Random Thoughts on Robb and Theon

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Okay, so I had a thought last night while trying to go to sleep and I can’t get it out of my head. What if Robb had traded Sansa for Jaime and then married Sansa to Theon. Or alternatively married Theon to some other lord’s daughter if you think Sansa is too valuable. (Edit : I didn’t like that I called Sansa valuable like she is a tool. Hmm, Sansa’s too important as potential person to make a marriage alliance with. Still sounds weird. Well it’s the best I got.) Hear me out. 

Listen, Balon Greyjoy is an idiot, but there is one point he makes that is valid, if you give q crown to someone,  you can just as easily take it away. What if Robb ACTUALLY treated Theon and the Greyjoys as he would treat any other alliance instead of just kind of counting on Theon to support him?

marrying Theon to Sansa does two important things. First, Theon now has ample reason NOT to betray Robb. After all the marriage can only be consumated if Theon comes back to Robb. (Sansa will still be on her way to Riverrun even if the trade happens when Theon leaves). As well Robb is no longer approaching Balon as an overload but bow as an equal making a marriage alliance. Balon is an idiot,so I am not sure how this goes, byt I think it can change things. 

Secondly, it honestly solves a lot of Theon’s issues. He always felt he wasn’t accepted by the Starks, but this could be Robb truly accepting him as a brother. It is treating him as an ally instead of a hostage. It un-knots a lot of Theon’s issues. It raises the chances that Theon would remain loyal to Robb even if Balon still acts like the world’s pettiest idiot. 

Final point, it you have a problem with it being Sansa, I think even if it is a less important bannerman, it would still be a good move. Off the top of my head, Dacey Mormont, The Frey who could be the Lady of Darry (Amerei?), or isn’t the heir to Cerwyn also a woman? Anyways someone who is an heir to something. I am 100% some exist. I should say a Bracken aa well, but who want to marry that gutter trash of a house (I am a Blackwood remember). Actually I have a daughter right? Not sure her age, but a Blackwood is always an excellent match. We were once Kings in the Riverlands after all.  

Edited October 3, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Willam Stark]

Never thought about that, but it would have been a great move on Robb's part.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

Never thought about that, but it would have been a great move on Robb's part.

No it wouldn’t. Theon would never be accepted as heir by the Ironborn and Euron would easily dispose of him once he returned. Maybe kills Sansa too or marries her himself while he’s at it.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

No it wouldn’t. Theon would never be accepted as heir by the Ironborn and Euron would easily dispose of him once he returned. Maybe kills Sansa too or marries her himself while he’s at it.

....This assumes...so many things. First, my point was that Theon WOULDN'T betray Robb, making it likely he returns to the Riverlands somehow if Balon refuses him. If Theon still betrays Robb...he isn't married to Sansa though, he has to be in Robb's camp to marry Sansa (and probably it would be prolonged tell post war). 

If you are suggesting Balon names Theon heir in this case. Well, in that case, Theon is still in the Westerlands (I assume they are now attacking the Westerlands?) and if Euron still claims the Seastone Chair, Theon might have a better foothold than either Victorian or Asha did to oppose him. Or maybe not, who knows? There is certainly a lot you are assuming though, or which...for certain Sansa bieng in Pyke...makes little sense. Also if Theon never takes Winterfell...maybe the Red Wedding never happens. Theon taking Winterfell (and Ramsay killing him) was a major part of what made Roose Bolton brave enough to do what he did (and I also think the Freys are too cowardly to have acted on their own). 

[James Steller]

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

....This assumes...so many things. First, my point was that Theon WOULDN'T betray Robb, making it likely he returns to the Riverlands somehow if Balon refuses him. If Theon still betrays Robb...he isn't married to Sansa though, he has to be in Robb's camp to marry Sansa (and probably it would be prolonged tell post war). 

If you are suggesting Balon names Theon heir in this case. Well, in that case, Theon is still in the Westerlands (I assume they are now attacking the Westerlands?) and if Euron still claims the Seastone Chair, Theon might have a better foothold than either Victorian or Asha did to oppose him. Or maybe not, who knows? There is certainly a lot you are assuming though, or which...for certain Sansa bieng in Pyke...makes little sense. Also if Theon never takes Winterfell...maybe the Red Wedding never happens. Theon taking Winterfell (and Ramsay killing him) was a major part of what made Roose Bolton brave enough to do what he did (and I also think the Freys are too cowardly to have acted on their own). 

You’re assuming just as much as I am. Why would Balon allow Theon to just go back to the Riverlands? Would Theon and Sansa be able to get married? 
 

Also, when Balon dies, I absolutely don’t think Theon would have any sway over the Kingsmoot. He has spent most of his life in the North, he has no allies. He would be rejected harder than Lord Drumm. Euron would still win and he would want to get Theon out of the way. So Theon had better flee or else he’s done for.

and yes, you’re right, there are a lot of factors, but when I look at how scenarios would most realistically play out, I don’t think Theon and Sansa would ever get married in the first place due to circumstances keeping them apart. And the trade of Jaime for Sansa would have been for nought.

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

 

Also, when Balon dies, I absolutely don’t think Theon would have any sway over the Kingsmoot. He has spent most of his life in the North, he has no allies. He would be rejected harder than Lord Drumm. Euron would still win and he would want to get Theon out of the way. So Theon had better flee or else he’s done for.

 

 

 

I disagree. Theon could unite the much of the factions of Asha and Victarion behind him, and Aeron would be probably persuaded to support him.

Edited October 3, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Groo]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

I absolutely don’t think Theon would have any sway over the Kingsmoot.

Why would Aeron call a Kingsmoot if Theon was around? Aeron wanted Euron gone and all he would have to say is Theon is the rightful heir like it had been for centuries. It had been a long time since there had been a Kingsmoot and Aeron only called one because he was trying to replace Euron with his younger brother Victarion.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

@James Steller : I agree with @csuszka1948 and @Groo. I think Theon could actually unite a lot of factions behind him. While as I agree that what we see from Theon's family isn't promising, the family members in question were Balon (dead in this scenario), Aeron (who hates Euron more than anything else, and...honestly he acts like just as much a prick to everyone, not just Theon. Theon just didn't know he had become a humorless prick while he was gone, so took it personally), and Asha (who probably wants to replace Theon as heir). However, Asha was somewhat willing to work with Victorian, and I can see her supporting Theon over Euron too (especially if Theon gives her some important position). Who's to say the rest of the Ironborn don't support him. I would wager many actually are fine with normal inheritance (Aeron seems to disdain half the lords of the Iron Islanders as Greenlanders in his chapters and many still have Maesters they listen to) and even if they aren't...if Theon has married Sansa Stark (or promised to) in this scenario and has had any kind of success in the Westerlands (I'd argue he will. He took Winterfell with like 10 men or something. Like....there is actually a suggestion Theon is pretty good strategist/military mind..unlike his idiot of a father), he could actually come out of it looking pretty good as a Kingly option. Remember, Balon's father was...nothing like Balon, and they accepted him as Lord. 

TLDR - I think Theon could actually be a good option as King...if he wasn't busy being captured by Ramsay Snow. 

[BalerionTheCat]

Balon believed Theon had become a Stark. Ned had stolen his last son and Balon wanted his revenge over the Starks. Not to be brother-in-law with Ned. Marrying Theon to Sansa would not improve the situation. Robb would get nothing that way.

IMO Theon never betrayed the Starks. He needed to show the ironborn he was not a Stark, but a Reaver. He planned to give Winterfell back to Bran when he would have control of the ironborn. But he didn't dare to explain his plan Bran or Luwin. And things went awfully wrong.

Edited October 3, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Gravity Grave]

I can’t envisage a scenario where Robb trades Jaime Lannister for Sansa, to marry her off to the Ironborn, that doesn’t hasten his demise. 

[sifth]

The way the first book is written is rather crazy. Jamie wins so many military victories, it's rather crazy and so quickly at that. Has Jame ever won any military battles before the events of the first books?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Balon believed Theon had become a Stark. Ned had stolen his last son and Balon wanted his revenge over the Starks. Not to be brother-in-law with Ned. Marrying Theon to Sansa would not improve the situation. Robb would get nothing that way.

IMO Theon never betrayed the Starks. He needed to show the ironborn he was not a Stark, but a Reaver. He planned to give Winterfell back to Bran when he would have control of the ironborn. But he didn't dare to explain his plan Bran or Luwin. And things went awfully wrong.

See, by marrying Sansa, he is no longer Stark’s lapdog, but rather being treated as a great lord himself. Making marriage alliances is common among great houses, ordering the son of one great house to carry out your plan…is not. Balon is an idiot, and I agree with you. The difference would be Theon. I think he betrays Balon instead of Robb in this scenario. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

I can’t envisage a scenario where Robb trades Jaime Lannister for Sansa, to marry her off to the Ironborn, that doesn’t hasten his demise. 

Actually Robb himself says he should of. His plan was to matry her to Loras Tyrell I believe. I honestly think Sansa was more valuable then Robb’s camp treated her. Again, I hate talking about a human being ths way. Byt that was the basic idea. Jaime is too great a leader, we can’t let him back in the field. But let’s just say that Sansa had married Loras and the Tyrells and Starks join hands. That is worth like 1000 Jaimes. If Sansa had been in Robb’s camp from the beginning, it would have made a massive difference I think. Also, Robb is obviously a military genius, but I think he is rather bad at statecraft ans should have had a small council or Hand or the King (or the Northern equivalent) to handle some of these issues. I’ve always thought he had too much on his shoulders. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

The way the first book is written is rather crazy. Jamie wins so many military victories, it's rather crazy and so quickly at that. Has Jame ever won any military battles before the events of the first books?

I think he vastly outnumbered his foe too. I’ve thought about this before, and I think he was fighting ina. position where he had upwards of 10x thr troops of his opponents…and he just won basically because of that. I will say Jaime as a figurehead and individually excellent fighter has value, but despite Jaime’s detest of them, a bunch of archers might have a bigger impact on the battle then one knight. And again, I am not sure Jaime is that good of a commander at all. The supposition of Jaime’s value and Sansa’s valueless is taken at face value, and no one in book ever questions it. 

[Lee-Sensei]

23 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Okay, so I had a thought last night while trying to go to sleep and I can’t get it out of my head. What if Robb had traded Sansa for Jaime and then married Sansa to Theon. Or alternatively married Theon to some other lord’s daughter if you think Sansa is too valuable. (Edit : I didn’t like that I called Sansa valuable like she is a tool. Hmm, Sansa’s too important as potential person to make a marriage alliance with. Still sounds weird. Well it’s the best I got.) Hear me out. 

Listen, Balon Greyjoy is an idiot, but there is one point he makes that is valid, if you give q crown to someone,  you can just as easily take it away. What if Robb ACTUALLY treated Theon and the Greyjoys as he would treat any other alliance instead of just kind of counting on Theon to support him?

marrying Theon to Sansa does two important things. First, Theon now has ample reason NOT to betray Robb. After all the marriage can only be consumated if Theon comes back to Robb. (Sansa will still be on her way to Riverrun even if the trade happens when Theon leaves). As well Robb is no longer approaching Balon as an overload but bow as an equal making a marriage alliance. Balon is an idiot,so I am not sure how this goes, byt I think it can change things. 

Secondly, it honestly solves a lot of Theon’s issues. He always felt he wasn’t accepted by the Starks, but this could be Robb truly accepting him as a brother. It is treating him as an ally instead of a hostage. It un-knots a lot of Theon’s issues. It raises the chances that Theon would remain loyal to Robb even if Balon still acts like the world’s pettiest idiot. 

Final point, it you have a problem with it being Sansa, I think even if it is a less important bannerman, it would still be a good move. Off the top of my head, Dacey Mormont, The Frey who could be the Lady of Darry (Amerei?), or isn’t the heir to Cerwyn also a woman? Anyways someone who is an heir to something. I am 100% some exist. I should say a Bracken aa well, but who want to marry that gutter trash of a house (I am a Blackwood remember). Actually I have a daughter right? Not sure her age, but a Blackwood is always an excellent match. We were once Kings in the Riverlands after all.  

