A Collection of Ideas

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

2. I think that's being deliberately done and Edric will at least be suggested as the Baratheon heir when he returns to the story.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Published my analysis on Haldon last year: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2023/02/20/haldon-the-halfmaester/

I read your analysis, and enjoyed it. Not sure I'm sold, but also I can't counter anything you said either. I'll say : I would like it to be true!^^

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

New thought : GRRM hates singers, lol. Okay, I can't say this absolutely, Tom O' Sevens is likable for example. However, Daeron and Marillon, the Blue Bard, and Symon Silver Tongue....all are in a variety of ways, seemingly hated by GRRM. Okay, Marillon is just a horrible person, and he is a particularly unlikable person. Symon Silver Tongue and Daeron go another way. Although I think they are semi-unlikable, their fates seem particularly harsh for people who were...I don't know, not that bad. Daeron was possibly falsely accused and wanted to leave the wall. Symon was blackmailing Tyrion...but I also think if Tyrion...had jsut left Symon alone, it wouldn't have ever been a problem. The Blue Bard essentially gets tortured for no reason. Even Marillan, who as I said, is a horrible person, gets blamed for something he didn't do and killed. Singers in these books seem to come to particularly grisly ends. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:28 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

New thought : GRRM hates singers, lol. Okay, I can't say this absolutely, Tom O' Sevens is likable for example. However, Daeron and Marillon, the Blue Bard, and Symon Silver Tongue....all are in a variety of ways, seemingly hated by GRRM. Okay, Marillon is just a horrible person, and he is a particularly unlikable person. Symon Silver Tongue and Daeron go another way. Although I think they are semi-unlikable, their fates seem particularly harsh for people who were...I don't know, not that bad. Daeron was possibly falsely accused and wanted to leave the wall. Symon was blackmailing Tyrion...but I also think if Tyrion...had jsut left Symon alone, it wouldn't have ever been a problem. The Blue Bard essentially gets tortured for no reason. Even Marillan, who as I said, is a horrible person, gets blamed for something he didn't do and killed. Singers in these books seem to come to particularly grisly ends. 

Don't the Children of the Forest refer to themselves as singers or something like 'those who sing the song of the earth'? I think when we see singers tortured, thrown in the soup or whathaveyou it's a bit of a callback to some pivotal events of the age of heroes. I think the bowl of brown, being that it's constituents all kind of meld together is something of a weirnet analogy...then we have Tyrion throwing a singer in the stew because he sees him as a rival for his woman's affections... It's a pattern we've seen before, isn't it? I don't remember the manner of Arya's killing of Daeron. Did he end up in the canals?

Anyway, I don't think the author 'hates singers', but I think that largely they're doomed because of the role they generally play.  Let's see what happens to Tom when we get Winds.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/19/2023 at 4:51 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Don't the Children of the Forest refer to themselves as singers or something like 'those who sing the song of the earth'? I think when we see singers tortured, thrown in the soup or whathaveyou it's a bit of a callback to some pivotal events of the age of heroes. I think the bowl of brown, being that it's constituents all kind of meld together is something of a weirnet analogy...then we have Tyrion throwing a singer in the stew because he sees him as a rival for his woman's affections... It's a pattern we've seen before, isn't it? I don't remember the manner of Arya's killing of Daeron. Did he end up in the canals?

Anyway, I don't think the author 'hates singers', but I think that largely they're doomed because of the role they generally play.  Let's see what happens to Tom when we get Winds.

Not Tom O'Sevens. I love him, don't you do it to him too George!

[sifth]

For the longest time, I use to think Brienne was trans, but that's changed in recent years.

Brienne just seems like a really in shape woman, IMO. Plus we know as a young woman she enjoyed traditional feminine pursuits. She was turned off these things, by her Septa belittling her skills and her appearance. Brienne may look like a hardened warrior but underneath she is still your average Westerosi Maiden who loves the old songs and tales of valiant knights, much like Sansa. Brienne has romantic feelings for Renly and later romantic and sexual feelings for Jaime Lannister. At no point does she try to distance herself from her female self (in the books she even still has long hair) but she does allow people to assume she is a man for her own safety.

Also my head cannn ending for the series has Brienne and Jamie running off to join a sell sword company together. Though in recent years, the show has ruined that a little for me.

Edited October 21, 2023 by sifth

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

For the longest time, I use to think Brienne was trans, but that's changed in recent years.

Brienne just seems like a really in shape woman, IMO. Plus we know as a young woman she enjoyed traditional feminine pursuits. She was turned off these things, by her Septa belittling her skills and her appearance. Brienne may look like a hardened warrior but underneath she is still your average Westerosi Maiden who loves the old songs and tales of valiant knights, much like Sansa. Brienne has romantic feelings for Renly and later romantic and sexual feelings for Jaime Lannister. At no point does she try to distance herself from her female self (in the books she even still has long hair) but she does allow people to assume she is a man for her own safety.

