Is it definitely true that Daeron I had no issue?

[Hippocras]

The official line is that Daeron I died at 18 years old with no issue. Is that an assumption, or has GRRM directly stated that Daeron had no children at all? I am asking because although young, he was old enough to have married by the time he became King, and both Aegon III and Viserys as Hand would have had interest in making sure the Crown Prince, then King, did marry. And yet it was Baelor who was married to Daena, while Daeron was still alive. Why? Was Daeron already married? I don't think this was about sexual preference as the stakes were too high to leave the succession insecure.

Is there any text-based reason to exclude the possibility that Daeron was married young and had a daughter, who was blocked from inheriting? I would venture that if such a girl existed and grew to adulthood, she was the elusive ancestor of Jena Dondarrion, and that Daeron's Marcher House marriage was part of the reason for his obsession with conquering Dorne. Or, that Baelor arranged his niece's betrothal in the Stormlands in gratitude for their help on his return from Dorne.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hippocras

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I first read it as “Is it true that Daeron and I had no issue”. I really need some coffee.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[James Steller]

I hope you brought snacks for this fishing expedition.

Joking aside, I wouldn’t be surprised if Daeron whelped a few bastards while on his conquest. But at the same time, he’s clearly based on Alexander the Great, and Alex was too busy campaigning to get married and have an heir. He wasn’t married until his mid twenties, and his heir was only born after he died. Daeron was clearly a busy guy trying to conquer Dorne, so even if he was married, he probably wasn’t sharing a bed with his queen for even a third of their married life together.

[Ran]

George's official family tree notes no wife and no children for Daeron. His follow-up notes for THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE also do not specify any spouse or children, when he lists Aegon III's kids and their offspring. 

As others say, he was like Alexander the Great... or, as I like to say, like Charles XII, the Swedish king who was entirely devoted to war and claimed he would put off marriage until "peace was secured". He won his first battles leading armies at the age of just-barely 18, and would die in curious circumstances during a siege of a Norwegian fortress 16 years later (various completing claims of what killed him went around, including someone from his own side out of desperation after he had kept Sweden at war for nearly 2 decades... but the likeliest cause was iron grapeshot from the Norwegians.)

[Hippocras]

37 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I hope you brought snacks for this fishing expedition.

Joking aside, I wouldn’t be surprised if Daeron whelped a few bastards while on his conquest. But at the same time, he’s clearly based on Alexander the Great, and Alex was too busy campaigning to get married and have an heir. He wasn’t married until his mid twenties, and his heir was only born after he died. Daeron was clearly a busy guy trying to conquer Dorne, so even if he was married, he probably wasn’t sharing a bed with his queen for even a third of their married life together.

Sure, I agree actually. But if Alexander had a child born after he died, maybe Daeron did too. A daughter very clearly, but still.

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

George's official family tree notes no wife and no children for Daeron. His follow-up notes for THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE also do not specify any spouse or children, when he lists Aegon III's kids and their offspring. 

As others say, he was like Alexander the Great... or, as I like to say, like Charles XII, the Swedish king who was entirely devoted to war and claimed he would put off marriage until "peace was secured". He won his first battles leading armies at the age of just-barely 18, and would die in curious circumstances during a siege of a Norwegian fortress 16 years later (various completing claims of what killed him went around, including someone from his own side out of desperation after he had kept Sweden at war for nearly 2 decades... but the likeliest cause was iron grapeshot from the Norwegians.)

I am very certain that GRRM simply not listing anything is a very different thing from him specifically saying that a character had no issue. There are very many instances of family trees left deliberately incomplete.

[Ran]

Don't really know what to tell you. George has repeatedly listed all the marriages in three different documents (four, technically, Daeron has not been listed with a spouse or offspring in 2 different family trees George created; the other two being his notes for the Daeron I through Aegon IV era and his written tree), and Daeron has been married in none of them, and has children in none of them. Finally, The World of Ice and Fire says:

Quote

The Young Dragon had never married, nor fathered children.

If you mean, could George decide to change his mind and insert a wife and/or children? Sure. Nothing in the ASoIaF work George has written independently and published has explicitly said Daeron died unmarried and/or without issue, and GRRM is okay with changes being made to TWoIaF if he decides something differently -- we'd remove that one line and maybe find some way to insert a passing reference to the wife/child.

But currently, the preponderance of evidence is that at least as late as 2014, Daeron did not have a wife or children.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Ran

[Hippocras]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

Don't really know what to tell you. George has repeatedly listed all the marriages in three different documents (four, technically, Daeron has not been listed with a spouse or offspring in 2 different family trees George created; the other two being his notes for the Daeron I through Aegon IV era and his written tree), and Daeron has been married in none of them, and has children in none of them. Finally, The World of Ice and Fire says:

If you mean, could George decide to change his mind and insert a wife and/or children? Sure. Nothing in the ASoIaF work George has written independently and published has explicitly said Daeron died unmarried and/or without issue, and GRRM is okay with changes being made to TWoIaF if he decides something differently -- we'd remove that one line and maybe find some way to insert a passing reference to the wife/child.

