Was Doran smart or did he just wasted a oportunity?

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, I think Viserys is a horrible abuser...but he was not born bad, or born crazy.

That's not what I said, or mean. By saying "madness was his destiny" I mean that he would have become mad in adulthood since he was showing signs of madness at an early age, not that he was mad since birth or childhood. You said that most bullies were abused in childhood, I might agree with this statement but that doesn't mean it's always the case and I also don't believe Viserys was abused by his father, otherwise Barristan would have told us, one way or another.

Whatever trauma he had, it has nothing to do with any abuse by his father, you might make a case with what happened at Essos though. But that doesn't change the fact that he was prone to madness and I will never pity him nor any other bully, good for you if you can do that, I don't.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

That's not what I said, or mean. By saying "madness was his destiny" I mean that he would have become mad in adulthood since he was showing signs of madness at an early age, not that he was mad since birth or childhood. You said that most bullies were abused in childhood, I might agree with this statement but that doesn't mean it's always the case and I also don't believe Viserys was abused by his father, otherwise Barristan would have told us, one way or another.

Whatever trauma he had, it has nothing to do with any abuse by his father, you might make a case with what happened at Essos though. But that doesn't change the fact that he was prone to madness and I will never pity him nor any other bully, good for you if you can do that, I don't.

I've heard this "Barristan" or "Jaime" would have known about the abuse thing used for other cases...and I think it ignores that in our very real life, people often don't know about abuse that is happening. My mom was a social worker when I was a child, and abuse was often not obvious at all. I don't think Barristan (or any other guard) would necessarily know about abuse all the time. Also, I can think of one form of abuse that people would not necessarily call abuse. Did Viserys ever witness any of the horrible things his father did? Like, we see Bran witnessing Eddard executing the person from the Night's Watch...is it possible that Viserys witnessed any of these horrible acts? He may have even been ...training Viserys. Didn't Aerys actually want Viserys to be his heir instead of Rhaegar? 

Also, what exactly did Viserys do that showed us signs of his madness? I don't believe Barristan says this in his POV at all, and you are referring to a single line in ASoS, which contained no other details. 

[Willam Stark]

17 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

and I think it ignores that in our very real life, people often don't know about abuse that is happening.

This is not real life man, but a fictional world which emulates more or less 13th/14th-century England.

You cannot use modern standards to analyze the story.

22 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

people often don't know about abuse that is happening.

Barristan was living with them and Viserys was under the watch of the Kingsguard day and night, on Aerys' orders.

He would have known if it was the case. Besides Viserys himself that his father's madness was a lie told by the Usurper and his dogs, that doesn't sound like a child abused by his father.

27 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Didn't Aerys actually want Viserys to be his heir instead of Rhaegar? 

He made Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death, he thought that Dornishmen betrayed him.

42 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I don't believe Barristan says this in his POV at all, and you are referring to a single line in ASoS, which contained no other details. 

Not just a single line

Quote

She turned to Ser Barristan. "You protected my father for many years, fought beside my brother on the Trident, but you abandoned Viserys in his exile and bent your knee to the Usurper instead. Why? And tell it true."

"Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a . . . a good knight . . . chivalrous, brave . . . he spared my life, and the lives of many others . . . Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and . . . forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth . . . even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did."

"His father's son?" Dany frowned. "What does that mean?"

The old knight did not blink. "Your father is called 'the Mad King' in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?"

"Viserys did." The Mad King. "The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs." The Mad King. "It was a lie."

"Why ask for truth," Ser Barristan said softly, "if you close your ears to it?" He hesitated, then continued. "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . ."

<...>

"Forgive me, Your Grace. It was only . . . now that you know who I am . . ." The old man hesitated. "A knight of the Kingsguard is in the king's presence day and night. For that reason, our vows require us to protect his secrets as we would his life. But your father's secrets by rights belong to you now, along with his throne, and . . . I thought perhaps you might have questions for me."

Questions? She had a hundred questions, a thousand, ten thousand. Why couldn't she think of one? "Was my father truly mad?" she blurted out. Why do I ask that? "Viserys said this talk of madness was a ploy of the Usurper's . . ."

"Viserys was a child, and the queen sheltered him as much as she could. Your father always had a little madness in him, I now believe. Yet he was charming and generous as well, so his lapses were forgiven. His reign began with such promise . . . but as the years passed, the lapses grew more frequent, until . . ."

There is enough material to understand that Viserys was following the path of Aerys, madness here.

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys was miserable, there is no excuse

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

Not just a single line

There is enough material to understand that Viserys was following the path of Aerys, madness here.

Your quote actually confirms it was a single line. The rest is all about Arys, and as I suspected he doesn't even explain what Viserys did that caused him to believe this. 

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

This is not real life man, but a fictional world which emulates more or less 13th/14th-century England.

Yes, it would be...easier in pre-modern time to abuse to go unnoticed then in modern times. We have CCTV cameras, we live in much more enclosed spaces, there are just...more of us around all the time. The fact that people didn't know abuse was happening....is kind of my point. Some abusers are obvious, some are not. Many times people don't believe the victims of abuse when the abusers are better at hiding their abuse. Not that I think Arys is like...trying to to hide his abuse, but...Barristan not mentioning abuse honestly...proves nothing. Barristan said one comment about Viserys once...not even in his POV. You are relying on a single sentence in a single book as proof that Barristan would have told us everything, and I do not think that is a reliable way of deciding if something happened or didn't happen. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Viserys was miserable, there is no excuse

Nothing is an excuse. This was all a response I believe in fact to the fact that you said that Viserys was the worst Targaryen. That is where this all began. Then Lee-Sensei said that Viserys had bad circumstances, followed by sifth saying that circumstances don't matter essentially, at which point I jumped on board. My point has never been that Viserys is a good person, or that Viserys actions are excusable. They aren't and he was a horribly abusive brother...however, that wasn't my point. Viserys's circumstances..do effect how he turned out. My point is he wasn't born evil, or was destined to be mad, or anything like that. He could have been different given different circumstances. Taht has always been my point. 

Also, a note King Aerys. You, well your namesake, they were actually the most horrible Targaryen in my opinion, not Viserys. Viserys didn't burn people alive for fun, and Viserys never planned to burn down an entire city in spite. Aerys was the worst Targaryen. 

[astarkchoice]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:34 AM, Arthur Peres said:

We all know Doran took no sides in the war of the five kings. We also know that he wants revenge of Tywin, by his own words he wanted to strip Tywin of everything that he held dear and only kill him after that. It's also clear that his revenge cannot be put in pratice without war.

During the War of the Five Kings, the Lannisters were surrouded in all fronts, they were facing multiple foes in multiple fronts. Jaime was a hostage, Tywin was cut off from the West, part of the mercenary hired by Tywin like a Tyrosh company and the trash under Vargo Hoat saw his weakness and changed sides. Everything was going bad for the Lannisters.

Tyrion even feared that Dorne could support one of the pretenders and gave them a free hostage in Myrcella.

Doran choose to sit on his hands, obey commands from Tyrion in placing his armies as a threat to lords under Stannis, they helped the Lannisters in ther war even if by declaration only. After that many set backs the Lannisters were able to win the war with the Tyrell alliance, they put down most of their enemies, and their position now is strong as ever. 

Doran lost tons of face by keeping the peace, his people wanted war, his plans after that are one big blunder after another. From Oberyn to Quentyn, even Arianne seems to be heading towards another blunder, and he will be fighting a war soon enough.

If Doran is willing to take the risk and support the Golden Company why not take the risk with one of the pretenders in the war of the five kings ? 

So was Doran smart in staying out of the war or did he waste a perfect oportunity to crush Tywin ? And if he did waste his chance who would be the better candidate to support ? 

We see a constant theme of asoiaf is plans going awry

Its emphasised a few times doran actualy cares for ordinary kids and people thus he wants to avoid all out war if he can, he wants clean surgical.strike revenge and to that end we hesr of him.building his rep aa a reasonable ie the grass to the vipers snake!  He has his own plans the wot5k didnt fit into that...the mycella deal did give him a hostage and a reason to put his men up in the passes (thus if the viper needed avenging or if he provoked the lannsiters to attack theyd be waiting for an easy ambush)

So hes smart but he delays too long and the situation on the ground keeps changing thus he needs to keep adapting his planning

. The old adage of perfection is the enemy of good fits his style of thinking.

Edited October 6, 2023 by astarkchoice

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys III is the worst Targaryen, he was actually privileged, noble houses from Essos gave him assistance, Viserys II learned the skills as a ruler when he was a slave and he was younger than the Beggar King, Daemon Blackfyre won a tourney at the age of 12, Rhaegar was considered intelligent because he started reading books at early age, Maegor defeated seasoned warriors when he was very young, the Beggar King was miserable, that's it, he is one of the worst, Aegon IV was skilled with lance and sword and he was considered one of the worst

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Viserys III is the worst Targaryen, he was actually privileged, noble houses from Essos gave him assistance, Viserys II learned the skills as a ruler when he was a slave and he was younger than the Beggar King, Daemon Blackfyre won a tourney at the age of 12, Rhaegar was considered intelligent because he started reading books at early age, Maegor defeated seasoned warriors when he was very young, the Beggar King was miserable, that's it, he is one of the worst, Aegon IV was skilled with lance and sword and he was considered one of the worst

Lol, and Aerys II? You conveniently avoided him. Defend him ; Go. 

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys III was like his father. 

King Aerys II is the Ramsay of House Targaryen, the abuse Rhaella suffered is similar to the things Ramsay did to Jeyne Poole

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

50 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

King Aerys II is the Ramsay of House Targaryen

I'm not sure I agree on this one. Ramsay might be just as cruel, but he is way more pragmatic in his cruelty than Aerys was.