Also my head cannn ending for the series has Brienne and Jamie running off to join a sell sword company together. Though in recent years, the show has ruined that a little for me.

I am nonbinary, and do not distance myself from my male self (I was assigned male at birth). The reason I read Brienne as nonbinary is her thoughts about her gender are pretty much identical to mine. I would go find the scene, but specifically when she breaks down and says she is not a son or a daughter in reference to her father comes to mind. She also accidentally calls herself a "s...daughter" in one line. I think it really leans toward her identifying as somewhere in the middle (if Westerosi had that concept, but they don't...). A note....romantic feelings have nothing to do with gender identity. I saw this come up in someone else's comments as well. Like..literally nothing. There are plenty of bisexual or gay trans men or bisexual or lesbian trans women. As to nonbinary folks, some like women, some like men, and some like both. I personally am attracted to women (so in a way, being a straight man was kind of easier for me than being nonbinary is). Anyways, this was a long explanation, but....I really really think Brienne is nonbinary, lol. So very similar to my experience and experiences of some of my other non-binary friends. 

[sifth]

31 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I am nonbinary, and do not distance myself from my male self (I was assigned male at birth). The reason I read Brienne as nonbinary is her thoughts about her gender are pretty much identical to mine. I would go find the scene, but specifically when she breaks down and says she is not a son or a daughter in reference to her father comes to mind. She also accidentally calls herself a "s...daughter" in one line. I think it really leans toward her identifying as somewhere in the middle (if Westerosi had that concept, but they don't...). A note....romantic feelings have nothing to do with gender identity. I saw this come up in someone else's comments as well. Like..literally nothing. There are plenty of bisexual or gay trans men or bisexual or lesbian trans women. As to nonbinary folks, some like women, some like men, and some like both. I personally am attracted to women (so in a way, being a straight man was kind of easier for me than being nonbinary is). Anyways, this was a long explanation, but....I really really think Brienne is nonbinary, lol. So very similar to my experience and experiences of some of my other non-binary friends. 

To each their own, but she comes off more as a Tomboy to me, same with Arya and Asha.

[Gilbert Green]

9 hours ago, sifth said:

To each their own, but she comes off more as a Tomboy to me, same with Arya and Asha.

I would not call Brienne non-binary (or trans).  To me, "non-binary" and "androgynous" mean very different things.

Brienne sees herself as a woman who, through an accident of nature, is capable of being mistaken for a man.  Not only does she regard any such male identification as a mistake, but she does not tend to encourage the mistake.  Others see her in the same terms.   They might mistake her for a man, but then they say "oh, she's really a woman, my mistake".  She is not postmodern, so to her, illusion is one thing, reality is something else, and the difference matters. 

When Jaime has a vision of Brienne in the underworld, she seems particularly feminine.  The implication seems to be that she has a woman's soul.

@Lord of Raventree Hall, I'm not trying to dictate how to use the term "non-binary".  If you identify as "non-binary" and if "androgynous" is all you mean by it, that is fine.  I'm not looking for a fight with you or your mom.   For what it is worth, I agree that Brienne is at least somewhat androgynous.  But certainly it is true that not all androgynous people identify as non-binary.  Nor is it clear that Brienne would choose to identify as non-binary, even if she were born today.  It is of course perfectly fine that you identify with Brienne, but I am sure that lots of people who do not identify as non-bindary also can identify with Brienne.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I would not call Brienne non-binary (or trans).  To me, "non-binary" and "androgynous" mean very different things.

Brienne sees herself as a woman who, through an accident of nature, is capable of being mistaken for a man.  Not only does she regard any such male identification as a mistake, but she does not tend to encourage the mistake.  Others see her in the same terms.   They might mistake her for a man, but then they say "oh, she's really a woman, my mistake".  She is not postmodern, so to her, illusion is one thing, reality is something else, and the difference matters. 

When Jaime has a vision of Brienne in the underworld, she seems particularly feminine.  The implication seems to be that she has a woman's soul.

@Lord of Raventree Hall, I'm not trying to dictate how to use the term "non-binary".  If you identify as "non-binary" and if "androgynous" is all you mean by it, that is fine.  I'm not looking for a fight with you or your mom.   For what it is worth, I agree that Brienne is at least somewhat androgynous.  But certainly it is true that not all androgynous people identify as non-binary.  Nor is it clear that Brienne would choose to identify as non-binary, even if she were born today.  It is of course perfectly fine that you identify with Brienne, but I am sure that lots of people who do not identify as non-bindary also can identify with Brienne.

I used to just call her gender non-conforming. I guess thet could be a safer way to express it (although I think that is still kind of under the trans umbrella). I am not androgynous at all lol.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, sifth said:

To each their own, but she comes off more as a Tomboy to me, same with Arya and Asha.

Arya and Asha never question their gender. Neither do the Mormont women. 

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Arya and Asha never question their gender. Neither do the Mormont women. 

I don't recall Brienne ever questioning her gender. I only remember Cersei frequently wishing she were born a man.

[sifth]

On the subject of possibly gay characters, I often wonder if Rhaegar was gay or possibly bisexual. It's said that he was kind to Elia, but never really loved her and we don't know what his feelings for Lyanna were, just that he needed a knew woman to produce a third heir, since be believed his 3 children were destined to save the world. It's constantly brought up that know one truly knew Rhaegar except for Arthur Dayne.

Maybe I'm just over thinking things and they just had a brotherly relationship, similar to Robert and Ned, but something about Rhaegar always made me wonder if he was gay. 

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

Rhaegar always made me wonder if he was gay.

He was a beautiful man who could sing beautifully, maybe it's this.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:30 PM, sifth said:

I don't recall Brienne ever questioning her gender. I only remember Cersei frequently wishing she were born a man.

She talks about it at several points, constantly talks about not fitting in with either gender, etc. Cersei wishes she was a man for...lack of better way to explain it, feminist reasons. Brienne wants to do male things...because she is masculine. It's different. Cersei wants to be a man because she doesn't like how she is treated as a woman. I guess I can understand an argument that Cersei is a trans man, but I don't really see it, as she seems to just be upset about the unfairness of womanhood in Westeros more than actually feeling displaced, or like she doesn't fit into womanhood/gender roles for women. Compare that to Brienne who quite literally takes on male roles in her society despite how badly everyone treats her for doing so. I should collect a series of quotes, maybe I will, but the biggest one is when she cries and says that her father deserves a son or a daughter, not her (i.e. she is neither a son or a daughter). 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

She talks about it at several points, constantly talks about not fitting in with either gender, etc. Cersei wishes she was a man for...lack of better way to explain it, feminist reasons. Brienne wants to do male things...because she is masculine. It's different. Cersei wants to be a man because she doesn't like how she is treated as a woman. I guess I can understand an argument that Cersei is a trans man, but I don't really see it, as she seems to just be upset about the unfairness of womanhood in Westeros more than actually feeling displaced, or like she doesn't fit into womanhood/gender roles for women. Compare that to Brienne who quite literally takes on male roles in her society despite how badly everyone treats her for doing so. I should collect a series of quotes, maybe I will, but the biggest one is when she cries and says that her father deserves a son or a daughter, not her (i.e. she is neither a son or a daughter). 

Brienne doesn't struggle with her gender identity but her inability to be what she is, a female knight. Her society has no name for that, so she can't properly express it, either. But she has no problems with her female body as such, simply the monstrous and freakish size of it. If her world allowed or accepted female knights she would be the happiest woman in Westeros.

Also, she does indeed only take up 'manly things' because her size and body allows her to do that ... and she gets positive feedback for that from her father's master-at-arms. A beautiful or or at least pretty yet strong Brienne - say, a woman like Visenya Targaryen or Jonquil Darke - might not have pursued a martial career even if she could have. She would have been content or even happy with the normal life of a highborn lady.

In a larger context it is also faulty to go with trans/queer or even gay as being a reality throughout history. The phenomena behind those societal constructs were always real, but not the concepts as such. Modern takes make sexuality a part of personal identity which many other or earlier societies did not. In that sense, gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, etc. are an invention of modernity. Ditto with trans people as trans being an identity. Projecting societal concepts on long dead people whose thoughts and feelings we don't actually know is wrong. Ditto, of course, with fictional people unless there is real evidence that such concepts played a role in the writing process.

Sarella Sand we first have to know to decide whether she actually feels like a man. I'd doubt that as she dresses up as a man for the specific purpose of studying at the Citadel. We have no reason to believe so far that she liked doing that back in Dorne, too.

Lysono Maar is very likely a cross dresser who likes to (unintentionally) fuck with Jon Connington's mind rather than a trans woman as he, apparently, goes by a male name. Ditto Racallio Ryndoon.

The Lannister king cross dressing as 'Queen Lorea' could, perhaps, be seen as a trans woman ... if that wasn't just an insult.

But I'd assume that the concept of transness as an identity doesn't exist in Martinworld - not in Westeros and not in any of the other cultures we know so far.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Delete this

Edited October 29, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

"A daughter," Brienne's eyes filled with tears. "He deserves that. A daughter who can sing to him and grace his hall and bear him grandsons. He deserves a son too, a strong and gallant son to bring honor to his name. Galladon drowned when I was four and he was eight, though, and Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle. I am the only child the gods let him keep. The freakish one, not fit to be a son or daughter." - This could literally be how I came out as nonbinary to my mom. Granted the terms are not identical, but it's pretty close. I don't know what to tell you folks, it's not just me. I have other trans and nonbinary friends who also view Brienne as nonbinary. My partner, who is admittedly a cis woman, views Brienne as nonbinary (and came to that conclusion separately to me before we even met). Because the feelings Brienne expresses here are EXTREMELY relatable. 

"No, I was my father's only s----child." - I have an honest question to all the cis people pretending you know about what it means to be nonbinary, have you ever almost accidentally called yourself the opposite gender. Called yourself a son (if you are a woman) or a daughter (if you are a man)? Hell, I've never even done this, and I'm nonbinary. Brienne thinks of herself as a son (at least on some level), not a daughter. That's why she slips up here. 

Honestly, final note - I said "head cannon". I was never claiming Brienne is canonically nonbinary. I would say she is gender non-conforming, but I'm sure crazed cis people will even fight against that (even though she...obviously doesn't conform to her society's gender roles, which is all that means), but I don't think she is absolutely nonbinary (as I doubt the author is involved heavily in the LGBT community, and the term "nonbinary" is used incorrectly constantly in the mainstream). It's just my headcannon, so stop trying to tell me I can't have the head cannon I want to have. It's mine! Of course, I can think it. This reminds me of when there was a topic on here and it was something like "Your headcannon takes" and then people were going on there to argue with people about their headcannon. That makes no sense. It's headcannon, it's supposed to be a take you don't think is completely backed up, and something you are just guessing at. The truth is NO CHARACTER from a book set in essentially the middle ages is ever going to come out and say, "I'm nonbinary" and if they did, I would probably find that cringe. You have to guess. Sexuality is much easier (because you just have to have romantic feelings/sexual feelings for that gender), but gender identity is very much in flux. It depends on your society, the cultural expectations around you, and how you yourself choose to define it. And because of that, with the exception of the author coming out and saying something...we could never prove this one way or the other (and GRRM won't do that, because he wants nonbinary fans to relate to Brienne, trust me). 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Gilbert Green]

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

"A daughter," Brienne's eyes filled with tears. "He deserves that. A daughter who can sing to him and grace his hall and bear him grandsons. He deserves a son too, a strong and gallant son to bring honor to his name. Galladon drowned when I was four and he was eight, though, and Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle. I am the only child the gods let him keep. The freakish one, not fit to be a son or daughter."

Brienne identifies as a women.  Just not a "fitting" or "proper" woman, rather a "freakish" one.    And she can't be a proper man, in her opinion, because she is, in her view, not  a man at all.  Nothing above contradicts that.  After all, if she were a man, she would certainly be strong and gallant enough.

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This could literally be how I came out as nonbinary to my mom. Granted the terms are not identical, but it's pretty close. I don't know what to tell you folks, it's not just me. I have other trans and nonbinary friends who also view Brienne as nonbinary. My partner, who is admittedly a cis woman, views Brienne as nonbinary (and came to that conclusion separately to me before we even met). Because the feelings Brienne expresses here are EXTREMELY relatable.

Being unhappy with oneself, especially in youth, is quite common.  But not everyone who has ever felt unhappy in his or her skin identifies as "non-binary" -- not even when born in the 21st century.

Identify with Brienne all you like.  We can relate to her too.  Stop trying to pull rank on us.

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Listen people : I am actually nonbinary. You aren't. Sit the fuck down.

Seems to me that you are being quite rude, and should apologize. 

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

"No, I was my father's only s----child." - I have an honest question to all the cis people pretending you know about what it means to be nonbinary, have you ever almost accidentally called yourself the opposite gender. Called yourself a son (if you are a woman) or a daughter (if you are a man)? Hell, I've never even done this, and I'm nonbinary. Brienne thinks of herself as a son (at least on some level), not a daughter. That's why she slips up here.

Regardless of Brienne's psychological reasons for "almost" slipping up, the reason she corrects herself, is because, in her opinion, "son" would not be the truth.

Sounds to me like her father was heartbroken by the loss of his son, and Brienne somehow ended up, from a very early age, trying to be the son he had lost.

Brienne identifies as a woman, because, in her opinion, that IS the truth.  Maybe not a "fitting" woman, in her opinion, but a woman nonetheless.

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, final note - I said "head cannon". I was never claiming Brienne is canonically nonbinary.

Why the rudeness, then?  People only wanted to discuss Brienne.  You are the only one trying to make yourself the center of the conversation.

19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I would say she is gender non-conforming, but I'm sure crazed cis people will even fight against that

Of course she is "gender non-conforming" to at least some extent.  As are the sort of girls that used to be called "tomboys". 

The vast majority of people who are to some extent "gender nonconforming" do not identify as non-binary.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

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Edited October 29, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall