Cersei’s Small Council

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean he betrayed Cersei at the first sign of trouble. Also he choose men only loyal to him and not the queen, which to me tells me his plan was in the works for a while. 

I still can't tell if the Kettleblacks have been loyal to Littlefinger or Cersei this whole time.

[Lee-Sensei]

26 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I like the Tyrell option, or the Hightower, but I would have secured one of the allies' positions, and for that, I say : My sister (alas the wiki doesn't know her name, but Tytos Blackwood's sister) or a member of House Royce. I was trying to think of a Northern lord...but there are so many men in the North, lol. Maybe ....Barbrey Dustin is all I can think of, lol. Man if if House Arryn, Tully, or Stark just had more members this would have been less of a problem, lol. Marrying into one of those families would have made sense, but they have no other members basically! 

Those would all have been fine options too. The big thing is finding someone that wouldn't defraud the king out of spite and that would have been easy enough. I can't stress enough how much this wasn't in Cersei's interests. Even if she hated Robert, she could have just had two or three of his kids and then killed him off later. She'd have been much safer if she had. Her kids too.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Those would all have been fine options too. The big thing is finding someone that wouldn't defraud the king out of spite and that would have been easy enough. I can't stress enough how much this wasn't in Cersei's interests. Even if she hated Robert, she could have just had two or three of his kids and then killed him off later. She'd have been much safer if she had. Her kids too.

I'd argue just one kid would have even been enough. Imagine if instead of Joffrey (or his name could still be Joffrey), she had a kid with black hair and blue eyes who was oldest. No one would piece together than Tommen and Myrcella were bastards in this scenario I think. However, I also ....don't know what it would be liked to produce children with someone I despised. It sounds...unpleasant. 

Okay, this is really unrelated, but...Myrcella is quite competent. I just read an Arianne POV, and Myrcella is honestly ....coming across very well. She is good at Cyvasse, kind and respectful to those around her, seems very intelligent for her age, and is also not seemingly as arrogant as the other Lannisters (a notable exception being her brother Tommen, who also seems pleasant). Crowning Myrcella was a horrible idea for the Dornish...but if Westeros wasn't so sexist, she seems like the ideal option to turn into a good Queen honestly (she certainly comes off better than (f)Aegon who is supposedly the "ideal" King). Granted, her scenes are short though. 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I'd argue just one kid would have even been enough. Imagine if instead of Joffrey (or his name could still be Joffrey), she had a kid with black hair and blue eyes who was oldest. No one would piece together than Tommen and Myrcella were bastards in this scenario I think. However, I also ....don't know what it would be liked to produce children with someone I despised. It sounds...unpleasant. 

Okay, this is really unrelated, but...Myrcella is quite competent. I just read an Arianne POV, and Myrcella is honestly ....coming across very well. She is good at Cyvasse, kind and respectful to those around her, seems very intelligent for her age, and is also not seemingly as arrogant as the other Lannisters (a notable exception being her brother Tommen, who also seems pleasant). Crowning Myrcella was a horrible idea for the Dornish...but if Westeros wasn't so sexist, she seems like the ideal option to turn into a good Queen honestly (she certainly comes off better than (f)Aegon who is supposedly the "ideal" King). Granted, her scenes are short though. 

It might have given them plausible deniablity, but tbh, it's sort of a plot contrivance that they weren't found out. Those two weren't careful.

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"My late husband loved the forest too." In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling.

"Still, beauty can sometimes mask deadly danger," she warned the little queen. "Robert lost his life in the woods." Go and hunt, Cersei had urged Robert, half a hundred times. My brother keeps me well protected.

 

I think that Myrcella probably had the most potential out of the three. Aside from the bastardry, she probably has the most qualities that I think would make a good ruler. Tommen's a good kid, but he seems kind of weak. Joffrey was a monster.

[Aebram]

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Edit ; I want to add that we are not 100% sure about Aurane Waters. Because so little is known about him, we are just guessing. Let’s just say he was not a conman. So he gets his position from Cersei. Then Cersei is arrested and is being tried by the Faith and stripped of her powers. Another of Cersei’s hires is being quite literally tortured by the High Septon (Osney Kettleblack). Even if Aurane is legitimate, he is a bastard with little to no power of his own…and the Velaryon’s are unlikely to run to his rescue. He may have just…fled in fear of his life if he stayed. 

