What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He raped a prostitute. He did not have rough sex with her. She did not have sex with him, and then he had sex with her. That's rape. Rape defintion below for you : 

Rape is a type of sexual assault involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without their consent.

That is what Tyrion did. Spot for spot. It's actually extremely similar to what Bran did to Hodor. 

She didn't really consent cuz she's a slave, true. But she did work at a brothel and was a prostitute. 

Prostitution even today often involves sexslavery with pimps cruelly forcing and threatening and all that. Does this make nearly every John a rapist? A chaoticlly evil one?

Hodor actively struggled and called out for him to stop. Next to Jeynes wedding night I think that's like the cruelst read in the story

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

13 minutes ago, sifth said:

The thing is Cersei lies and even to herself. In her own mind Joff was a kind and noble boy and not the monster we all love to hate. Hurting the Blue Bard, was a just act for THE GREATER GOOD. Kevan is a weak and stupid man. So I have a hard time taking anything she says or thinks, with any form of honesty. 
 

 

When Cersei remembers Joff being a "good boy", she remembers him doing the bad things. She lies to herself, but in her head, she does not erase the actions. For example, she still remembers him doing bad stuff to a cat. She then excuses the actions.

When she does bad things to the Blue Bard, yet again, she excuses the actions, but....she feels disgust and she is having to make the excuses because she sees what is happening in front of her. 

None of the things Cersei lies to herself about...aren't present in the text. They are there. We SEE her lie to herself. It's right in front of us (both things that happened in the past and in the present). She remembers what the other characters actually said or did even as she excuses the horrible things she did. 

Honestly, I just sent an email to GRRM. Yes, really. I doubt he replies, but screw it, I'm giving it a shot. I asked him to confirm that Robert raped Cersei. I am tired of this argument. If I quote the damn author himself, will y'all finally stop? 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She didn't really consent cuz she's a slave, true. But she did work at a brothel and was a prostitute. 

Prostitution even today often involves sexslavery with pimps cruelly forcing and threatening and all that. Does this make nearly every John a rapist? A chaoticlly evil one?

Hodor actively struggled and called out for him to stop. Next to Jeynes wedding night I think that's like the cruelst read in the story

Yes, slaves who are raped when they are slaves...are still being raped. Yes, it would make any John a rapist who is having sex with a woman he knows is not actually consenting to the act. Yes. It does. If the John does not know that the woman is not consenting to the act, then I guess no. It would make whoever is forcing them the rapist. However, 1,000% Tyrion knew, so....that isn't even a question you should be asking, as it is unrelated. 

What Bran is doing to Hodor is wrong. I agree. It's gross also. Particularly when he does it when there isn't even a reason to do it (from my memory, he does it to protect his group over and over, but by the end he just starts doing it). Yes, it's an evil act. Bran's path is honestly scary. He could very well end the series in the "evil" category. We'll have to see. Again, my reason for not putting him there yet..is I don't think he realizes how bad what he is doing is. He is...8 (8 right?). I really don't think he gets it. Tyrion is an adult man and knows exactly what he is doing. 

Here, let's put it this way. I think if Jojen or Meera found out about it, and then said, "Bran, that is wrong, stop doing it," that Bran..would stop doing it. If someone found out Tyrion was raping slaves.....and said, "Tyrion, that is wrong, stop doing it," I very much doubt it would have any effect on him. He already knows it is wrong. Someone saying that wouldn't change that. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She didn't really consent cuz she's a slave, true. But she did work at a brothel and was a prostitute. 

Prostitution even today often involves sexslavery with pimps cruelly forcing and threatening and all that. Does this make nearly every John a rapist? A chaoticlly evil one?

Hodor actively struggled and called out for him to stop. Next to Jeynes wedding night I think that's like the cruelst read in the story

Tyrion knew that what he was doing was wrong.  He saw the whip marks on the woman's back, and that she seemed catatonic.  It was a straightforward case of rape, just as anyone who took advantage of Jeyne Poole,  in LF's brothel, was committing rape.

Having sex with a woman who you know to be trafficked is rape, at a moral level, and usually, at a legal level.  Tyrion knew the woman was a slave, and anyone who had sex with Jeyne Poole would know she was not there of her own free will (again, the whip marks attest to that, as well as very young age).

Edited November 2, 2023 by SeanF

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, slaves who are raped when they are slaves...are still being raped. Yes, it would make any John a rapist who is having sex with a woman he knows is not actually consenting to the act. Yes. It does. If the John does not know that the woman is not consenting to the act, then I guess no. It would make whoever is forcing them the rapist. However, 1,000% Tyrion knew, so....that isn't even a question you should be asking, as it is unrelated. 

Fair enough, when in Rome is still horrible. 

I still think there's levels between him and Gregor or Robert. 

9 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What Bran is doing to Hodor is wrong. I agree. It's gross also. Particularly when he does it when there isn't even a reason to do it (from my memory, he does it to protect his group over and over, but by the end he just starts doing it). Yes, it's an evil act. Bran's path is honestly scary. He could very well end the series in the "evil" category. We'll have to see. Again, my reason for not putting him there yet..is I don't think he realizes how bad what he is doing is. He is...8 (8 right?). I really don't think he gets it. Tyrion is an adult man and knows exactly what he is doing

Bran was told cannibalism is wrong, told skinchanging into humans was wrong and did both.  In fact after Hodor is actively in displeasure Bran goes into him again.

But I just used him as a quick example, all of those I listed above, and plenty others, have done stuff reprehensible,  but their goodness still potentially outshines. Arya is a good example of this, but I think so is Tyrion. Throughout the story,  even in adwd, they remain heroic. 

And that's how heroes are. George Washington was the largest slave owner in Virginia,  Anakin Skywalker didnt just kill the men, but the women, and the children. 

15 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Here, let's put it this way. I think if Jojen or Meera found out about it, and then said, "Bran, that is wrong, stop doing it," that Bran..would stop doing it. If someone found out Tyrion was raping slaves.....and said, "Tyrion, that is wrong, stop doing it," I very much doubt it would have any effect on him. He already knows it is wrong. Someone saying that wouldn't change that. 

It may very well.  Tyrion is battling hardcore amounts of mental health, the crossbow bolt chimes in his mind like the minute hand. He's a fugitive who Illyrio describes as "nothing," and is shit faced drunk, given free reign after being cut off from liquor for the past journey. 

I think someone saying snap out if it and get back to reality is exactly what Tyrion needed, one of Penny's many great contributions to the story. But that's later

[sifth]

53 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

When Cersei remembers Joff being a "good boy", she remembers him doing the bad things. She lies to herself, but in her head, she does not erase the actions. For example, she still remembers him doing bad stuff to a cat. She then excuses the actions.

When she does bad things to the Blue Bard, yet again, she excuses the actions, but....she feels disgust and she is having to make the excuses because she sees what is happening in front of her. 

None of the things Cersei lies to herself about...aren't present in the text. They are there. We SEE her lie to herself. It's right in front of us (both things that happened in the past and in the present). She remembers what the other characters actually said or did even as she excuses the horrible things she did. 

Honestly, I just sent an email to GRRM. Yes, really. I doubt he replies, but screw it, I'm giving it a shot. I asked him to confirm that Robert raped Cersei. I am tired of this argument. If I quote the damn author himself, will y'all finally stop? 

It’s cool, believe what you want. I just don’t trust anything that lady says, given she’s a unreliable narrator and a compulsive liar.

[KingAerys_II]

Aeron was pow during Greyjoy rebellions and he had some fun, the near death experience turned him into a fanatic devoted to the Drowned God. Tywin is not a man who enjoyed torture of important pows, I think he would have considered the behavior of Joffrey towards Sansa, cruel and stupid. It's wrong he would have watched the torture of the Blue Bard as Cersei stated, he considered the marriage of Tommen and Maergery a good deal, everyone with sanity would including Jaime, instead Cersei boycotted Maergery and restored the Faith Militant that are almost as dangerous as dragons 

Edited November 2, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He does not do such thing. He is hostile to Tyrion and hates the dwarf, but he does not treat him poorly. He goes to war to rescue him, he let's the dwarf travel and spend his money on whatever he wants. He let him into his war council, made him hand, and when he goes after Tyrion is because the BS Tyrion said against Tommen, and for the murder of Joffrey.

Tywin is beyond nice towards Jaime that it's cleary his favorite.

