readership. The Faceless Men acting as some kind of deus ex machina in support of some unknowable agenda seems to be a feature of a number of the most crackpot theories.

I don't think the bit in the World book about Aegon's calling off the Dorne war helps with this: "if you don't stop we're going to hire an assassin to kill your son" should by rights be really rather weaksauce as a threat, and the suggestion that this is the kind of thing that woudl have terrified Aegon to the extent visible seems rather ridiculous.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

There is something sinister about them, no doubt, but I do think they, their influence and power level are somewhat overestimated by the readership.

Being able to change your appearance at will and kill anyone with a 100% success rate is an insane power level. They could easily take over the world if they wanted to, and I honestly don't understand why they're not doing it.

[Alester Florent]

51 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Being able to change your appearance at will and kill anyone with a 100% success rate is an insane power level. They could easily take over the world if they wanted to, and I honestly don't understand why they're not doing it.

There may well be a hidden cost we don't yet know about. What we do know, or at least can surmise, is that they demand almost complete abandonment of the individual, to the point where even if they could take over the world, why would they? There's not enough of "them" left to gain any benefit from doing so.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

The Starks are selfish traitors.  Somewhere in Walder's heart he wanted to believe this Robb Stark was a better person than the boy turned out.  However, the reason people like Frey trusted him was because he had little in the way of options.  The Starks had an army camped outside his castle.  What was the old man to do?  He had to deal.  He made the choice he thought would bring the best security and gain for his family. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

However, the reason people like Frey trusted him was because he had little in the way of options.

Quote

"Can I refuse?"

"Not if you wish to cross."

"I consent," Robb said solemnly. He had never seemed more manly to her than he did in that moment. Boys might play with swords, but it took a lord to make a marriage pact, knowing what it meant.

I just prefer to slap the original text in you folks' faces when you speak nonsense. Walder was the one giving terms, not Robb.

[SeanF]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:11 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It wasn't so much trusting the Starks.  The victims of Stark betrayals trusted the honor system.  Oaths are near sacred in Westeros.  Walder applied the higher standards of most houses to the Starks.  Walder assumed that the Starks had the honor of the average family.  He was proven wrong and got cheated by the Starks. 

Sigh …

Walder is the vassal of both Robb (once he becomes king of the Trident) and Edmure Tully, his liege lord.  He violated his obligation of fealty to both men, broke guest right, and spat in the face of the Gods by committing mass murder at a religious ceremony (which a wedding is).

That is why the Sparrows preach against the Red Wedding.  Over and above being a crime, it was an act of appalling blasphemy.

Walder was offered an equivalent bridegroom for Roslin.  His grandson would be Lord of the Riverlands, but he preferred to resort to treacherous murder.

And he doomed his family.

[SeanF]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:12 PM, SaffronLady said:

If Walder wanted that accusation, he should have made Robb swear an oath. Which he didn't.

A courageous assumption. For all we know he might enjoy trolling.

What’s bizarre is that there is stuff to legitimately criticise - like the treatment of some civilians by his soldiers.

Instead, we get bloody Walder Frey!

[Alden Rothack]

On 10/11/2023 at 2:24 PM, SaffronLady said:

Let the people who come in the long term think their way out of this. Positively speaking, life finds a way. Negatively speaking, Après moi, le déluge.

if there are any people left in the long term

On 10/11/2023 at 2:06 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

While we're talking about religious zealots, I personally think that the Faceless Men are much scarier than the Faith Militant.

yes and no, the faceless men are far less likely to affect the lives of most of the population

I can't imagine being on the kill list of a magical assassin but I know the damage people like the High Sparrow can do all too well

[SaffronLady]

35 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

if there are any people left in the long term

/shrugs and looks at contemporary Japan

They openly worship World War 2 war criminals after tanking 2 nukes, I'm sure church militia can't cause worse, much less extinction level events.

[Alden Rothack]

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

/shrugs and looks at contemporary Japan

They openly worship World War 2 war criminals after tanking 2 nukes, I'm sure church militia can't cause worse, much less extinction level events.

you may have a good point there, modern history isn't much of a draw for me