Random Thoughts on Robb and Theon

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robb didn't have a choice. He needed to move quickly and Walder Frey held all of the cards. Also, Arya was missing as far as they knew (I believe). So that was a promise that would very likely never be fulfilled as far as Walder Frey was concerned. I agree that it was an overreach. Arya was matched to someone far below her since he was the 22nd son of Walder Frey (iirc). Robb marrying a Frey girl was a good idea though. Especially when he became the King of the North and the Trident.

Robb also couldn't promise Edmure's hand. He was a prisoner of Jaime Lannister at the time and he was of equal status to Robb. If a scenario where Robb offers Edmure and Walder agrees, Edmure would be fully within his rights to refuse, since he never gave his word in the first place.

Robb should have tried to make an alliance with the Reach, but the Tyrells and Redwynes aren't that interested in the North (they said that Balon should just have it in the Small Council meeting). They wanted a Queen. That's why there were plans to marry Margaery off to Robert, then Renly and then Joffrey. He could try with Arianne too, but Doran would have refused. Just like he refused Edmure. Robb didn't know that though and he should have made offers. Promise them justice for Elia and her kids and death to the Lannisters.

The Vale Lords wouldn't openly defy Lysa. To leave the Vale you need to cross Arryn lands and she wouldn't allow it. I don't think they'd declare for Robb either. Some of them wanted to ally with him, but even among the Lords Declarent, some were more favourable to the Baratheons. But yes. Robb definitely should have tried harder. He sent an envoy to Renly, sent ravens to the Lysa and sent Theon to Balon, but that's about it. Tbf, Lysa should have helped them though. They're family and she helped get them into this mess in the first place (even if she was being manipulated by Littlefinger). I have some sympathy for her, but she's one of the worst sisters in these books.

Honestkly I just read Lysa’s final chapter…and she is just an awful human being. Everything is so small scale, but her selfishness is on par with the best of them (by best i mean most selfish). She threatens to murder her niece. Granted Lysa is not mentally well, clearly, but good lord. She essentially kicked off theWar of 5 Kings…because Petyr Baelish asked her to. And she is just …okay with that. Starting a gigantic war. She gives 0 shits about the results of her actions or literally anything other than her son and Petyr. Lysa reminds me of students who do something horrible to another student, that student suffers and when I talk to the first student about how their actions led to this, tjey shrug and look bored, or even say something like, “Why should I care?” 

[Lee-Sensei]

17 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestkly I just read Lysa’s final chapter…and she is just an awful human being. Everything is so small scale, but her selfishness is on par with the best of them (by best i mean most selfish). She threatens to murder her niece. Granted Lysa is not mentally well, clearly, but good lord. She essentially kicked off theWar of 5 Kings…because Petyr Baelish asked her to. And she is just …okay with that. Starting a gigantic war. She gives 0 shits about the results of her actions or literally anything other than her son and Petyr. Lysa reminds me of students who do something horrible to another student, that student suffers and when I talk to the first student about how their actions led to this, tjey shrug and look bored, or even say something like, “Why should I care?” 

She is pretty awful. Obviously trying to kill Sansa was deeply immoral. I'd probably say that she's the 4th biggest participant in starting the Wot5K, although I'm not sure how much she put together. She's clearly not well. When she meets Sansa on one hand she expresses sympathy for her and Catelyn, but the next moment she's trying to kill her. She's really messed up. And yes. That's a good analogy. I feel a lot of sympathy for Robert Arryn, because he had a terrible mom and he's young enough that I think he can still be fixed by someone like Yohn Royce, but Lysa's really awful.

[BalerionTheCat]

17 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

See, by marrying Sansa, he is no longer Stark’s lapdog, but rather being treated as a great lord himself.

I would not call him lapdog. He is all, but willing to cooperate with the Starks. Which he would have to, if he became a close relative. Then he would truly be a lapdog! IMO, he still wanted to be king. And to pay his crown the Iron price. And still keeping the Old Way. Which he couldn't with the Starks in bed. He wanted the Starks dead. Nothing less.

[sifth]

15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

She is pretty awful. Obviously trying to kill Sansa was deeply immoral. I'd probably say that she's the 4th biggest participant in starting the Wot5K, although I'm not sure how much she put together. She's clearly not well. When she meets Sansa on one hand she expresses sympathy for her and Catelyn, but the next moment she's trying to kill her. She's really messed up. And yes. That's a good analogy. I feel a lot of sympathy for Robert Arryn, because he had a terrible mom and he's young enough that I think he can still be fixed by someone like Yohn Royce, but Lysa's really awful.

I often go back and forth in my mind on who's the worse mom, Lysa or Cersei. There's no doubt in my mind that Tywin is the worst father in the series, with Craster coming in second, lol

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I often go back and forth in my mind on who's the worse mom, Lysa or Cersei. There's no doubt in my mind that Tywin is the worst father in the series, with Craster coming in second, lol

To be honest, I think Euron is the worst father in the series and Craster is second. Tywin's terrible too, in his own ways. But those two take the top spot for me. Turning your children into tongueless slave "abominations" (his word... not mine) is pretty evil. And Craster kills his sons and rapes his daughters, so he goes without saying.