Fled in fear of his life ... and took his entire fleet with him, and set himself up as lord of the Stepstones.  He must have been really scared.  :^)

 My personal hunch is that he and Cersei were having an affair; or if not, there was at least some sexual chemistry and/or flirtation going on. As you say, we don't know much about him. But his appearance reminded her of Rhaegar; and when talking to Jaime, she described him as "strong and vigorous." Maybe she was feeling neglected by Jaime, and wanted to stir up a little jealousy in him.  But she's quite the free spirit; besides Jaime, there was Lancel, and then a couple of the Kettleblacks ...

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The queen sipped at her wine. “Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I’d have a better chance of seducing his horse.” She noticed the look on Sansa’s face, and laughed. “Have I shocked you, my lady?” She leaned close. “You little fool. Tears are not a woman’s only weapon. You’ve got another one between your legs, and you’d best learn to use it. You’ll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords.” (Clash 60)

I get the feeling that there have been other times when Cersei used her body to persuade men to do her bidding; and she may do more of that before the story ends.

 

[Craving Peaches]

Cersei's small council is arguably worse than Robert's because it is just filled with sycophants though. At least Robert had people who would argue against him to provide another view rather than just being yes-men. And at least some (Renly, Ned, Barristan) of Robert's small council was loyal to him, unlike Cersei's who all abandoned her (aside from Qyburn, yay...).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

37 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Cersei's small council is arguably worse than Robert's because it is just filled with sycophants though.

And given how influential Jon Arryn was during Robert’s reign, I’m sure he had a say in choosing people for the small council.

[Alden Rothack]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

And given how influential Jon Arryn was during Robert’s reign, I’m sure he had a say in choosing people for the small council.

the only one we can be reasonably sure he suggested was Baelish (oops)

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Cersei's small council is arguably worse than Robert's because it is just filled with sycophants though. At least Robert had people who would argue against him to provide another view rather than just being yes-men. And at least some (Renly, Ned, Barristan) of Robert's small council was loyal to him, unlike Cersei's who all abandoned her (aside from Qyburn, yay...).

I don't know about that. Cersei's small council had that idiot Pycelle on it. He seemed to argue with her wisdom all the time. In fact, he was the only person who didn't agree with all of her great ideas, for some daft reason, lol

Edited October 11, 2023 by sifth

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, sifth said:

I don't know about that. Cersei's small council had that idiot Pycelle on it. He seemed to argue with her wisdom all the time. In fact, he was the only person who didn't agree with all of her great ideas, for some daft reason, lol

True...

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

I don't know about that. Cersei's small council had that idiot Pycelle on it. He seemed to argue with her wisdom all the time. In fact, he was the only person who didn't agree with all of her great ideas, for some daft reason, lol

because hes not as dumb as he seems

[sweetsunray]

17 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean he betrayed Cersei at the first sign of trouble. Also he choose men only loyal to him and not the queen, which to me tells me his plan was in the works for a while. 

Fully agree. Imo he was an agent of Varys as much as Taena Merryweather was.

Aurane did not "flee" either. He managed to get Cersei to agree to put all the new dromonds on the Blackwater, the day before she got arrested. He was already preparing to steal those ships.

At the small council Aurane pretty much does what Varys usually does: present very relevant news about Illyrio's plot, but disguised as gossip and it gets dismissed. He claims that he heard men talk around the docks of the Golden contract breaking their contract, and being hired by Stannis to sail for Westeros. And he also begins to say something about those same docks wth queer talk from men of the east about dragons.

The breaking of the contract by the GC is the talk at harbors, and speculation... but absolutely none ever include the GC sailing for Westeros, not until they are about to actually sail and then Jorah Mormont relates it to Tyrion as "some exiled lord hiring the GC to sail for Westeros".