But currently, the preponderance of evidence is that at least as late as 2014, Daeron did not have a wife or children.

No, that satisfies the question. I wasn't sure if tbere was actually a specific statement, or if it was just an assumption because his brother succeeded him and the family tree was blank. But iif there is a specific statement, from GRRM's written or spoken words then that settles it.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, so far definitely no issue, but very much in favor of George adding some issue there. Daeron I would be the perfect king for a marriage late in his reign and a posthumous child being born months into the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

It is still odd as hell that Daeron I should marry off his eldest sister to his younger brother and not claim Daena himself. Even more so in light of the fact that he is apparently unwed at that time. In the wake of Viserys II's eldest son already having children of his own that kind of thing destabilizes the royal branch of House Targaryen. Daeron I needs heirs of his body, his brother and cousin are and can produces more spares, but it is his job to continue the royal bloodline, not Baelor's or Aegon's.

Daeron might still be young but death can knock at the door in a young(er) age, too, as the early death of Aegon III shows. And if Daeron I has only little children as heirs if he was to die then the his brother and cousin having older sons might cause succession problems.

There would definitely be potential for a story there in FaB II.

[James Steller]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, so far definitely no issue, but very much in favor of George adding some issue there. Daeron I would be the perfect king for a marriage late in his reign and a posthumous child being born months into the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

It is still odd as hell that Daeron I should marry off his eldest sister to his younger brother and not claim Daena himself. Even more so in light of the fact that he is apparently unwed at that time. In the wake of Viserys II's eldest son already having children of his own that kind of thing destabilizes the royal branch of House Targaryen. Daeron I needs heirs of his body, his brother and cousin are and can produces more spares, but it is his job to continue the royal bloodline, not Baelor's or Aegon's.

Daeron might still be young but death can knock at the door in a young(er) age, too, as the early death of Aegon III shows. And if Daeron I has only little children as heirs if he was to die then the his brother and cousin having older sons might cause succession problems.

There would definitely be potential for a story there in FaB II.

To be fair, Viserys’ return to the realm with an infant son was a stabilizing factor in the line of succession. Aegon’s reluctance to have kids, coupled with his bride being six years old, was no longer a problem with his brother as the heir and a young father. Maybe Daeron figured the same could apply to him while he focused on the conquest of Dorne. And if he’s Alexander, then maybe he was much more interested in one of his boyhood companions who was put in command of his cavalry during the campaign?

[Ran]

I point once more to Charles XII. This stuff really happened. His successor was his sister, Ulrika Elenora, who proceeded to never have children. Eventually, for various reasons, her husband was made king after she agreed to abdicate. And he was succeeded by someone entirely unrelated (having no issue from his wife, after all).

One war-mad boy king seems like a fair thing to have.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Ran

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

One war-mad boy king seems like a fair thing to have.

Although Charles XII had more valid reasons to go to war than Daeron ! did.

Charles had an alliance of three countries who wanted to bite off pieces of his territory. Daeron decided to conquer Dorne without being provoked.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, James Steller said:

To be fair, Viserys’ return to the realm with an infant son was a stabilizing factor in the line of succession. Aegon’s reluctance to have kids, coupled with his bride being six years old, was no longer a problem with his brother as the heir and a young father. Maybe Daeron figured the same could apply to him while he focused on the conquest of Dorne. And if he’s Alexander, then maybe he was much more interested in one of his boyhood companions who was put in command of his cavalry during the campaign?

The strange thing is both the relatively early wedding of Aegon-Naerys as well as the early wedding of Baelor-Daena.

Alexander had multiple wives and fathered a son.

In context, it is odd that Aegon III would allow the Aegon-Naerys match and would, perhaps, even betroth Baelor to Daena while making a match for his son and heir. Of course, it could - and likely will - turn out that Daeron I was betrothed even if he never married ... but even then it is odd as hell that Daeron I would force his brother into a marriage to a sister he could have claimed himself (Baelor would have never been keen to marry even before his snake pit experience) before he married himself. If George sticks to the MUSH stuff TWoIaF included an unmarried Daeron I would even broker a match for his sister Rhaena to the Sealord of Braavos.

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I point once more to Charles XII. This stuff really happened.

Yeah, it happened in more modern days, with a modern state and an established dynasty and a clear succession law. Frederick the Great of Prussia was married, but never bothered begetting an heir yet retained control of his state and succession.

Mere decades after the Dance and with a father who was doing his duty to the dynasty rather late we cannot really expect nobody made a match for Daeron, nobody pushed him to marry after he took the throne as early as he did, or that nobody raised him to understand his duty to the dynasty.

Marriage in this society is a duty, not something you do because you feel like it. And Daeron I clearly understood this, or else Baelor and Daena wouldn't have married each other nor would he himself have brokered a match for his other sister Rhaena.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although Charles XII had more valid reasons to go to war than Daeron ! did.