Cersei is definitely worse than Lysa in my opinion, but Lysa is really bad too. She was forced to abort her first child, had a bunch of miscarriages and stillbirths and then a sick and frail child surrounded by enemies (in large part due to her poor judgement). But I do think that her love for her kid is genuine, while Cersei's seems to be rooted in narcissism.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Arthur Peres]

Balon would hate Robb even more if Robb married Theon into the Starks...

Balon would not see that as Robb treating him as a ally of equal footing. He would see that for Robb trying to plant a Stark puppet on his seat and trying to use them. Balon does not want Theon to suceed him, he wanted Asha, he hated Theon and hated the Starks to a point he prayed for his own son's death.

Robb already did a lot for Balon in his part of the deal, he showed a lot of good faith by returning Theon to Balon, he reconized Balon titles and would support him in futher conquest. Balon was just a idiot that threw that away to pillage a barren land out of spite. 

The only way Theon could suceed in his mission, is if either Balon is dead, or if Theon instead of going directly to Pyke went to Hawlaw, build his support there from his blood ties, than went on to a another powerfull Ironborn family and married into their families, and with their support he forced Balon and Aeron to reconize him as heir while he also sells them the idea of raiding the Westerlands, showing Jaime's golden armor as loot to impress them.

[Lee-Sensei]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Balon would hate Robb even more if Robb married Theon into the Starks...

Balon would not see that as Robb treating him as a ally of equal footing. He would see that for Robb trying to plant a Stark puppet on his seat and trying to use them. Balon does not want Theon to suceed him, he wanted Asha, he hated Theon and hated the Starks to a point he prayed for his own son's death.

Robb already did a lot for Balon in his part of the deal, he showed a lot of good faith by returning Theon to Balon, he reconized Balon titles and would support him in futher conquest. Balon was just a idiot that threw that away to pillage a barren land out of spite. 

The only way Theon could suceed in his mission, is if either Balon is dead, or if Theon instead of going directly to Pyke went to Hawlaw, build his support there from his blood ties, than went on to a another powerfull Ironborn family and married into their families, and with their support he forced Balon and Aeron to reconize him as heir while he also sells them the idea of raiding the Westerlands, showing Jaime's golden armor as loot to impress them.

I think one of Theon's big mistakes (aside from the moral one of not visiting his mother), was not getting married to a woman from one of the major families on the Iron Islands. Showing off Jaime's golden armor might have been a good idea too, but Robb and Theon never expected that Balon would have an asinine plan to invade the North while the Lannisters were on the backfoot and the Westerlands was ripe for the taking. They could have taken Fair Isle, destroyed the Lannister fleet and sacked Lannisport. That would have been a far better decision on Balon's part.

[Arthur Peres]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I think one of Theon's big mistakes (aside from the moral one of not visiting his mother), was not getting married to a woman from one of the major families on the Iron Islands. Showing off Jaime's golden armor might have been a good idea too, but Robb and Theon never expected that Balon would have an asinine plan to invade the North while the Lannisters were on the backfoot and the Westerlands was ripe for the taking. They could have taken Fair Isle, destroyed the Lannister fleet and sacked Lannisport. That would have been a far better decision on Balon's part.

 

Yeah. There is no way Theon would ever think that his father hates him and blames him for his own failures.

[Nevets]

I'm not sure I see either side thinking it's advantageous.  

I don't know what the Greyjoys could offer Robb that would justify giving them Sansa instead of using her on someone more useful and reliable.  I would also worry about her being a potential hostage.  Balon isn't what I would call trustworthy.

And I think Theon having someone like Sansa as his wife wouldn't make Balon too happy.  She's the daughter of someone he thought of as an enemy, and he would probably regard her as a bit of a weakling as well, which wouldn't help.

By the way, I have no problem regarding Sansa as an object to be married off to best advantage.  Everyone in the story thinks that way, including Sansa herself, even as it's a source of frustration for her.

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Nevets

[Lee-Sensei]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I'm not sure I see either side thinking it's advantageous.  

I don't know what the Greyjoys could offer Robb that would giving them Sansa instead of using her for someone more useful and reliable.  I would also worry about her being a potential hostage.  Balon isn't what I would call trustworthy.

And I think Theon having someone like Sansa as his wife wouldn't make Balon too happy.  She's the daughter of someone he thinks of as an enemy, and he would probably regard her as a bit of a weakling as well, which wouldn't help.

By the way, I have no problem regarding Sansa as an object to be married off to best advantage.  Everyone in the story thinks that way, including Sansa herself, even as it's a source of frustration for her.

There were better options for a marriage (in theory), but the Greyjoys are definitely useful. They have around 20k men and one of the largest fleets in Westeros.