The small council chapter is also very ironic, because it first is Cersei meeting with Qyburn and how he "knows things" and "knowing who everybody is" is his job, yadiyada... And Cersei goes to the small council meeting thinking "see it was just money to pay informants that was Varys' trick" and that Varys is replaceable. But then Aurane brings up the making of a war fleet, Orton Merryweather suggests making an alliance with the new king of the Ironborn. They wonder what the fees would be, and Cersei thinks to herself "grrr, Varys would know such a thing". And then Aurane drops some info on the GC plans around the same time basically that Illyrio informs Tyrion about the GC and why they're going to Volantis.

When Cersei sees him at the wedding of Tommen and Margaery, she thinks "the first time she saw him". The first time she saw Aurane was the fealty swearing scene in the throne room after the Battle of the Blackwater, which we have from Sansa's POV.

I've analysed the scene where those captured at the Blackwater must bend the knee to Joffrey in aCoK. The scene is kicked off by a reference to a "turning of the coin", then the list of names start, including one Lord Varner with a "shattered knee". That's one of those symbolic things George does: have a man with a physical shattered knee swear fealty aka "bend the knee" (which is not something he can do). We also have a reference of Ser Willum, Josua and Elyas (Tad William's fantasy series) in that paragraph (not only rivalry but reference to lies), and a "scrapesword" which is a good anology for the GC: beneath the gold, the bitter steel. But you need to scrape off the gold first. Aurane's name is actually a French female name and its meaning is "golden", from the Latin root "aurum".

And after the list of those who "bent the knee" (but aren't truly loyal), we get the scene of two men defying Joffrey. The first is basically an anonymous "bastard" ("a bastard of a Florent or some other"). And we can figure out why a bastard is the first to deny Joffrey. Right before his denial, Sansa explains to us that those who swear fealty will get their lands and rights restored. Guess what a bastard does not have? And Aurane is specifically referred to as Aurane, the bastard of Driftmark shortly before that. Imo Aurane was going to do as the anonymous bastard was going to do, defy Joffrey. But Varys convinced him before the throne room scene not to do this and presented him an alternative (at the time, Illyrio and Varys believed Dany and her three young dragons had left Qarth for Pentos, being picked up by Illyrio's three cogs).

And Varys knew what buttons to push with Aurane, because of Rennifer Longwaters claims about his ancestry which he brings up whenever he can. Not only was his ancestral mother a Targaryen princess, she was also half Velaryon (through Danaera Velaryon), but his ancestral father was Alyn Oakenfist Velaryon, the bastard Alyn of Hull, who put "Loyal" on his brother's grave. As Rugen, Varys would have heard Rennifer's tale, would have looked up those historical characters and therefore knows what a bastard Waters of house Velaryon's sensitivities. Hence the "other side of Rugen's coin" points to Aurane.

It's not just that Aurane sails off with the war fleet just as Cersei is arrested, but also near to the moment when the Golden Company will be dumped on the Stepstones wth elephants.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Don't get me wrong, I actually want to see more of Aurane Waters, and I'd love if he wasn't loyal to Cersie. I guess if I had to actually guess, I think he works for the Tyrells, and Orton/Taena as well. I think Olenna was basically like : Well, you are kicking us off the small council, welp, not really, let me put two loyal to us but seemingly loyal to you instead. 

However, I could also see Taena/Orton being Blackfyre supporters, so, I don't know. 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Don't get me wrong, I actually want to see more of Aurane Waters, and I'd love if he wasn't loyal to Cersie. I guess if I had to actually guess, I think he works for the Tyrells, and Orton/Taena as well. I think Olenna was basically like : Well, you are kicking us off the small council, welp, not really, let me put two loyal to us but seemingly loyal to you instead. 

However, I could also see Taena/Orton being Blackfyre supporters, so, I don't know. 

Taena is an agent for Varys, because she informs Cersei about Olenna having a chest of Gardener gold coins, which was the coin discovered by Qyburn in Rugen's sleeping cell. But Rugen = Varys and so Varys planted the coin to make Cersei suspect the Tyrells. Cersei explicitly told Qyburn not to tell anyone else about the coin. Officially only Cerse and Qyburn knows, and of course Varys who planted the coin. Taena provding this info about Olenna's Gardener coins therefore was info dropped meant to make Cersei even more suspicious of the Tyrells.