Marrying Sansa to Theon has no value unless he's the Lord of the Iron Islands or Balon's clear successor. Theon was Balon's successor, but Balon didn't really recognize it. Certainly not when he returned to the Iron Islands and wasn't ironborn. Robb's best choice would be to keep Theon as a hostage (and his period as a hostage was effectively over when Ned was arrested and Robb was Lord Stark). It would have been better for Theon too actually. He could stay and fight with the Starks and Balon would probably not attack out of the hope that his son will adhere to the Old Ways. If he does anyways, at least Winterfell wouldn't fall.

What would have probably been the best choice is sending Theon back to the Iron Islands when he became an adult. Ned and Robert left the Vale at 16 for Winterfell and Storms End respectively, but those were true wards. By the time of the Wot5K, Theon was about 19 or 20. That would give him 3 to 4 years to work his way back into Balon's confidence and give him a better chance of influencing his fathers actions. Theon is an ass in ACOK, but he never really considers attacking Robb until after it's clear that Balon decided and he reconizes that there's much more to gain by attacking the Lannisters. After years serving Balon and being aculturated again, he'd probably have had a better chance of convincin his father to ally with Robb instead of fighting against him.

As for the Sansa match... in an ideal scenario where Robb remains the King of the North and the Trident and Theon is accepted as the Crown Prince of the Iron Islands, I could see Robb making that match to shore up their alliance and make Theon his brother-by-law. Although marrying an Iron Islands lady would probably a better choice for him. Gysella or Gwin Goodbrother as examples.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lee-Sensei]

16 hours ago, James Steller said:

No it wouldn’t. Theon would never be accepted as heir by the Ironborn and Euron would easily dispose of him once he returned. Maybe kills Sansa too or marries her himself while he’s at it.

This is a myth propagated by the show and even there Yara still needed Theon's support to inherit. He was accepted as the heir by the ironborn. Even when he was believed to be dead, Euron had to kill Lord Botley for proclaiming Theon their true king.

13 hours ago, James Steller said:

You’re assuming just as much as I am. Why would Balon allow Theon to just go back to the Riverlands? Would Theon and Sansa be able to get married?

Also, when Balon dies, I absolutely don’t think Theon would have any sway over the Kingsmoot. He has spent most of his life in the North, he has no allies. He would be rejected harder than Lord Drumm. Euron would still win and he would want to get Theon out of the way. So Theon had better flee or else he’s done for.

and yes, you’re right, there are a lot of factors, but when I look at how scenarios would most realistically play out, I don’t think Theon and Sansa would ever get married in the first place due to circumstances keeping them apart. And the trade of Jaime for Sansa would have been for nought.

If Theon was alive, there wouldn't have been a kingsmoot. They hadn't had one in thousands of years. The only reason it happened was that Asha was the rightful heir with Theon dead and Asha was a woman. The ironborn had never been ruled by a woman before. That was the issue.

5 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

I can’t envisage a scenario where Robb trades Jaime Lannister for Sansa, to marry her off to the Ironborn, that doesn’t hasten his demise. 

Assuming that the ironborn honor the alliance, it's not the worst idea in the world, but Robb Stark wouldn't trade Jaime for Sansa. Even if it was to marry her off to Wilas Tyrell and that would be a much greater prize. Jaime was most useful as a hostage and in the event that the Baratheon's topple the Lannisters, he'd have probably just been executed as a punishment for his crimes.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

The way the first book is written is rather crazy. Jamie wins so many military victories, it's rather crazy and so quickly at that. Has Jame ever won any military battles before the events of the first books?

Catelyn calls him a seasoned battle commander, but he really didn't command in any battles before the Wot5K from what I've seen. He spent the entirety of Roberts Rebellion in Kings Landing and he must have sat out the Greyjoy Rebellion too, since if he'd participated in that war, he'd have written it down in the White Book.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

53 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Marrying Sansa to Theon has no value unless he's the Lord of the Iron Islands or Balon's clear successor. Theon was Balon's successor, but Balon didn't really recognize it. 

Honestly I think we mostly agree, so I’ll keep this relatively short, but I think it still has value. Balon would die eventually. Theon has a legit shot at becoming King following Balon’s death whether Balon wanted him to succeed or not. Viserys I wanted Rhaenyra to succeed him, I think we all know that did not go as planned…for very similar reasons, ….and I’d argue the Ironborn are even less likely to support a female leader than the Lords of all of Westeros were. If Theon gets the crown, and is fully on board wjth Robb, it essentially means Robb controls three of the eight major parts of Westeros AND he has the Westerlands surrounded by both land and sea. Theon is also likely to do Robb’s plan if/when he succeeds Balon in this scenario. 

Honestly though, I could make an exhaustive list of how Robb failed as a King politically. He makes 0 attempt at alliances with the Tyrells post Renley’s death. Although he sends letters to his Aunt Lysa…why didn’t he make her marriage offers or something. Like…do more. Put pressure on her to make an alliance with him. He kind of counted on Lysa’s support, just like Theon’s, without making any sort of concessions. He gives more concessions to Walder Frey then he makes to any of the great lords he wants on his side! As far as we are aware, he makes no contact with Stannis or Doran Martell either. I feel like more should have been done. People hate the Lannisters, but t he Lannisters were the only ones offering anything. Stannis was too busy talking about his rights, and Robb…just doesn’t offer anything. (and Balon…well Balon is an idiot). Renly was offering an alternative and he had a biggwr army and probably was going go win the war if not for magic. Anyways, I am done. TLDR - Robb should have done more politically or chosen a Hand to speak with his voice who could have (I vote Catelyn, but if it can’t be a woman, I think Tytos Blackwood (ie me) or the Blackfish would also be good choices). 

[Lee-Sensei]

4 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly I think we mostly agree, so I’ll keep this relatively short, but I think it still has value. Balon would die eventually. Theon has a legit shot at becoming King following Balon’s death whether Balon wanted him to succeed or not. Viserys I wanted Rhaenyra to succeed him, I think we all know that did not go as planned…for very similar reasons, ….and I’d argue the Ironborn are even less likely to support a female leader than the Lords of all of Westeros were. If Theon gets the crown, and is fully on board wjth Robb, it essentially means Robb controls three of the eight major parts of Westeros AND he has the Westerlands surrounded by both land and sea. Theon is also likely to do Robb’s plan if/when he succeeds Balon in this scenario. 

Honestly though, I could make an exhaustive list of how Robb failed as a King politically. He makes 0 attempt at alliances with the Tyrells post Renley’s death. Although he sends letters to his Aunt Lysa…why didn’t he make her marriage offers or something. Like…do more. Put pressure on her to make an alliance with him. He kind of counted on Lysa’s support, just like Theon’s, without making any sort of concessions. He gives more concessions to Walder Frey then he makes to any of the great lords he wants on his side! As far as we are aware, he makes no contact with Stannis or Doran Martell either. I feel like more should have been done. People hate the Lannisters, but t he Lannisters were the only ones offering anything. Stannis was too busy talking about his rights, and Robb…just doesn’t offer anything. (and Balon…well Balon is an idiot). Renly was offering an alternative and he had a biggwr army and probably was going go win the war if not for magic. Anyways, I am done. TLDR - Robb should have done more politically or chosen a Hand to speak with his voice who could have (I vote Catelyn, but if it can’t be a woman, I think Tytos Blackwood (ie me) or the Blackfish would also be good choices). 

I agree that the Lords of Westeros would be much more willing to accept a female heir than the ironborn and that Theon was likely to inherit after Balon. The big stumbling block is Euron. He really should have been killed by someone earlier. He's too dangerous to leave alive.

To be fair, who could he offer Lysa? Arya was betrothed to a Frey. Sansa's his only other sister. The Frey match wasn't a bad one tbf. It made his greatest victories possible, but he definitely should have done more. I think he should have probably set aside his crown and swore fealty to Renly or Stannis.

Honestly, I think that if Jon Arryn had chosen a Tyrell or a Hightower as the next queen, they could have united basically every Great House in Westeros through blood ties, marriages or friendship except. But then there wouldn't be a story.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

57 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I agree that the Lords of Westeros would be much more willing to accept a female heir than the ironborn and that Theon was likely to inherit after Balon. The big stumbling block is Euron. He really should have been killed by someone earlier. He's too dangerous to leave alive.

To be fair, who could he offer Lysa? Arya was betrothed to a Frey. Sansa's his only other sister. The Frey match wasn't a bad one tbf. It made his greatest victories possible, but he definitely should have done more. I think he should have probably set aside his crown and swore fealty to Renly or Stannis.

Honestly, I think that if Jon Arryn had chosen a Tyrell or a Hightower as the next queen, they could have united basically every Great House in Westeros through blood ties, marriages or friendship except. But then there wouldn't be a story.

Well he could have offered her titles or positions as well. I think he gave to much to Walder. One marriage (I say Arya) should have been enough from his family (and maybe another impoetant marriage for another important lord like the Karstarks or even what ends up happening, Edmure. Honestly Edmure by himself should have been enough). If he’d given less to the Frey’s, he’d have more negotiation power later on. You said he could have set his crown aside to support Renly or Stannis. Agreed, and seal that with a marriage. Shireen to himself (meNs his children could still possibly be Kings). In Renly case…actually Renly essentially says its enough for him to be an underking (he doesnt even need to give up his crown) lol. That alliance was actually pretty easy to make. 

If we don’t go with those two, himself to Maergerry is the obvious point to make here with the Tyrells, But also himself to Arianne Martell could have gotten him the Martells. How about giving up on Lysa and wedding one of Bronze Yohn Royce’s daughters and aditionally marry Sansa to a Waynwood or Redfort. Get the Lords Declarant to declare for him WITHOUT Lysa involed, if he can get 10,000-15,000 swords from tbe Vale, it coold have changed the war. 

[Lee-Sensei]

34 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well he could have offered her titles or positions as well. I think he gave to much to Walder. One marriage (I say Arya) should have been enough from his family (and maybe another impoetant marriage for another important lord like the Karstarks or even what ends up happening, Edmure. Honestly Edmure by himself should have been enough). If he’d given less to the Frey’s, he’d have more negotiation power later on. You said he could have set his crown aside to support Renly or Stannis. Agreed, and seal that with a marriage. Shireen to himself (meNs his children could still possibly be Kings). In Renly case…actually Renly essentially says its enough for him to be an underking (he doesnt even need to give up his crown) lol. That alliance was actually pretty easy to make. 

If we don’t go with those two, himself to Maergerry is the obvious point to make here with the Tyrells, But also himself to Arianne Martell could have gotten him the Martells. How about giving up on Lysa and wedding one of Bronze Yohn Royce’s daughters and aditionally marry Sansa to a Waynwood or Redfort. Get the Lords Declarant to declare for him WITHOUT Lysa involed, if he can get 10,000-15,000 swords from tbe Vale, it coold have changed the war. 

Robb didn't have a choice. He needed to move quickly and Walder Frey held all of the cards. Also, Arya was missing as far as they knew (I believe). So that was a promise that would very likely never be fulfilled as far as Walder Frey was concerned. I agree that it was an overreach. Arya was matched to someone far below her since he was the 22nd son of Walder Frey (iirc). Robb marrying a Frey girl was a good idea though. Especially when he became the King of the North and the Trident.

Robb also couldn't promise Edmure's hand. He was a prisoner of Jaime Lannister at the time and he was of equal status to Robb. If a scenario where Robb offers Edmure and Walder agrees, Edmure would be fully within his rights to refuse, since he never gave his word in the first place.

Robb should have tried to make an alliance with the Reach, but the Tyrells and Redwynes aren't that interested in the North (they said that Balon should just have it in the Small Council meeting). They wanted a Queen. That's why there were plans to marry Margaery off to Robert, then Renly and then Joffrey. He could try with Arianne too, but Doran would have refused. Just like he refused Edmure. Robb didn't know that though and he should have made offers. Promise them justice for Elia and her kids and death to the Lannisters.

The Vale Lords wouldn't openly defy Lysa. To leave the Vale you need to cross Arryn lands and she wouldn't allow it. I don't think they'd declare for Robb either. Some of them wanted to ally with him, but even among the Lords Declarent, some were more favourable to the Baratheons. But yes. Robb definitely should have tried harder. He sent an envoy to Renly, sent ravens to the Lysa and sent Theon to Balon, but that's about it. Tbf, Lysa should have helped them though. They're family and she helped get them into this mess in the first place (even if she was being manipulated by Littlefinger). I have some sympathy for her, but she's one of the worst sisters in these books.