Charles had an alliance of three countries who wanted to bite off pieces of his territory. Daeron decided to conquer Dorne without being provoked.

Mayhaps!

[Hippocras]

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although Charles XII had more valid reasons to go to war than Daeron ! did.

Charles had an alliance of three countries who wanted to bite off pieces of his territory. Daeron decided to conquer Dorne without being provoked.

From what I recall there was provocation. Aliandra Martell thought provocation was a fun way for her vasals to win her favour.

[Lord Varys]

Plot-wise there is ample opportunity for Daeron's war to be anything but unprovoked. As things stand, we can assume that the Dragonbane might be tight up in quite a few rebellions and uprisings, not just the Alys Rivers thing but also the fake Daerons.

Any such campaign would provide the Dornishmen with a perfect opportunity to raid the Dornish Marches or even take their armies deeper into the Stormlands or the Reach. They could even conquer some territory there for a time if the Iron Throne was unable or unwilling to fight back.

Daeron I does need some reason as to why he would want to conquer Dorne. If relations had been as fine with Sunspear throughout his entire childhood as they were when his great-grandfather Viserys I was considering to marry Daeron's grandmother to the Prince of Dorne then the chances for a war would have been very low.

So the chances that Daeron I had good or at least adequate reasons for his campaign are actually pretty good.

[Arrow of the Morning]

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The official line is that Daeron I died at 18 years old with no issue. Is that an assumption, or has GRRM directly stated that Daeron had no children at all? I am asking because although young, he was old enough to have married by the time he became King, and both Aegon III and Viserys as Hand would have had interest in making sure the Crown Prince, then King, did marry. And yet it was Baelor who was married to Daena, while Daeron was still alive. Why? Was Daeron already married? I don't think this was about sexual preference as the stakes were too high to leave the succession insecure.

Is there any text-based reason to exclude the possibility that Daeron was married young and had a daughter, who was blocked from inheriting? I would venture that if such a girl existed and grew to adulthood, she was the elusive ancestor of Jena Dondarrion, and that Daeron's Marcher House marriage was part of the reason for his obsession with conquering Dorne. Or, that Baelor arranged his niece's betrothal in the Stormlands in gratitude for their help on his return from Dorne.

 Daeron I did not marry or left children, be then legitimate or not. No source and genealogy show he leaving offspring. I agree that is odd that his parents didn't marry him nor betrothed him before, while arranging the marriage of two of his younger siblings, but as far as we know nobody in Westeros called it strange or abnormal. Daeron not wanting to marry or being too absorbed in his wars to arrange one after being crowned is other issue.

About Jena Dondarrion marriage with the crown prince, I don't think it was due to her having Targaryen or Valyrian blood, but a way for Daeron II to settle any animosity caused by his union with the Dornish princess, Such sentiment caused a revolt later, so it was wise to try to placate it.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

 Daeron I did not marry or left children, be then legitimate or not. No source and genealogy show he leaving offspring.

On the other hand, Daeron is in one of the relative "black holes" of Westerosi history where our information about him remains relatively limited. (The other big one is the reigns of Maekar and Aegon V). There are doubtless stories to be told there.

Worth noting that back in 2008 GRRM did say that Daeron I was married, although no information on that has made its way onto the wiki or into TWoIaF. He did say even then that he died without issue, though.

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

 Daeron I did not marry or left children, be then legitimate or not. No source and genealogy show he leaving offspring. I agree that is odd that his parents didn't marry him nor betrothed him before, while arranging the marriage of two of his younger siblings, but as far as we know nobody in Westeros called it strange or abnormal. Daeron not wanting to marry or being too absorbed in his wars to arrange one after being crowned is other issue.

About Jena Dondarrion marriage with the crown prince, I don't think it was due to her having Targaryen or Valyrian blood, but a way for Daeron II to settle any animosity caused by his union with the Dornish princess, Such sentiment caused a revolt later, so it was wise to try to placate it.

I think it is both. Sorry.

The reason is, the splaying branches of the Targ family tree during the Blackfyre rebellions was just too dangerous. They absolutely needed to contain their sprawling family tree and re-integrate descendants of the women who were passed over for the crown. I think it is naive for readers to look at all of those women who were directly in line but snubbed, and think they were just fine with it all.

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

On the other hand, Daeron is in one of the relative "black holes" of Westerosi history where our information about him remains relatively limited. (The other big one is the reigns of Maekar and Aegon V). There are doubtless stories to be told there.

Worth noting that back in 2008 GRRM did say that Daeron I was married, although no information on that has made its way onto the wiki or into TWoIaF. He did say even then that he died without issue, though.

Did he? Or did he say he died without an heir? Not the same thing so an important distinction. I mean, I read that page and have no way of double checking that such an error was not made because I did not hear it from GRRM, or read it from what he wrote.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Hippocras