[KingAerys_II]

Both make cruel acts believing people will obey them because of fear, people in the North dislike Ramsay and don't accept his cruelty, one of the Manderly daughters stated Ramsay was mad and they would never accept him for his cruelty, even Roose warns Ramsay about this, he is repeating the same mistake Aerys made

Edited October 7, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Willam Stark]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:07 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Your quote actually confirms it was a single line.

I gave you the line AND the context of this line. Basically, Viserys was like Aerys even as a child, who had madness in him.

Don't need to have 160 IQ to understand that Viserys showed signs of madness as well.

On 10/6/2023 at 5:07 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, it would be...easier in pre-modern time to abuse to go unnoticed then in modern times.

Your speculation is not supported by the text, which is all I care about in this discussion.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

I gave you the line AND the context of this line. Basically, Viserys was like Aerys even as a child, who had madness in him.

Don't need to have 160 IQ to understand that Viserys showed signs of madness as well.

Your speculation is not supported by the text, which is all I care about in this discussion.

Neither is yours. You are using the absence of information as proof. Your conclusion is also not supported, we are both theorizing. You gave the line, the line did not support or prove what you claimed it did. You had a lack of information and acted like you had a lot. It's like if someone said to me, "I have proof the Covid vaccine isn't real, I caught Covid even though I tookk it." That is not actual proof. You failed to prove anything. Barristan said one line, and he didn't even explain WHAT Viserys did that he took as proof of Viserys showing signs of madness. It doesn't take 160 IQ to realize that you don't have proof, although you are acting like you do. If you wrote a University level essay with this "proof", you would get an F. 

Edit : Also, there is no point in continuing this. We disagree. You are just repeating yourself now.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[sweetsunray]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:34 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Since most adult abusers (which Viserys is) experience abuse in childhood, it is also quite possible that Aerys either directly or indirectly was abusive to Viserys (considering his personality, this wouldn't be shocking at all). 

A claim that needs far more nuance. Self-reported experience of child abuse is 6 times higher with adult abusers than the base population. But also the majority of those who have experienced abuse as a child do not become abusers themselves as adults, and only a minority (30%) become abusers themselves.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A claim that needs far more nuance. Self-reported experience of child abuse is 6 times higher with adult abusers than the base population. But also the majority of those who have experienced abuse as a child do not become abusers themselves as adults, and only a minority (30%) become abusers themselves.

I mean I wasn't claiming everyone who experiences abuse becomes an abuser. I experienced abuse. I am not an abuser. 

Based on the fact that I think we agree about most things on this forum (or just the fact I often agree with your posts), I think perhaps you misunderstood my post.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys was mad and cruel, he was quiet miserable, like the father

[sweetsunray]

55 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean I wasn't claiming everyone who experiences abuse becomes an abuser. I experienced abuse. I am not an abuser. 

I know you didn't, and your claim was strictly speaking correct, but could be easily misunderstood. I was just adding nuance by pointing out that while having experienced or witness abuse as a child is a factor, the majority of abuse victims do not become abusers. This means it's not just nurture, but also partially nature, which makes sense since certain disorders linked to abusive behavior have genetical components. So, let's say we have an abusive parent with a genetically tied disorder and three children, you probably end up with two normal empathic abused children who do not become abusive as an adult, while the third may have the relevant passed on genes from the abusive parent (nature) and the witnessed or experienced abuse ends up amplifying that (nurture). Whereas good healthy parenting might have nurtured the third child to deal with the genetical limitations better, and even expand limited empathical abilities.

So, you're both right: Viserys inherited some stuff of his father that Rhaegar and Dany didn't, and this put him at a disadvantage to deal with life, but he was also nurtured by his father to be abusive and then his shitty life as a child and young teen only aggrevated it.

Now, I do think Viserys' shitty life is to be taken with some grain of salt. It was more like Dany's experience in Qarth when she lives in Xaro's palace. They were guests with merchant princes, with none of them providing true stabilty let alone material support for an invasion of Westeros. Viserys was like Xalabar in the Free Cities: an interesting guest to introduce to your other guests as entertainment, but nobody caring about his royal aspirations in his far away home. And sometimes, they stayed too long and became viable puppets for political intrigue only related to the Free City's political games, like Xalabar is a convenient victim of Cersei's plot to bring Margaery down.

Edited October 8, 2023 by sweetsunray

[KingAerys_II]

Of course Viserys was able to conquer nothing

[KingAerys_II]

Edric Dayne is 13 and he is currently living in the hell of the Riverlands, he was the squire of a zombie, it's the behavior of Viserys that makes him a delusional fool, the Dayne kid is the Lord of Starfall, descendant of King's, and he has not problem to join baseborn people or to obey to older people