The Tyrells are not aware of Cersei's personal feelings towards Rhaegar. While it became obvious what Tywin hoped for when he brought Cersei to court, they are unaware she was infatuated with him. But Varys witnessed this, since he came to Aerys' court the same year as Cersei came to court. And it would be another 2 years before Rhaegar wed Elia. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Taena is an agent for Varys, because she informs Cersei about Olenna having a chest of Gardener gold coins, which was the coin discovered by Qyburn in Rugen's sleeping cell. But Rugen = Varys and so Varys planted the coin to make Cersei suspect the Tyrells. Cersei explicitly told Qyburn not to tell anyone else about the coin. Officially only Cerse and Qyburn knows, and of course Varys who planted the coin. Taena provding this info about Olenna's Gardener coins therefore was info dropped meant to make Cersei even more suspicious of the Tyrells.

The Tyrells are not aware of Cersei's personal feelings towards Rhaegar. While it became obvious what Tywin hoped for when he brought Cersei to court, they are unaware she was infatuated with him. But Varys witnessed this, since he came to Aerys' court the same year as Cersei came to court. And it would be another 2 years before Rhaegar wed Elia. 

I agree with you about Taena working for Varys...but her working for Varys doesn't mean she isn't also working for the Tyrells. The Kettleblacks seem to be working for like 3 different players for example (Cersei, Tyrion, and Petyr). 

Cersei likes fair, pretty boys...and I would guess Olenna has some intel suggesting that much. They don't have to know she specifically likes Rhaegar to know that. Although your earlier Rugen point was very good, the second point...ehh. I still think Aurane is more likely working for the Tyrells than Varys (however like I said, he could be working for both, or none at all. We have very little information about Aurane). 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

They don't have to know she specifically likes Rhaegar to know that.

But it was him looking like Rhaegar that bedazzled her.

While Taena and Aurane may have work together at times with the Tyrells, it would be as much a means to an end as it is with Cersei. To make it easier for Aegon to swoop in (though during aFfC, they would believe Dany would be part of the exile-team).

As for the Tyrells: they killed Joffrey, not even allowing him even one night with Margaery. There's no way that Olenna would risk her granddaughter's physical safety or Loras's or their reputation.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

But it was him looking like Rhaegar that bedazzled her.

While Taena and Aurane may have work together at times with the Tyrells, it would be as much a means to an end as it is with Cersei. To make it easier for Aegon to swoop in (though during aFfC, they would believe Dany would be part of the exile-team).

As for the Tyrells: they killed Joffrey, not even allowing him even one night with Margaery. There's no way that Olenna would risk her granddaughter's physical safety or Loras's or their reputation.

I am of a mind that possibly they didn’t. That Cersei was fed false information and that neither Margerry or Loras was in any real danger. 

Also I thought of a strong argument for Aurane to be a Tyrell pawn rather than Varys’s. Varys WANTS Cersei in power. Thr Tyrell’s want her removed. I would go ahead and say that Aurane moves weaken Cersei to being removed from power, so in my mind that favors him being a Tyrell. It would be ironic as Aurane is one of the few people Cersei DOESN’T think is a secret Tyrell. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[astarkchoice]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:27 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I still can't tell if the Kettleblacks have been loyal to Littlefinger or Cersei this whole time.

Theyve been loyal to themselves, as poor vale lords LF was able to reach out to them and get them a fantastic deal

Taking cerseis money then tyrions (throigh bronn) and then after that money from LF ! also getting to bang cersei too.

Now its all gone a bit south due to torture and all but until then it had been a profitable high prestige job for 3 brothers from an impovereshed house.

 

[astarkchoice]

On 10/11/2023 at 10:11 AM, Alden Rothack said:

the only one we can be reasonably sure he suggested was Baelish (oops)

To be fair LF probably has done some good with the crown finances and keeping varys off balance for years.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

38 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Theyve been loyal to themselves, as poor vale lords LF was able to reach out to them and get them a fantastic deal.

Their father seems to be loyal to Littlefinger, at least.