The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Lee-Sensei]

8 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

This is a psychopath trait.

Joffrey would have become even worse than Aerys II had he reached adulthood. Thank God Olenna got rid of him.

This is true. Aerys seemed like a decent guy with outlandish ideas early on that got terrible with time. Joffrey seems to have always been monstrous.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm kind of curious, if this is your stance, how do you explain Venables and Thompson?

There is genetic predisposition ... but social factors - mental and physical trauma - is what causes your brain to process emotions different so you feel less empathy than 'normal people' do. The brain develops through childhood and youth, and the wiring there is very susceptible to the effects of early trauma.

Joff dealing with the cat the way he did is concerning ... but you have to put it into perspective. This is a world where fathers force their seven-year-old sons to watch them execute people with their own hands. It is a world where the same boys casually watch animals and people fuck.

And it would also be a world where animal butchery is happening much closer to home, even in a castle.

So Joffrey doing to the cat what he did isn't *that* surprising. How many executions did he watch already? How many animals did he watch being butchered? How often did he see or hear his father hunting and personally killing and butchering animals? Could be he was just not oriented on the fact that there are pet animals you can't kill as easily as a pig or a deer.

Of course, there might be some genetic factors there in his case. But it is way too easy to say the child was 'born evil'. That is just simplistic nonsense.

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey is actually a lot like Cersei. Robert isn't Joffrey's father (that would be Jaime who knew he was the actual father and was living there) and wanted to discipline him harder, but Cersei said that she'd murder him in his sleep if he did. No. Robert wasn't a great father to his wife's son, but Cersei is responsible for how Joffrey turned out and is credited with it by most people (Robert, Tywin, Kevan, Tyrion, Jaime etc.).

You understand nothing of the topic at hand, do you? Indulging your child doesn't turn them into sadists or psychopaths ... but beating them up can traumatize them. And that can lead to that kind of shit. Not to mention that beating up Joffrey for the cat incident would resolve nothing.

And I know you like to repeat the misogyny of the characters in the books by actually telling us that Robert, Tywin, Kevan, Tyrion, and Jaime do have a clue about good parenting (unintentionally funny in Tywin's and Jaime's case). Those guys blame the mother for her child's problems - just as you do. That is nonsense.

Cersei isn't a great mother, but she didn't give Joff the behavior he shows.

You can make a case that Tywin turned Tyrion into a monster. He murders Shae and Tywin himself because of the lessons his old man taught him. Never show any weakness. But we have no such evidence for Cersei.

[Lee-Sensei]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You understand nothing of the topic at hand, do you? Indulging your child doesn't turn them into sadists or psychopaths ... but beating them up can traumatize them. And that can lead to that kind of shit. Not to mention that beating up Joffrey for the cat incident would resolve nothing.

And I know you like to repeat the misogyny of the characters in the books by actually telling us that Robert, Tywin, Kevan, Tyrion, and Jaime do have a clue about good parenting (unintentionally funny in Tywin's and Jaime's case). Those guys blame the mother for her child's problems - just as you do. That is nonsense.

Cersei isn't a great mother, but she didn't give Joff the behavior he shows.

You can make a case that Tywin turned Tyrion into a monster. He murders Shae and Tywin himself because of the lessons his old man taught him. Never show any weakness. But we have no such evidence for Cersei.

Robert never beat Joffrey. He hit him once for cutting open a pregnant cat. Kids get beaten all of the time in Westeros for a lot less. Theon was beaten for bumping into Old Nan and accidentally knocking her over. Duncan was beaten for stealing a pie. That's normal behaviour for children. Joffrey was cutting open pregnant animals.

It's not misogyny. Cersei's just toxic. They blame Cersei, because Cersei's to blame for Joffrey more than anyone else.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert never beat Joffrey. He hit him once for cutting open a pregnant cat. Kids get beaten all of the time in Westeros for a lot less. Theon was beaten for bumping into Old Nan and accidentally knocking her over. Duncan was beaten for stealing a pie. That's normal behaviour for children. Joffrey was cutting open pregnant animals.

