Lethal Ladies, Wantons and Weapons

[Evolett]

This is a catalog of observations I find quite intriguing and have a few thoughts on. Perhaps we can figure out what’s going on. GRRM has given us two pairs of weapons, both female pairs, one pair expressly labeled as “lethal ladies.” The other pair is mentioned numerous times and those blades are no less lethal. We also have one character, Val, whom Jon thinks of as being “lethal” but she isn’t the only lethal actual woman in the books. There are quite a few and some, like Garth’s “lethal ladies,” come in pairs as well. Also of note is the association of these lethal ladies with “wantons” or otherwise what would be regarded as promiscuous behaviour in-world.

A side note: wanton can also refer to willfulness and is used in connection with brutality or cruelty but also exuberance.  

So, let’s take a look at some concrete examples as well as cases that I think fit the motif of the “lethal wanton”  

 

Davos introduces us to the idea of lethal ladies in the Wolf’s Den when he thinks of Garth’s two weapons as such:

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For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderly to send him back to the Wolf’s Den, to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies.

The weapons in question are “The Whore” and “Lady Lu:”

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Once Garth brought his ladies by to introduce them to the dead man. “The Whore don’t look like much,” he said, fondling a rod of cold black iron, “but when I heat her up red-hot and let her touch your cock, you’ll cry for mother. And this here’s my Lady Lu. It’s her who’ll take your head and hands, when Lord Wyman sends down word.” Davos had never seen a bigger axe than Lady Lu, nor one with a sharper edge.

Two seriously wicked weapons. Given a choice, I’d go for Lady Lu. This is obviously an executioner’s weapon with a nice sharp edge that can make a clean end. The same cannot be said of “The Whore.” We also have our first “wanton” association here – the name and the fondling. A red-hot poker on your cock? A first interpretation would be that “the Whore” destroys manhood. Keep that in mind for later.

 

Daario’s “lethal ladies” his “gleaming gold wantons”

Next pair up are the two blades Daario Naharis carries. Daenerys thinks of them as “wantons.” I had not realized just how often they are described in her chapters. They must have symbolic importance:

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He stood with his hands crossed at the wrists, his palms resting on the pommels of his blades; a curving Dothraki arakh on his left hip, a Myrish stiletto on his right. Their hilts were a matched pair of golden women, naked and wanton.

Daario kills his two co-captains with these blades, takes over the Stormcrows and defects from the Yunkish side to support Daenerys’ cause. The following clues are worth noting:

He swears allegiance to Dany with the Dothraki arakh. The only other mention of a Myrish stiletto is the moustache of Jared Frey:

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One of the Freys stepped forward, a knight long and lean of limb, clean-shaved but for a grey mustache as thin as a Myrish stiletto.

Like Lady Lu and the Whore, these weapons differ from each other. One is a curved Dothraki arakh, the other a thin Myrish stiletto.
My guess is the arakh is symbolic of oathkeeping and honour (swearing allegiance) while the stiletto represents treachery and falsehood (Jared Frey’s stiletto mustache).

Before Daario takes his place as a hostage, he places his blades in Dany’s care because he does not want them to “cause mischief amongst the Yunkai”. Does this mean they are now Dany’s to use as she sees fit? And what could that mean storywise?

 

In another scene, Dany becomes aroused and wants to be his wanton after observing him caressing his gleaming women:

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“Where should I escape to?” “Into my bed. Into my arms. Into my heart.” The hilts of Daario’s arakh and stiletto were wrought in the shape of golden women, naked and wanton. He brushed his thumbs across them in a way that was remarkably obscene and smiled a wicked smile.

Dany felt blood rushing to her face. It was almost as if he were caressing her. Would he think me wanton too if I pulled him into bed? He made her want to be his wanton. I should never see him alone. He is too dangerous to have near me.

Here, Dany associates herself with the blades. She desires him and wants to be his “wanton,” knowing very well that he’s dangerous. Does Dany represent one of these blades? If so, which one? With her dragons, Dany can certainly be considered a “lethal lady.” And she is already rumored to be monstrous and to have a voracious sexual appetite (taking a new lover every night – wanton - ) even if this is untrue.

It's possible one of these “golden wantons” represents Cersei. She is “golden” and otherwise fits the bill. Perhaps we can assign the Myrish stiletto to her.

Alternatively, the dangerous twin blades could be telling us something about Nissa Nissa and the forging of Lightbringer. There might be some wordplay going on with “wanton” and “want to.” Daario makes her want to be his wanton, in other words she is willing, just like Nissa Nissa was willing, the twin female blades a nod at the double name - Nissa Nissa. Where would Dany escape to? Into a sword, to become a lethal lady-weapon?

By all means add your thoughts to the interpretation of these pairs.

 

Let’s move on to some other lethal lady pairs, sisters, in this case, and see if they conform to the lethal/wanton/weapon format.

 

Catelyn / Stoneheart and Lysa.

Littlefinger’s claims of having taken Catelyn’s virginity links her to the promiscuous / wanton motif. Lysa did give her maidenhead to LF. The sisters both fall in the “lethal” category – Lysa murders her husband and Stoneheart displays “wanton brutality” in her vengeance.

 

Sansa and Arya

Arya is a lethal lady-weapon, no discussion here. As of the Mercy chapter and her seduction of Raff, she also fulfils the “wanton” requirement. Sansa’s connection to the lethal are the “purple serpents,” the Strangler crystals that killed Joffery. She did not kill him outright, but she was the “vehicle” for the poison. After witnessing LF kissing Sansa, Lysa accuses both Catelyn and Sansa of being “wantons.”

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It was you, just as I thought. You are as wanton as your mother.”

There are other lethal ladies that operate “alone” without an obvious sister partner. Brienne, Cersei, Val, Shae, Pretty Maris, the Sand Snakes. Perhaps the paired female weapons and sisters above show us that there are two different types of weaponized lethal lady, possibly also antagonistic, at odds with each other and that there is a pattern that when deciphered, can be applied to separate individuals.

 

 

Patterns – e.g. Red hot cold iron

Consider “the Whore,” Garth’s hot rod of cold iron that he would touch to Davos’ cock for instance. This one appears to hint at destroying manhood, emasculation, or a man’s masculinity in the psychological sense, bringing ruin, shame and even death upon him, for instance. I would add cuckolding (passing off illegitimate children as heirs) and turning men into fools to this list. Cersei, Shae, Brienne, Lynesse Hightower, Val and Night’s Queen fall into this category. I trust you see the association and will not go into detail here unless someone desires an explanation.

Regarding emasculation – actual gelding of men – we have one example explicitly linked to a mysterious goddess:

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The queen had not known that the eunuchs had a goddess of their own. “Who is this goddess? One of the gods of Ghis?” Grey Worm looked troubled. “The goddess is called by many names. She is the Lady of Spears, the Bride of Battle, the Mother of Hosts, but her true name belongs only to these poor ones who have burned their manhoods upon her altar. We may not speak of her to others. This one begs your forgiveness.”

So, the Unsullied offer their manhoods to an unnamed goddess who may or may not be one of the gods of Ghis, reminding us of Varys whose male parts were also burned upon an altar. Clearly, there is some goddess or supernatural female entity out there that demands sacrifice in the form of masculinity. It’s clear this a warlike goddess and a “Mother of Hosts,” which I find quite intriguing, suggesting an association with the “hosts of the slain” led by the Others against humanity.

Another possible pattern is that of premeditated action versus being used as a pawn, i.e. while one set of weaponized lady acts independently by choosing her own victims – premeditated - the other is used as a pawn. Arya / Sansa and Lysa / Stoneheart provide examples here.

 

Questions

What do you think? What other patterns do you see upon contemplating some of the lethal ladies out there? Are there other instances of opposing pair-formation, for instance Cersei/Margaery or Cersei/Olena?

How does this relate to the theme of ice and fire and what does it mean that Garth and Daario wield these weaponized ladies?

