What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

It doesn't need to be an alien hive mind, the oligarchy is ultimately the responsible for that and mind you, they picked the children inside the city.

The same way that everyone in the senior ranks of Hitler’s government, and the Nazi Party, knew very well what was being done in the East, even if they were not directly responsible, and they continued to work for the regime.  

I view the summary execution of 163 Great Masters as being similar to Churchill’s proposal to summarily execute several hundred leading Nazis.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Maybe Daario is a conjurer and used magic to keep 163 children hidden, and to nail them to crosses, while nobody else noticed him doing so.

Or maybe Dany nailed them up and pretended it was the Masters.  After all, she was present at the scene of the crime.

 

I think it was Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal. They flew ahead "hunting", but really, they were nailing up slave children. 

I mean, I think my theory is honestly as plausible as it being Daario, so why not? 

P.s. Just in case no one knows, this was pure sarcasm (with a hint of disbelief, as I can't believe anyone thinks something so preposterous and expects others to join them in believing it, lol)

[SaffronLady]

29 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think it was Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal. They flew ahead "hunting", but really, they were nailing up slave children. 

TBF, dragons in GRRM's world don't have the thumbs necessary to do such delicate work as nailing people to crosses. And it's non-predatory, dragons haven't demonstrated that level of intellect and intentional cruelty. The unique province of humans and chimps, if chimps exist on Sothyros or an island somewhere on Planetos.

[Gilbert Green]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

The same way that everyone in the senior ranks of Hitler’s government, and the Nazi Party, knew very well what was being done in the East, even if they were not directly responsible, and they continued to work for the regime.  

I view the summary execution of 163 Great Masters as being similar to Churchill’s proposal to summarily execute several hundred leading Nazis.

Not everyone agrees with Churchill's proposal.  And GRRM might be one of them.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

TBF, dragons in GRRM's world don't have the thumbs necessary to do such delicate work as nailing people to crosses. And it's non-predatory, dragons haven't demonstrated that level of intellect and intentional cruelty. The unique province of humans and chimps, if chimps exist on Sothyros or an island somewhere on Planetos.

That’s my point @SaffronLady : I chose something literally impossible on purpose. Because it is just as likely as Daario doing it, ie a 0% chance

Also in real life, many species of dolphins have shown that level of cruelty such as bottlenose dolphins and orcas.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

That’s my point @SaffronLady : I chose something literally impossible on purpose. Because it is just as likely as Daario doing it, ie a 0% chance

Also in real life, many species of dolphins have shown that level of cruelty such as bottlenose dolphins and orcas.

Cats are pretty spiteful, too.

Edited November 21, 2023 by SeanF

[SaffronLady]

7 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also in real life, many species of dolphins have shown that level of cruelty such as bottlenose dolphins and orcas.

Even dolphins? I don't know to be happy at such displays of intelligence or sad at such displays of cruelty.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Cats are pretty spiteful, too.

Cats appear spiteful when seen through the lens of not understanding cat behavior. Most cat behavior can be explained relatively easily though, and no, they aren't spiteful. Cats are misunderstood by the vast majority of people, as people want them to be dogs (and have a better grasp on dog behavior), but they aren't dogs. 

Just as an example, cats sometimes "play with their food", however, the behavior can be explained as it is a hunting technique meant to tire out the prey. Seen today in pet or feral cats, even if it seems they could make the easy cool..that isn't how instinctual hunting techniques work. Essentially the cat has no concept of that ...mouse's suffering, so it can't be acting in cruel ways toward it, it is just doing some hunting technique it evolved to do. In this case, I would say the mistake people are making is thinking cats think like people...when they don't, they think like cats. The cat isn't thinking, "Suffer little mouse." It's thinking, "Let me tire out this mouse so it is easier to kill." 

The only animals capable of cruelty would be animals capable of understanding what cruelty even is, which would mean the animals would have to have a certain level of emotional intelligence that is fairly rare. I've never like specifically studied this, but I would guess....animals like corvid birds (ravens, magpies, crows, jays, etc), parrots, highly social primates, and cetaceans (whales and dolphins) might be the only animal groups capable of cruelty currently alive. Note : maybe also elephants, but I never specifically studied their intelligence so I'm not sure. 

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Even dolphins? I don't know to be happy at such displays of intelligence or sad at such displays of cruelty.

Dolphins (and other highly intelligent animals) are also capable of great kindness that other animals are not capable of as well. I think could be a glass half full/half empty kind of situation. Intelligence does allow for cruelty, but it also allows for kindness. There are a ton of stories about dolphins saving people or other cetaceans for....basically no reason, including putting their own lives at risk. They are capable of selflessness (which other animals are not capable of). 

Still, on a glass half empty note : Humans are the worst. Particularly now. As I said, we are also capable of great cruelty or great empathy/kindness, yet we have chosen to destroy most of the world, disregarding animal life as less important than our own. Anything dolphins (or chimps) do quite rarely is essentially a constant everyday thing for humans. I remember distinctly in high school that some boys would laugh and joke about how they purposely hit animals on the roads (such as raccoons, opossums, or yes, even cats). I remember thinking those boys were evil, and I'm not sure I've ever changed my mind about it. I can't imagine disregarding another animal's right to live out of...essentially boredom, nor thinking that it was funny to joke about it. And they did it...casually. Sorry, I got a bit real here. 

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Not everyone agrees with Churchill's proposal.  And GRRM might be one of them.

Well, yeah, that's why I didn't happen IRL. But if the moral is "collective punishment is unreasonable", that moral is only undercut by having the group in question framed for the crime. 

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I remember distinctly in high school that some boys would laugh and joke about how they purposely hit animals on the roads (such as raccoons, opossums, or yes, even cats). I remember thinking those boys were evil, and I'm not sure I've ever changed my mind about it. I can't imagine disregarding another animal's right to live out of...essentially boredom, nor thinking that it was funny to joke about it. And they did it...casually. Sorry, I got a bit real here. 

Reminds me of my own attempt to flush out a termite hill.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Well, yeah, that's why I didn't happen IRL. But if the moral is "collective punishment is unreasonable", that moral is only undercut by having the group in question framed for the crime. 

My own view is that Churchill’s proposal was a reasonable one.

In reality, after WWII, a very few guilty people were placed on trial;  a rather larger number were summarily lynched;  and the vast majority melted back into civilian life, many of them prospering in due course.

I think a better criticism of Dany’s action is that lots of guilty men walked free (and were left in a position to cause harm in the future), rather than innocents died (no Great Master is innocent).

Dany chose a half-measure, when she should have gone all the way.