Tywin is not great to Cersei, but he is far from terrible. He never goes after her, even when he sees her bs (when she puts the blame of Joffrey's words into Robert's)

Honestly, I wanted someone else to take this, as its such a bad take, but, lets take it. Let's first remind everyone what good ole' Arthur Perez was reacting to : "Treating his children like shit after they don't do what he wants is pointless cruelty." - Me

1. He had Tyrion's wife raped. He forced Tyrion to join in on the rape of his wife. It has traumatized Tyrion for life (and we can probably assume the same for Tysha, although we don't see her). This was because Tyrion did something he didn't want him to do. 

2. Most of Tyrion's plot in ACoK revolves around hiding Shae SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE Tywin will murder her horrifically and otherwise punish Tyrion if he finds out of her existence. Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do, because his father will punish him. 

3. Lol, the Jaime comment. Lol. Beyond nice. Tywin Lannister. My god man, are we reading the same books? Anyways, Jaime refuses to do what Tywin asks him to do, so Tywin disowns him. You know, beyond nice thing to do to your children. They try to live their own lives, so you...quite literally stop being their parent. When they are in their mid 30s mind you, lol. Dude. 

4. He treats Cersei like a brood mare (I think that was her words, but they are accurate). He forces her to marry whenever he wants to, and could care less on her opinion on the matter. His actions lack all normal signs of love..or parenting. I don't think Tywin once has an interaction with Cersei that show even the slightest sign of "parenting". He treats her like a pawn. Since again, what we are responding to was me saying he treats them like crap when they don't do what he wants them to do. Yet again, when Cersei attempts to do anything Tywin doesn't approve, he treats her like a small child. This 30-something year old woman. Tyrion even points out (it's his PoV) that Cersei just order him (she is the queen regent, not him). When she refuses to get married, he just essentially ignores her (when again, he didn't really have the right to marry her off I don't think..she's the queen regent). 

Okay, now that I've covered the specific above situations of how he treated his children when they didn't listen to him, let's be more specific about "cruelty" that has nothing to do with listening to him :

1. He hates Tyrion. He does not hide this. He tells it to him. I am not going to quote the speech, but the speech following Tyrion's request of Casterly Rock is one of the cruelest speeches I have ever heard. There is no reason for it. He doesn't need to do it. It doesn't accomplish any goal. It's just cruel. He just hates Tyrion, blindly, and for unjustifiable, prejudice, and petty reasons; and he treats a human being like absolute garbage. Giving Tyrion positions...doesn't matter much, when you are a terrible parent who withholds the VERY BASIC thing all parents are supposed to give their children : Love. 

2. Jaime was his favorite, not because Jaime is Jaime..but because Tywin is projecting onto Jaime. He is trying to make Jaime into his perfect heir, however..repeatedly Jaime goes against that, and what little reaction we see between Jaime and Tywin is 100% hostile, yet again, non-loving (the basic thing parents are suppossed to give), and dismissive of Jaime as a person with his own wants and needs. That's cruel. 

3. Cersei, as I've already mentioned, he treats as a pawn. He doesn't show her love. He tells her what to do forcefully, and without any care for her wants and desires. Honestly, you know why Cersei is the way she is? She tries to be Tywin...but she tries to be Tywin without Tywin actually giving her any education in how to be Tywin. She basically looks up to her father, and he could care less about that. That's cruel. That's needlessly cruel, yet again. 

"He never goes after her, even when he sees her bs" - Honestly, this concept is one of the more horrific things I've seen in this forum. . You are gaslighting Jaime, Tyrion, and Cersei for Tywin in this response. Honestly man, honestly, controlling parenting is bad. It's really bad. It causes serious and permanent damage to the children. I need you to hear this. If someone is telling you that being controlling is acceptable for a parent (like how Tywin acts), it isn't. He is dismissive, unloving, controlling, and above all uncaring of his children's wants and needs. He literally...does not care about them. He gives Tyrion positions because he is his son and that looks good to others (not because he loves him) and tells Tyrion to his face, repeatedly, that he doesn't love him. He holds up Jaime in a good light because he projects himself on Jaime and when Jaime refuses to be that projection, he disowns him. He marries off Cersei because it will help him make alliances and doesn't care how she feels about it. 

Honestly Arthur - Emotional neglect is one of the worse things you can do to a child. It's cruel. I've been a teacher for 14 years, and I've seen a handful of actively depressed small children (most children are happy no matter what). In every case that the child was depressed, their parent was neglectful. Every single time. It isn't just cruel, it is one of the worst forms of cruelty/abuse you can subject on a child as a parent. If you are going to argue Tywin was just "logical"...if a person is completely logical and incapable of expressing love, to be blunt, they shouldn't have children. Those children will have life long issues. You have to....be loving. That is part of what it means to be a parent. You have to express your love and your children have to know you love them. If not...then yes, you are being cruel. You are being emotionally abusive/neglectful to that child. And this is 100% how Tywin treated his children. Hell, even Cersei shows more love to her children than Tywin does (and she is also emotionally abusive). 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Arthur Peres]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

2. Most of Tyrion's plot in ACoK revolves around hiding Shae SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE Tywin will murder her horrifically and otherwise punish Tyrion if he finds out of her existence. Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do, because his father will punish him. 

 

Except he won't... he did find out about her and did none of the things you decribed... he used her as a prostitute and as witness to screw Tyrion.

Bring Shae was a terrible idea and that is the reason why Tywin forbade him. Tyrion gets into a piss contest with Cersei and end's up threating Tommen over a whore.

I don't like Tywin let's make this very clear.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

3. Lol, the Jaime comment. Lol. Beyond nice. Tywin Lannister. My god man, are we reading the same books? Anyways, Jaime refuses to do what Tywin asks him to do, so Tywin disowns him. You know, beyond nice thing to do to your children. They try to live their own lives, so you...quite literally stop being their parent. When they are in their mid 30s mind you, lol. Dude. 

 

Well he is. Jaime never gets punished for his actions because of big daddy Tywin. He is protected and shelter from his crimes, erros and everything else. 

Jaime gets a Valyrian steel sword, a golden armor, Tywin cleary sees him as his heir, places him in command of his army and so on.

Jaime of the three is the most rebel against Tywin and the one that is treated the better, he is cleary the favorite and by Jaime's own words Tywin is one of the few people that he cares about...

 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

3. Cersei, as I've already mentioned, he treats as a pawn. He doesn't show her love. He tells her what to do forcefully, and without any care for her wants and desires. Honestly, you know why Cersei is the way she is? She tries to be Tywin...but she tries to be Tywin without Tywin actually giving her any education in how to be Tywin. She basically looks up to her father, and he could care less about that. That's cruel. That's needlessly cruel, yet again. 

Yes, he is no diferent than Doran or Mace pushing their daughters into matches they probably do not want. This is Westeros. The reason why Tywin wants her to marry again is to end the rumors of the bastards. She is given her choices and let's her make the final call on the matter and even lets her stall a bit.

Cersei needs to be controled. When Tywin left her to her own devices she started a war with several regions, executed their best hostage, and let Barristan be kicked out of the KG while replacing him with Sandor. Of course he does not trust her with any real power, look what she did as regent, she ended up losing control over the council, the city and being imprisoned by the faction she raised to power. By Cersei's own security she should not be allowed to make the big calls.

You talk like Tywin is trying to impose his will on a normal person. It's not the case. Had Cersei proven herself a decent regent Tywin would never send Tyrion of all people to take her place.

 

 

 

Of course Tywin is a horrible parent, he is cold, distant, judmental, hypocrite and a general asshole. Every single topic about worst parent Tywin is always among the top 5 of the list and I agree with the majority. The thing is that being a parent is just part of the problem of Tywin and Cersei.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

Honestly Arthur - Emotional neglect is one of the worse things you can do to a child. It's cruel. I've been a teacher for 14 years, and I've seen a handful of actively depressed small children (most children are happy no matter what). In every case that the child was depressed, their parent was neglectful. Every single time. It isn't just cruel, it is one of the worst forms of cruelty/abuse you can subject on a child as a parent. If you are going to argue Tywin was just "logical"...if a person is completely logical and incapable of expressing love, to be blunt, they shouldn't have children. Those children will have life long issues. You have to....be loving. That is part of what it means to be a parent. You have to express your love and your children have to know you love them. If not...then yes, you are being cruel. You are being emotionally abusive/neglectful to that child. And this is 100% how Tywin treated his children. Hell, even Cersei shows more love to her children than Tywin does (and she is also emotionally abusive). 

Tywin is the worst, certainly, but the problem is also systemic.

Upper class parents do essentially see their children as chess pieces on a board in this world (and until perhaps thirty years ago, in the real world).  One can't overstate how strange the upper class upbringing is.   Children are raised by servants, tutors, Maesters, and then fostered with other lordly families, or else sent to court to be pages, and ladies' companions.

The amount of time that upper class parents spend with their own children (compared to the smallfolk) is very limited.  Parents and children are almost strangers to each other.

[Kal-L]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Tywin is the worst, certainly, but the problem is also systemic.

Upper class parents do essentially see their children as chess pieces on a board in this world (and until perhaps thirty years ago, in the real world).  One can't overstate how strange the upper class upbringing is.   Children are raised by servants, tutors, Maesters, and then fostered with other lordly families, or else sent to court to be pages, and ladies' companions.

The amount of time that upper class parents spend with their own children (compared to the smallfolk) is very limited.  Parents and children are almost strangers to each other.

Pretty much this.

While Tywin is a terrible father and a horrible human being overall, we have to take into account the context surrounding the characters. Lord Rickard Stark attempted to marry his eldest son and his only daughter to complete strangers (at the time the pact were made), and we know how it ended. Was Rickard a cruel unloving father ? I don't think so, I think he was man of his time, like King Aegon V.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tywin is the worst, certainly, but the problem is also systemic.

Upper class parents do essentially see their children as chess pieces on a board in this world (and until perhaps thirty years ago, in the real world).  One can't overstate how strange the upper class upbringing is.   Children are raised by servants, tutors, Maesters, and then fostered with other lordly families, or else sent to court to be pages, and ladies' companions.

The amount of time that upper class parents spend with their own children (compared to the smallfolk) is very limited.  Parents and children are almost strangers to each other.

Listen, I've used this point like 100 times. But here we go again. No, that's not true. I live in Korea. Most parents here send their kids to private tutors, private academies, and private schools. The average middle class child easily goes to school for 10 hours a day from the age of like 6. The average upper class kid, honestly, they seriously are either in class, with a tutor, or doing homework again as early as 6 years old essentially constantly. The parents themselves also often work 60-70 hours per week, and this is often BOTH parents. On top of that, there is business trips, hwaesik (essentially required dinner with your coworkers and boss), and other required events in a lot of businesses. To be blunt, they are as busy as what I see the upper class being in Westeros. 

The kids and their parents are still not strangers. They all love their parents. They often have active relationships with said parents. The cultural expectation of working constantly...is bad, but they dynamic between the kids and their parents are not what you are painting. Like at all. And, the truth is, in our books...we see that this is not true. Catelyn and Eddard spend time with their children. Their children love them. Catelyn's parents and Eddard's parents also spent time with their children, and they loved their parents. Margerry, Loras, and Garlan Tyrell also appear to have active relationships with their family members including their parents. The Sand Snakes all had active and loving relationships with Oberyn Martell. Tytos Blackwood, my own self, did not want his daughter sent off to King's Landing as he obviously had a loving relationship with her. 

Yes, there are examples of strained and unloving relationships...but they aren't all the relationships. The kids who were neglected, who I mentioned, were not the norm, despite the crazy work hours and school hours. Most of the kids DID have relationships with their parents despite the fact that they absolutely spend more time with tutors or nannies then their parents. I once figured out when I was teaching Kindergarten, that I myself spent more time with my class of 5 year olds than their parents did. They still loved, looked up to, and had active relationships with those parents..that they just didn't have with me. Parents are parents, even if you spend less time with them. It's a different dynamic. 

Do I think there are many, MANY systematic problems in Westeros? Yes. Do I think that a system where children are used as tools for marriage alliances..or other alliances or as hostages is indeed a systematic problem? Yes, I absolutely think that is true. You are correct. However, using it as an excuse for Tywin's relationship with Cersei, Tyrion, and Joffrey is ridiculous. He is a shit parent. He would be a shit parent in a different system. Because he is a horrible person. Westerosi nobles are MORE than capable of creating realtionships that are healthy with their children, or at least having a somewhat loving relationship (Davos and his sons or Doran and Arianne come to mind, where the dynamic is far from perfect, but they still seem to love each other)....that Tywin doesn't have...AT ALL. Because he is an absoltue garbage human, and an absolute garbage father. He did not have to be stranger to his kids, he chose to be, because he didn't give a shit about them as actual people, only as pawns/tools for him to use to gain personal/family power. 

4 hours ago, Kal-L said:

While Tywin is a terrible father and a horrible human being overall, we have to take into account the context surrounding the characters. Lord Rickard Stark attempted to marry his eldest son and his only daughter to complete strangers (at the time the pact were made), and we know how it ended. Was Rickard a cruel unloving father ? I don't think so, I think he was man of his time, like King Aegon V.

That isn't the same. Rickard tried to do marriage packs. He otherwise loved his children (from what we read). Tywin gives 0 shit about his children, and also did marriage packs. You are comparing apples and oranges and noticing they are both fruit (and the orange is rotten and black with mold. The orange is Tywin as a parent). 

[Dofs]

17 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

2. Most of Tyrion's plot in ACoK revolves around hiding Shae SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE Tywin will murder her horrifically and otherwise punish Tyrion if he finds out of her existence. Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do, because his father will punish him. 

Eh, but Tyrion most of the times can do what he wants as an adult. In the first book his life is just him enjoying himself, doing whatever he wanted with the unlimited money Tywin was allowing him to have.

Tywin forbade him from bringing Shae to court when he sent him on a mission to act as Hand of the King in his name. Sure, Tywin had his own reasons for forbidding Tyrion to do that, mostly due to his memories of his father, but Tyrion wasn't exactly a free living person in KL either, he was on a job from Tywin.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Dofs

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 hours ago, Dofs said:

Eh, but Tyrion most of the times can do what he wants as an adult. In the first book his life is just him enjoying himself, doing whatever he wanted with the unlimited money Tywin was allowing him to have.

Tywin forbade him from bringing Shae to court when he sent him on a mission to act as Hand of the King in his name. Sure, Tywin had his own reasons for forbidding Tyrion to do that, mostly due to his memories of his father, but Tyrion wasn't exactly a free living person in KL either, he was on a job from Tywin.

 

Giving a child money (as a rich person) is....just normal. That's what rich people do. I would actually argue it's bad parenting, and leads to entitled children. The number of rich children I knew (I'm old) who just got to travel around and do as they wanted...is..all of them. Again, it's not a good sign of good parenting. Even if you think it's  a fine thing to do...it's still just normal, not good parenting. All rich people do it. 

Again, being controlling...is bad. If your parent, or your spouse, or some other person is controlling what you do folks, it's not healthy. The amoutn of people who seem to think Tywin controlling his children is acceptable is frightening me. Being controlling is bad people! 

[Dofs]

53 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Giving a child money (as a rich person) is....just normal. That's what rich people do. I would actually argue it's bad parenting, and leads to entitled children. The number of rich children I knew (I'm old) who just got to travel around and do as they wanted...is..all of them. Again, it's not a good sign of good parenting. Even if you think it's  a fine thing to do...it's still just normal, not good parenting. All rich people do it. 

Again, being controlling...is bad. If your parent, or your spouse, or some other person is controlling what you do folks, it's not healthy. The amoutn of people who seem to think Tywin controlling his children is acceptable is frightening me. Being controlling is bad people! 

I am not arguing about whether Tywin is a good parent or not, I am questioning your statement:

"Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do"

Tyrion can't as an adult be travelling around and do what he wants with unlimited money and struggle with the fact that he can't be an adult and do as he pleases at the same time.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

23 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I am not arguing about whether Tywin is a good parent or not, I am questioning your statement:

"Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do"

Tyrion can't as an adult be travelling around and do what he wants with unlimited money and struggle with the fact that he can't be an adult and do as he pleases at the same time.

Lol bro. Rich children travel around on their parents dime. It’s common. Tyrion actially cannot. He wants to travel the free cities and Tywin refuses. Also I said specifically ACoK not AGoT (and said it was tbe Shae plot specifally)for the plot that revolved around Tyrion having to act like a sneaky teenager. 

“Most of Tyrion's plot in ACoK revolves around hiding Shae, ” - Me. It seems you have purposely misquoted me. Strawmen are especially easy when you just lie about what another person said. 

Again, a parent giving things to children..and then controlling them, is still a controlling parent. I think it would be easier to look at this through a spouse position (after all Tyrion is an adult, but everyone is kind of acting like Tywin and Tyrion’s relationship should remain in the child phase). Imagine if a man had a stay at home wife. That stay at home wife then wanted to go meet her friends and that husband said she could not. Is that behavior abusive even if that husband also gave that wife money to travel with her sister and mom? (hint : yes, it’s abusive.! duh). Nobles get money from their parents. They don’t have jobs. I often get accused of modern political bends, I think y’all who think Tyrion should just be grateful for Tywin giving Tyrion money are guilty if this. It’s how it works. Noble children get money and positions from their parents. It is normal expected part of Westerosi culture. This isn’t the modern day where Tyrion can go out and get a job. Jobs are exclusively gained through connections in the upper echelons of Westerosi culture. And although most parents can be guilty of being controlling sometimes, Tywin is absolutely controlling in an abusive unhealthy way to all three of his children. He used this same logic by giving Jaime a present and then being like : I gave you a present, now do what I want. Again, imagine this if it was a spousal situation.Hey, I bought you dinner honey, now have sex with me whether you want to or not. Spouse : No. Other spouse : Let’s get a divorce. (Tywin says Jaime is no longer his son in this situation). This would be a clear cut example of abuse. Please people : Money/gifts does not give anyone the right to control your behavior. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[StarkTullies]

On 10/31/2023 at 7:22 PM, boltons are sick said:

I was wondering in which morality category would you place these 5 members of the Lannister family Tywin, Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime and Joffrey

I don't believe in grouping people in specific categories of "absolute this or that", but ranking the Lannisters from the best to worst, I would say: Jaime > Tyrion > Joffrey > Tywin/Cersei

I don't think Jaime is a good guy, but he is better than the others.  At the start of the story, Tyrion was the best... but Tyrion has gotten worse while Jaime has gotten better.  The worst thing Jaime has done in the course of this story was attempt to murder a 7-year-old boy (which of course is plenty bad), and I agree with Jaime critics that a lot of his "redemption arc" is self-serving.  His intention to return Sansa home was more about a "joke" of proving everyone wrong than actually doing the right thing.  But after his hand was cut off and he started thinking of Brienne as "Brienne" rather than "the wench", he is clearly improving.  His acts in the Riverlands were good deeds, and Cersei was always the toxic presence in his life.  Turning against her, he started to realize how vile he was too (though he might not have articulated those specific thoughts), and I expect he will continue to become a better person after reuniting with Brienne (assuming they survive their meeting with Stoneheart).

Tyrion was never a good guy, but he did enough semi-decent things in the beginning of the story to temporarily trick us into thinking he's a good guy: befriending Jon, treating Bran kindly after his fall, etc.  He supports his evil family, but generally he tries to limit the damage they cause (for pragmatic reasons more than altruistic ones).  He kept Kings Landing under the best order he could while serving as Hand and was a genuinely good leader.  I turned against him when he wanted revenge against all of the Vale due to Lysa Arryn's actions, and I hated him when he celebrated over the death of Masha Heddle.  He murdered Symon, Shae, and Tywin... and after he fled Kings Landing his motivations were all about revenge and petty spite.  He tried (and probably succeeded) in starting a civil war between Aegon and Dany just because he could.  He's going downhill fast, and unless he has a change of heart, I suspect he will be much lower on this list by the end.

Joffrey is a monster, obviously.  If he lived to be an adult, he might have been an even worse monster.  But when he died, he was nothing but a spoiled bratty kid with too much power because his deplorable mother conspired to put a crown on his unworthy head.  His worst acts were executing Ned (which ultimately, many other kings would have done with the information: Cersei knew the truth, but Joffrey did not), and his general sadistic nature.  I think Joffrey is ranked a worse monster than he actually is because people are biased by the show: but on the show some of Cersei's worst acts were transferred to Joffrey to make her look better and him look worse.

Tywin is the most evil major character in the first 3 books, and Cersei is the most evil major character in the 4th book.  As someone else said, being better at being evil (Tywin) doesn't make him more evil.  Tywin is more competent in his evil ways, and wise enough to know when to play nice for pragmatic purposes.  Cersei doesn't know when to turn it off.  There are more deaths on Tywin's hands than Cersei's simply because he had more power to inflict more deaths, but Cersei is full-blown evil with not one redeeming quality.  The difference between Cersei and Tywin is that she is POV and Tywin is not.  I hated Cersei more after seeing how vile her thoughts were... and I do not know if I would have hated Tywin more or less if we saw the inner workings of his mind.  That's why I can't rank one as worse than the other, but they are definitely two of the worst characters in the series.

Edited November 5, 2023 by StarkTullies

[sifth]

I've had the Lannisters on my mind a lot as of late, but mostly because I started watching The Fall of House Usher and the characters on that show remind me of the Lannisters, lol

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

His worst acts were executing Ned (which ultimately, many other kings would have done with the information: Cersei knew the truth, but Joffrey did not)

I never once have thought about this somehow. Joffrey doesn't know he is not Robert's son. Joffrey doesn't know Eddard's confession isn't absolutely the real truth of the matter. From Joffrey's point of view, Eddard wanted to killl him and steal his throne. Woah, I'm feeling some sort of weird reality flip. It doesn't make anything Joffrey does okay....but it could explain why he hates Sansa so much. He projects his own insecurities caused by her father  (nad his own parents) onto her. He didn't just choose to be sadistic to Sansa randomly, he is sadistic to Sansa because Sansa's father, from his point of view, wanted him dead. And I would guess Joffrey also believes his own father didn't believe he was worthy to be King (Eddard's best friend). 

[boltons are sick]

2 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Joffrey is a monster, obviously.  If he lived to be an adult, he might have been an even worse monster.  But when he died, he was nothing but a spoiled bratty kid with too much power because his deplorable mother conspired to put a crown on his unworthy head.  His worst acts were executing Ned (which ultimately, many other kings would have done with the information: Cersei knew the truth, but Joffrey did not), and his general sadistic nature.  I think Joffrey is ranked a worse monster than he actually is because people are biased by the show: but on the show some of Cersei's worst acts were transferred to Joffrey to make her look better and him look worse.

This is Joffrey's Complete Monster entry on TV Tropes:

• King Joffrey I Baratheon of King's Landing, despite his young age, stands out as one of the vilest characters in the series. While always shown to have a darker side, Joffrey finally crosses the line when he has Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark executed, ensuring that the war with the Northerners would never reach a peaceful conclusion. Joffrey not only does this in front of Ned's daughter, Sansa, Joffrey's own fiancée, he then forces her to look at the decapitated heads of her father and household afterwards. This is followed by a long period of Domestic Abuse during which Joffrey has her regularly beaten by his Kingsguard and threatens to rape her even after she marries his uncle, Tyrion Lannister. As king, Joffrey revels in his power over life and death, and his reign is filled with all manner of pointless cruelties, his crimes including: having a minstrel whose song offended him choose between losing his fingers or his tongue; attempting to have a drunken knight drowned in a cask of wine; firing on starving peasants with his crossbow; ordering his bodyguard to cut through a crowd of peasants to get at one of them who threw manure at him; nailing antlers to the heads of sympathizers to his uncle and rival for the Iron Throne, Stannis, and firing them from trebuchets as entertainment during the Battle of the Blackwater; and attempting to convince his grandfather to execute everyone who fought against him, regardless of whether or not they surrendered. A budding psychopath who believes being the king gives him the right to do whatever he likes, Joffrey's sadism is so great that he is noted to be well on his way to surpassing his predecessor as the next Mad King of the Seven Kingdoms.

So, basically, aside from executing Ned, he also kills all of his men and then forces Sansa to look at their heads, regularly has Sansa beaten and even says he is going to rape her because he is the King, forces a minstrel to choose between losing his fingers or his tongue, tries to have a drunken knight drowned in a cask of wine and only stops when Sansa lies to him that killing a man on his namesday brings bad luck, fires at a crowd of starving peasants with his crossbow, killing several of them and telling the survivors that they can eat the dead, orders the Hound to slaughter his way through a crowd of peasants to reach someone who threw manore at him, tortures Stannis sympathizers by nailing antlers to their heads and firing them from trebuchets and tries to convince Tywin Lannister to execute everyone in the Riverlands who fought against him even if they are willing to bend the knee to him.