[Loose Bolt]

One candidate for that unnamed goddess is Artemis (Cybele?). After all priests of Artemis in Ephesus were eunuchs who had sacrificed their testicles to that goddess.

[LongRider]

On 9/16/2023 at 12:58 PM, Evolett said:

Sansa’s connection to the lethal are the “purple serpents,” the Strangler crystals that killed Joffery. She did not kill him outright, but she was the “vehicle” for the poison. After witnessing LF kissing Sansa, Lysa accuses both Catelyn and Sansa of being “wantons.”

If one looks at who Sansa did not 'kill outright', it's quite a long list of 'Sansa adjacent' deaths. There are several of these deaths around her, shall we take a look?

Mycah the butcher's boy.  One might say the situation that caused Mycah's death was a team effort of not just the Stark girls, but Cersei and the Hound.  Joffrey's showing off for Sansa and Arya's attempt to get Joffery to leave steamrolled into a situation which later caused Mycah's death by the Hound.  While Sansa did claim she forgot what happened, even if she remembered it didn't matter, poor Mycah would still have been murdered. Sansa didn't kill Mycah; she was part of the incident that led to his death. 

Ser Hugh of the Vale.  Ser Hugh managed to get Ser Gregor Clegane's lance shoved under his gorget, killing him and he fell right in front of Sansa and Jenye Poole.  Jayne when into hysterics, while Sansa remained cool as a cucumber.  She did not kill Ser Hugh, she was however, there and Ser Hugh's death was Sansa adjacent. 

Time passes for Sansa without any deaths that I can remember, until the death of King Joffery.  As mentioned above, she did not directly kill Joffery but unknowingly supplies the poison that did.

Next up, or perhaps down, is Ser Dontos Hollard.  This complex death starts first with Sansa saving Ser Dontos from death by convincing Joffery not to kill him for being sloppy drunk at Joffrey's name day tourney.  Later, she seals his fate by meeting him in the Godswood after he sends her an unsigned note.  During their meetings, Dontos occasionally plants sloppy kisses on Sansa which she allows.  Is she being wanton?  He helps Sansa escape King's Landing to Littlefinger's ship, but alas for poor Dontos, LF kills him after Sansa is safe on the ship.  Another Sansa adjacent death.

Time passes and snow falls in the Vale.  In that snow, Sansa, with the help of Littlefinger, builds a snow castle, Winterfell.   LF can't resist himself and kisses Sansa, which is seen by Lady Lysa.  Lysa gets upset by this and tries to throw Sansa out of the Moon Door after calling both Sansa and Cat 'wanton'.  Meanwhile, Marillion plays and sings to cover Lysa's loud accusations and Sansa's screaming.  LF saves Sansa, then throws Lysa out the Moon Door.  He has Marillion arrested and put into a sky cell which he falls out of to his death.  Two Sansa adjacent deaths.  

While Sansa is not directly lethal, death happens around her.  Will there be more Sansa adjacent deaths? With a tourney coming up soon in the Vale, there might be. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by LongRider
name correction

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, LongRider said:

If one looks at who Sansa did not 'kill outright', it's quite a long list of 'Sansa adjacent' deaths. There are several of these deaths around her, shall we take a look?

Mycah the butcher's boy.  One might say the situation that caused Mycah's death was a team effort of not just the Stark girls, but Cersei and the Hound.  Joffrey's showing off for Sansa and Arya's attempt to get Joffery to leave steamrolled into a situation which later caused Mycah's death by the Hound.  While Sansa did claim she forgot what happened, even if she remembered it didn't matter, poor Mycah would still have been murdered. Sansa didn't kill Mycah; she was part of the incident that led to his death. 

Ser Hyle Hunt of the Vale.  Ser Hyle managed to get Ser Gregor Clegane's lance shoved under his gorget, killing him and he fell right in front of Sansa and Jenye Poole.  Jayne when into hysterics, while Sansa remained cool as a cucumber.  She did not kill Ser Hyle, she was however, there and Ser Hyle's death was Sansa adjacent. 

Time passes for Sansa without any deaths that I can remember, until the death of King Joffery.  As mentioned above, she did not directly kill Joffery but unknowingly supplies the poison that did.

Next up, or perhaps down, is Ser Dontos Hollard.  This complex death starts first with Sansa saving Ser Dontos from death by convincing Joffery not to kill him for being sloppy drunk at Joffrey's name day tourney.  Later, she seals his fate by meeting him in the Godswood after he sends her an unsigned note.  During their meetings, Dontos occasionally plants sloppy kisses on Sansa which she allows.  Is she being wanton?  He helps Sansa escape King's Landing to Littlefinger's ship, but alas for poor Dontos, LF kills him after Sansa is safe on the ship.  Another Sansa adjacent death.

Time passes and snow falls in the Vale.  In that snow, Sansa, with the help of Littlefinger, builds a snow castle, Winterfell.   LF can't resist himself and kisses Sansa, which is seen by Lady Lysa.  Lysa gets upset by this and tries to throw Sansa out of the Moon Door after calling both Sansa and Cat 'wanton'.  Meanwhile, Marillion plays and sings to cover Lysa's loud accusations and Sansa's screaming.  LF saves Sansa, then throws Lysa out the Moon Door.  He has Marillion arrested and put into a sky cell which he falls out of to his death.  Two Sansa adjacent deaths.  

While Sansa is not directly lethal, death happens around her.  Will there be more Sansa adjacent deaths? With a tourney coming up soon in the Vale, there might be. 

Set Hyle Hunt did not get killed at the tournament, not is he from the Vale.  That was Ser Hugh of the Vale.  You had me confused for a bit there.  Hyle is a household knight for Lord Tarly who is currently accompanying Brienne.

Brienne killed the three Bloody Mummers at Crackclaw Point as a direct result of her search for Sansa.  I suppose you can count those as Sansa adjacent if you want.

To the OP, another example of a lethal wanton might be Asha Greyjoy.  She is certainly lethal and a bit of a wanton, too.

[Evolett]

16 hours ago, LongRider said:

If one looks at who Sansa did not 'kill outright', it's quite a long list of 'Sansa adjacent' deaths. There are several of these deaths around her, shall we take a look?

This is really great , thank you! Upon further contemplation, Sansa being adjacent to these deaths reminds me very much of the legend of Qarth. In the tale, the moon wanders too close to the sun, breaking apart from the sun's heat to release dragons.

Being adjacent to the deaths occurring around her, Sansa is in the role of the sun. In several instances the victims have distinct moon-associations as well. 

 

- First there are the Vale victims. Ser Hugh wears a cloak patterned with cresent moons that turn red with his blood:

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His cloak was blue, the color of the sky on a clear summer’s day, trimmed with a border of crescent moons, but as his blood seeped into it, the cloth darkened and the moons turned red, one by one.

 

- Lysa is the one most poignantly liked to the "cracking moon" since she literally falls from a height after being thrown out the Moon Door. 

- Mycah may also fit the breaking moon symbolism. His body was literally cut into pieces.

- Dontos may also be a "moon character." After being made a fool by Sansa, he's sobered by his "near brush" with death

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“Did you hear my lady, Dontos? From this day on, you’re my new fool. You can sleep with Moon Boy and dress in motley.” Ser Dontos, sobered by his near brush with death, crawled to his knees.

 

and gets to sleep with Moon Boy. 

- I've never thought of Joff as a moon figure but perhaps he is. He does give Sansa moonstone jewelry. Many associate Sansa with the moonstones but maybe the point is they come from Joff because he's the moon character. Of note in this sun - moon symbolism is that Sansa is "kissed by fire" and that Joff demands that Sansa kiss his sword (to power it up?)

 

The scene where Lady Olena questions Sansa on Joff's character adds to the image of Sansa as an egg/ moon-cracking figure, complete with symbolic "dragons" escaping from the egg. This scene directly references the legend of Qarth imo:

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Butterbumps arrived before the food, dressed in a jester’s suit of green and yellow feathers with a floppy coxcomb. An immense round fat man, as big as three Moon Boys, he came cartwheeling into the hall, vaulted onto the table, and laid a gigantic egg right in front of Sansa. “Break it, my lady,” he commanded. When she did, a dozen yellow chicks escaped and began running in all directions.

 

 Note Butterbumps appears to be a sun-figure (yellow butter as big as three "moons,") capable of "bumping." I rather think he's a symbol of summer fertility (green and gold motley, the coxcomb an allusion to a horned lord). He doesn't crack  the egg himself but lays it in directly in front of sun-Sansa for this purpose, emphasizing her role in the breaking of moon-eggs.

 

House Martell also has a prominent sun-sigil and the sand-snakes are also included in the list of lethal ladies. I'm reminded of the writings of Daeron the Young Dragon:

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 “The arms of House Martell display the sun and spear, the Dornishman’s two favored weapons,” the Young Dragon had once written in his boastful Conquest of Dorne, “but of the two, the sun is the more deadly.”

 

We have two weapons, the sun and the spear. House Stark is linked to "Sunspear" through Arya naming her direwolf after Nymeria, herself the "sun" component of the sigil (Rhoynish sun). So the sun and spear here could also be akin to Sansa (sun) and Arya (spear / needle). And of these two, the sun is the more deadly. How interesting!

 

So how would this relate to our lethal lady weapons in the OP? I'm thinking Garth's red hot iron rod relates to the fiery sun whose touch or "kiss" destroys. I say relate because the hot iron rod is a tool rendered lethal by its exposure to fire, rather than being the actual source of that heat. In analogy, the sun enables additional weapons to deadly effect and perhaps for specific purposes such as, in this case, "destroying" men. 

 

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

To the OP, another example of a lethal wanton might be Asha Greyjoy.  She is certainly lethal and a bit of a wanton, too.

Agreed, though I have trouble placing her as a "lethal weapon" because she hasn't really been involved in any important deaths so far. In fact she lost out to Stannis and his "tree warriors." I've been wondering whether her "fire is spent," signified by her name, Asha / ashes. Despite her capabilities, she may not be much of a "weapon." She does birth a "dirk," a knife that's been involved in at least one important killing - Craster. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Evolett

[Evolett]

46 minutes ago, Evolett said:

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

To the OP, another example of a lethal wanton might be Asha Greyjoy.  She is certainly lethal and a bit of a wanton, too.

Agreed, though I have trouble placing her as a "lethal weapon" because she hasn't really been involved in any important deaths so far. In fact she lost out to Stannis and his "tree warriors." I've been wondering whether her "fire is spent," signified by her name, Asha / ashes. Despite her capabilities, she may not be much of a "weapon." She does birth a "dirk," a knife that's been involved in at least one important killing - Craster.

Just recalled something significant Asha said that relates to the deadly sun/moon imagery in my previous post:

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Tris, don some mail, it’s time you tried out that sweet sword of yours.” When she saw how pale he was, she pinched his cheek. “Splash some blood upon the moon with me, and I promise you a kiss for every kill.”

 

Asha is in the role of the sun here. Promising a kiss for every kill alludes to requiring a sacrifice before she's willing to engage in that "kiss" or "bumping" into the moon. 

[LongRider]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

Set Hyle Hunt did not get killed at the tournament, not is he from the Vale.  That was Ser Hugh of the Vale.  You had me confused for a bit there. 

Dog gone it!  I looked him up and still screwed up!  Thanks for the correction!    

[LongRider]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Brienne killed the three Bloody Mummers at Crackclaw Point as a direct result of her search for Sansa.  I suppose you can count those as Sansa adjacent if you want.

While they are not directly adjacent, since Brienne has sworn a vow to Lady Cat to find her daughters, hmmmm.  I like this thought, but don't know how to answer.   

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, Evolett said:

Being adjacent to the deaths occurring around her, Sansa is in the role of the sun. In several instances the victims have distinct moon-associations as well. 

- First there are the Vale victims. Ser Hugh wears a cloak patterned with cresent moons that turn red with his blood:   I like the moon symbolism, good catch!

Quote

His cloak was blue, the color of the sky on a clear summer’s day, trimmed with a border of crescent moons, but as his blood seeped into it, the cloth darkened and the moons turned red, one by one.

 

- Lysa is the one most poignantly liked to the "cracking moon" since she literally falls from a height after being thrown out the Moon Door.  She was cracking up mentally, and got too close to Sansa's sun, and ended cracked up at the bottom of the tower.  

- Mycah may also fit the breaking moon symbolism. His body was literally cut into pieces.  Poor Mycha. 

- Dontos may also be a "moon character." After being made a fool by Sansa, he's sobered by his "near brush" with death and gets to sleep with Moon Boy.   Poor Dontos, ended up blotted out by Sansa's sun.

- I've never thought of Joff as a moon figure but perhaps he is. He does give Sansa moonstone jewelry. Many associate Sansa with the moonstones but maybe the point is they come from Joff because he's the moon character. Of note in this sun - moon symbolism is that Sansa is "kissed by fire" and that Joff demands that Sansa kiss his sword (to power it up?)  With Joffrey, I would suggest that the moon is associated with lunatics, that fits him.  

Great insights Evolett!   

[LongRider]

And for you wordsmiths out there, I looked up the meaning of the name Sansa and found this:

User Submitted Meanings

1. A submission from Bosnia and Herzegovina says the name Sansa means "Praise, charm".
2. A submission from Massachusetts, U.S. says the name Sansa means "Praise or charm".
3. A submission from New Jersey, U.S. says the name Sansa means "Praise".
4. According to a user from Maldives, the name Sansa is of Indian (Sanskrit) origin and means "Charm".
5. A user from Australia says the name Sansa is of Sanskrit origin and means "Princess".
6. A user from Canada says the name Sansa means "Apple; red".
7. A user from Australia says the name Sansa means "Goddess".
8. A user from Georgia, U.S. says the name Sansa means "'Sun' in Russian". <<<<
9. According to a user from Nepal, the name Sansa is of English origin and means "Gift of god".

From here:  What Does The Name Sansa Mean?

[Sandy Clegg]

On 9/16/2023 at 8:58 PM, Evolett said:

So, the Unsullied offer their manhoods to an unnamed goddess who may or may not be one of the gods of Ghis, reminding us of Varys whose male parts were also burned upon an altar. Clearly, there is some goddess or supernatural female entity out there that demands sacrifice in the form of masculinity. It’s clear this a warlike goddess and a “Mother of Hosts,” which I find quite intriguing, suggesting an association with the “hosts of the slain” led by the Others against humanity.

Nice thread idea! Emasculation  - removing the male private parts - is a theme that George has drawn on since the very first page:

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"We have a long ride before us," Gared pointed out. "Eight days, maybe nine. And night is falling."

Ser Waymar Royce glanced at the sky with disinterest. "It does that every day about this time. Are you unmanned by the dark, Gared?" - AGOT, Prologue

To be literally unmanned is to be castrated, of course. And Gared has a lot of similarities to another castration figure, Theon, with his missing fingers and toes.

Note it's 'the dark' which Ser Waymar suggests as the emasculating figure. Now, Gared is no eunuch but he does have missing ears, which parallels Myrcella who is attacked by the dark (Darkstar). I'm not sure I'd call him wanton, though.

Then we have Shagga, of the Stone Crows, who is constantly threatening to feed people's cocks to the goats and keeps his axes sharp enough to shave with. His name definitely has 'wanton' connotations, too, as a metaphorical 'shagger'. And he even has some female symbolism, as with this exchange in ADWD:

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Ben: Shagga, did you say? Is that a woman's name?
Tyrion: His teats are big enough. Next time we meet I'll peek beneath his breeches to be sure.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Sandy Clegg