Doesn't mean such things affect all children in the same manner, no?

2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It's not misogyny. Cersei's just toxic. They blame Cersei, because Cersei's to blame for Joffrey more than anyone else.

That is what you say. The truth is, we don't know why Joff is the way he is. But what we do know is that his mother did certainly not teach him to torture and beat up noble girls.

And of course it is misogyny. Those people could also blame Robert. Or they could give actual explanations as to how Cersei was corrupting Joffrey. But they don't. The notion she could ever turn Tommen into a Joffrey-like person is ludicrous. But that's what those people think she will do.

[Lee-Sensei]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Doesn't mean such things affect all children in the same manner, no?

That is what you say. The truth is, we don't know why Joff is the way he is. But what we do know is that his mother did certainly not teach him to torture and beat up noble girls.

And of course it is misogyny. Those people could also blame Robert. Or they could give actual explanations as to how Cersei was corrupting Joffrey. But they don't. The notion she could ever turn Tommen into a Joffrey-like person is ludicrous. But that's what those people think she will do.

Didn't Cersei give women (her allies) to Qyburn to torture? I don't know if she'd be able to corrupt Tommen. His nature isn't the same as Joffrey's, but that's possibly her fault to (but we disagree on the incest thing so I'll leave it there).

[SaffronLady]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is genetic predisposition ... but social factors - mental and physical trauma - is what causes your brain to process emotions different so you feel less empathy than 'normal people' do. The brain develops through childhood and youth, and the wiring there is very susceptible to the effects of early trauma.

Strange. You seem reasonable enough when you take your mind of Cersei.

Though in context, Jon Venables does't seem to have the trauma factors Robert Thompson has (dad who ran away, alchoholic mom etc.).

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Didn't Cersei give women (her allies) to Qyburn to torture? I don't know if she'd be able to corrupt Tommen. His nature isn't the same as Joffrey's, but that's possibly her fault to (but we disagree on the incest thing so I'll leave it there).

Ah, good, you show your true colors there. Incest spawn are abominations.

Cersei sent women to Qyburn who offended her, not allies. Falyse was a big mistake, definitely, but her servant Senelle supposedly betrayed her. If true, she deserves punishment. Not that, of course, but she was not innocent in Cersei's eyes.

12 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Strange. You seem reasonable enough when you take your mind of Cersei.

Though in context, Jon Venables does't seem to have the trauma factors Robert Thompson has (dad who ran away, alchoholic mom etc.).

I don't think it is sensible to like try to judge such cases through online read-ups. But what I know is that trauma leading to or helping you develop psychopathic traits don't have to be overly visible.

Joffrey's biggest issue was the fact that he was a pampered and spoiled prince and then a minor king. The people around him let him do what he want even before he wore the crown, and then it got even worse.

This is to a degree the fault of his parents, but they could not possibly have changed the political system or the general way in which royal children were reared.

If you get down to the bones of it Joffrey's behavior is more fueled and encouraged by the men and women around him - the sycophants and lickspittles and tutors and nannies and knights and grooms, etc. he spend most of his days with. Had Cersei and Robert chosen different people there, the boy might have turned out differently.

Joff's entitlement comes from the fact that he knows he is different than the people who caper to his whims. And he tests out how far he can go. A different regimen there could have changed things to a point. But for that his parents would have to have cared about that. And the guy in charge of everything was Robert, not Cersei. If he had decided, say, to foster Joff with Stannis for a time it would have happened. 

Just think about how much shit the Hound would have told Joff. We hear how fuels Joff's worst traits with his promises of killing the Stark direwolves at Winterfell. He is very bad company for a young boy.

[Lee-Sensei]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, good, you show your true colors there. Incest spawn are abominations.

Cersei sent women to Qyburn who offended her, not allies. Falyse was a big mistake, definitely, but her servant Senelle supposedly betrayed her. If true, she deserves punishment. Not that, of course, but she was not innocent in Cersei's eyes.

No. They're a flip of the coin.

Falyse was definitely her ally.

[Daeron the Daring]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It kind of does though. You can be born with aberrations in the connection(s) between the amygdala and the frontal lobe(s), which can lead to displays of 'psychopathic' behaviour.

Psychopathic behaviour is not psychopathy, mostly because it does not necesarilly lead to psychopathy. Period.

Children cannot be psychopaths. The term is exclusive to adults. Period.

Look up conduct disorder. It's what you'd call psychopathic behaviour in children, and can be a precursor of actual psychopathy.

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm kind of curious, if this is your stance, how do you explain Venables and Thompson?

I'm new to the incident, but it seems to me that the very study that established/establishes the meaning of the words you use shies away/forbids the use of these terms on children, including the two persons you mentioned. Psychology specifically looks into what psychopathic symptoms in children mean.

And it's not like psychopathy/sociopathy is just about cruelty and a lack of remorse. 

Plus, not even GRRM calls him anything more than a classic bully from school, and explicitly nothing more. Take this with a grain of salt thou, sometimes I disagree with George too (mainly when he doesn't know the meaning of the terms he uses, but this is completely irrelevant), so I'm not the best candidate to champion with his words.

I had my peers back in upper elementary 'play' with street dogs, cats, chickens and turkeys in a way that would sometimes lead to the animals' death. It was animal cruelty of criminal level. Many of them are assholes nowadays, but I wouldn't call any of them psychos or anything close to that today, altough they grew up to be adults now.

 

[SaffronLady]

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I'm new to the incident, but it seems to me that the very study that established/establishes the meaning of the words you use shies away/forbids the use of these terms on children, including the two persons you mentioned. Psychology specifically looks into what psychopathic symptoms in children mean.

Very well then. If you insist the concept does not exist, nothing constructive would come of me pushing the issue.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you get down to the bones of it Joffrey's behavior is more fueled and encouraged by the men and women around him - the sycophants and lickspittles and tutors and nannies and knights and grooms, etc. he spend most of his days with. Had Cersei and Robert chosen different people there, the boy might have turned out differently.

And said persons, if Robert's behavior (especially in the cat case) is any measure, are mostly chosen by Cersei. You can't just absolve parents who let other people raise their children of all responsibility if the child turns out problematic.

The Hound is a trusted vassal of Tywin, who just happens to be Cersei's father. If Joffrey spending too much time with him lead to his cruelty, then Cersei still is responsible for not removing him from her son's orbit - which she could, by getting her father to find the Hound another assignment.

We could go round and round with regards to Cersei's direct influence on Joffrey and Cersei's indirect influence on Joffrey, but you've already done the loops and whether it's direct or indirect, both Jaime and Kevan Lannister credit Cersei as the primary influence Joffrey turned out to be the boy he was, which you also know already.

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Psychopathic behaviour is not psychopathy, mostly because it does not necesarilly lead to psychopathy. Period

That's why I said it 'kind of' is. This point you make here:

Quote

No such thing exists.

Makes it sound as though you are totally excluding that someone could be a 'psychopath' due to genetic/biological factors rather than upbringing and that it is based entirely on upbringing, which I disagree with.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

12 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Nitpick, but I don't think Theon's ever been with a prostitute in the books. You're probably thinking of Ros in the show.

I agree that people are often unfair to Sansa, Arya and Catelyn though.

George said that it was rape in a blog? Do you have a link? That would be a very interesting read.

Was Kyra not a prostitute? Trust me, I am never thinking of the show. I watched through the 4th season once…like a decade ago. I’ve read the books 4 times to completion and am currently on my 5th reread. I am not a GoT fan, only an ASOIAF fan. I could be misrembering about Kyra…perhaps she just worked at a bar? Maybe I thought it was just implied that Theon was essentially paying her to be with him. 

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's why I said it 'kind of' is. This point you make here:

Quote

No such thing exists.

Makes it sound as though you are totally excluding that someone could be a 'psychopath' due to genetic/biological factors rather than upbringing and that it is based entirely on upbringing, which I disagree with.

My point referred to the idea of people naturally being born as psychopaths. You tought more of it than I expressed, because I never said or implied that genetics cannot be a factor. It very much is.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

My point referred to the idea of people naturally being born as psychopaths. You tought more of it than I expressed, because I never said or implied that genetics cannot be a factor. It very much is.

When you say there is no such thing as a natural born 'psychopath', it implies that one could not be a psychopath purely due to genetics and resulting biology, which I disagree with.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Was Kyra not a prostitute? Trust me, I am never thinking of the show. I watched through the 4th season once…like a decade ago. I’ve read the books 4 times to completion and am currently on my 5th reread. I am not a GoT fan, only an ASOIAF fan. I could be misrembering about Kyra…perhaps she just worked at a bar? Maybe I thought it was just implied that Theon was essentially paying her to be with him. 

No. Kyra was a serving wench. Theon really doesn’t like prostitutes and he’s an arrogant guy. I don’t think he’s ever payed a woman to be with him (in the books at least).

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

16 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. Kyra was a serving wench. Theon really doesn’t like prostitutes and he’s an arrogant guy. I don’t think he’s ever payed a woman to be with him (in the books at least).

I guess I thought a serving wench was a prostitute. Are they instead merely a waitress? Why call them such a strange way yhen? (probably sexism lol i know the answer)

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

@Lee-Sensei @Lord Varys @Craving Peaches @SaffronLady @Daeron the Daring

I wanted to get everyone involved in the psychopath conversation, if I missed anyone I am sorry.  Anyways, first, I do think children are born with SOME innate tendencies toward selfishness or selflessness (rather than saying psychopath, simply selfishness) HOWEVER I think more serious disorders develop over time and environmental factors and parenting way into it a lot. There is also the fact that psycopaths …like if there is such a thing, don’t have to be murderers. They just have to show no empathy for others and show little caring for others. 

If there is a psychopath in these books, I’d argue it is Petyr Baelish, not Joffrey. Unlike Joffrey, Petyr probably WAS taught right from wrong, probably had less negative influences around him, and was met with pushback rather than lickspittles when he acted selfishly. Give me one example in the book where Petyr gives any shit about any other human being other than himself. And if you want to talk about his treatment of Catlyn. No. His actions and thoughts about Catelyn are actually icing on the cake if you ask me. He is ESPECIALLY selfish when it comes to Cat. Tellingeveryone he took her maidenhead is INCREDIBLY disrespectful. He gets the person who actually loves her and treats her with care (Eddard) killed, and eventually is part of what leads to her death. He never “loved” Catelyn. He was obsessed with her and owning her, which he then transfers to Sansa (which is even creepier as she is a small child). 

Even if I compare him to other more blatantly evil characters, most of them probably could have had signifigant trauma or we know they had signifigant trauma growing up. The Greyjoys seem to generally treat children like crap, but we have direct examples of abuse from older children to younger children from multiple POVs. (This could explaim Euron). We don’t know Ramsay’s childhood, but I’d argue he could have been beaten constantly as a child or experience some other abuse. Cersei was raised by Tywin who is …and objectively horrible father, who is also sexist, and treats women as tools rather than humans. Joffrey was surrounded by bad influences or lickspittles and I do think Cersei gave him awful awful life lessons (Sorry Lord Varys, I indeed think Cersei treated Joffrey different than she treated Tommen. Tommen is her Tyrion (how Tywin treated Tyrion), Joffrey was a weird combo of how Tywin treated her and how he treated Jaime). Basiclaly most og these characters either had constant trauma growing up or were told they were better than everyone else and got almost 0 pushback for being assholes (ie basically taught to be selfish) but Petyr Baelish was probably taught neither. He was probably given pushback we he acted badly, but also not constantly abused. Petyr Baelish, is indeed, in my opinuon, the closest to a “natural born” psychopath in the books, NOT Joffrey. 

[Lee-Sensei]

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I guess I thought a serving wench was a prostitute. Are they instead merely a waitress? Why call them such a strange way yhen? (probably sexism lol i know the answer)

I usually don’t say it, but it might be sexism in this case. Yes. Kyra was basically a waitress.

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

@Lee-Sensei @Lord Varys @Craving Peaches @SaffronLady @Daeron the Daring

I wanted to get everyone involved in the psychopath conversation, if I missed anyone I am sorry.  Anyways, first, I do think children are born with SOME innate tendencies toward selfishness or selflessness (rather than saying psychopath, simply selfishness) HOWEVER I think more serious disorders develop over time and environmental factors and parenting way into it a lot. There is also the fact that psycopaths …like if there is such a thing, don’t have to be murderers. They just have to show no empathy for others and show little caring for others. 

If there is a psychopath in these books, I’d argue it is Petyr Baelish, not Joffrey. Unlike Joffrey, Petyr probably WAS taught right from wrong, probably had less negative influences around him, and was met with pushback rather than lickspittles when he acted selfishly. Give me one example in the book where Petyr gives any shit about any other human being other than himself. And if you want to talk about his treatment of Catlyn. No. His actions and thoughts about Catelyn are actually icing on the cake if you ask me. He is ESPECIALLY selfish when it comes to Cat. Tellingeveryone he took her maidenhead is INCREDIBLY disrespectful. He gets the person who actually loves her and treats her with care (Eddard) killed, and eventually is part of what leads to her death. He never “loved” Catelyn. He was obsessed with her and owning her, which he then transfers to Sansa (which is even creepier as she is a small child). 

Even if I compare him to other more blatantly evil characters, most of them probably could have had signifigant trauma or we know they had signifigant trauma growing up. The Greyjoys seem to generally treat children like crap, but we have direct examples of abuse from older children to younger children from multiple POVs. (This could explaim Euron). We don’t know Ramsay’s childhood, but I’d argue he could have been beaten constantly as a child or experience some other abuse. Cersei was raised by Tywin who is …and objectively horrible father, who is also sexist, and treats women as tools rather than humans. Joffrey was surrounded by bad influences or lickspittles and I do think Cersei gave him awful awful life lessons (Sorry Lord Varys, I indeed think Cersei treated Joffrey different than she treated Tommen. Tommen is her Tyrion (how Tywin treated Tyrion), Joffrey was a weird combo of how Tywin treated her and how he treated Jaime). Basiclaly most og these characters either had constant trauma growing up or were told they were better than everyone else and got almost 0 pushback for being assholes (ie basically taught to be selfish) but Petyr Baelish was probably taught neither. He was probably given pushback we he acted badly, but also not constantly abused. Petyr Baelish, is indeed, in my opinuon, the closest to a “natural born” psychopath in the books, NOT Joffrey. 

The only Greyjoy that I’d say is definitely more evil than Baelish is Euron, although you could make an argument for the Old Way believers, Aeron’s treatment of Falia Flowers in her last moment suggests that he has more humanity than Littlefinger. Right now he’s in the process of killing a small child after murdering his mother and sending Jeyne Poole to the Bolton’s after he and Cersei had her “working” in a brothel.

Tywin was mostly in Kings Lansing during her youth until she was brought to court. Also, most women are viewed as “tools” to make alliances. So are boys to some extent, which is why one of Catelyn’s offers to Walder Frey is Robb. Cersei was treated basically the way that almost every woman in Westeros is and most don’t drown their friends in a well or try to twist off their baby brothers penis in his crib and wish death about the child.

The issue with Joffrey, is that he seems to have been this way very early on. As a toddler, Joffrey cut open a pregnant cat and rooted around inside for the babies. That’s such a sick and twisted thing to do. Most toddlers don’t need to be told not to do that. I’m sure that Cersei was a bad influence on him (she calls that moment “mischief with a cat”), but a lot of Joffrey’s cruelty seems to be innate.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The only Greyjoy that I’d say is definitely more evil than Baelish is Victarion

Oh I don’t know.  I definitely think that Euron is more evil than Baelish.  Probably the most pure evil character in the books, more so than even Ramsay.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Oh I don’t know.  I definitely think that Euron is more evil than Baelish.  Probably the most pure evil character in the books, more so than even Ramsay.

Yeah, meanwhile Victarion is too dumb to be evil.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy