What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[sifth]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Cersei's rapist was also her husband cum king. It would grant her some political defense if she has at least one child that looks like Robert in an era when women not only have a high risk of dying in childbirth, but also cheating on your king is high treason and punishable by death.

Sometimes the Lannisters get through so much sh-t they seem to have plot armor.

While true, Cersei was also sleeping with her brother, while married. Also I was under the impression that Robert and Cersei never had sex together. Didn't Cersei mention that she had other tricks to pleasure Robert, while she was talking to Ned in the first book.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Asking someone to have empathy is not an attack. I guess I said your take lacked empathy. I don't see that as an attack, because it clearly does. You have no empathy for Cersei's reasoning right? If I am wrong, say so. If I am wrong, I guess I slandered you, but all your words imply I am right..therefore I just made a truthful statement about your lack of empathy for Cersei's point of view. 

I also lack any empty towards her. She's a horrible person and the worst mother in the series. Ohh and evil as well, I can't forget that part, lol

[SeanF]

One can always find a reason to maximise cruelty in war -but some leaders practise some restraint.

Stannis’ men burn villages in the Godswood, and would have sacked the capital, had they taken it, but Stannis does treat prisoners quite humanely, and rejects the arguments for attacking Claw Island.

Dany does set limits for the Unsullied (no women or girls, or boys under 12) and punished rapists.

There’s no reason to believe that Ned matched Tywin’s level of cruelty, although there was brutality in capturing Pyke.

Even Robb, whose soldiers were brutal, was not attempting to maximise cruelty, IMHO.  We never hear him give orders to set an entire region ablaze, nor to use rape as a terror tactic - unlike Tywin or Kevan.

It’s a brutal world, and every leader has innocent blood on their hands, but Tywin was the worst.  He sacked a city that admitted him peacefully, orders rape, murders children without a qualm, and inflicts creepy sexualised punishments.

Edited November 2, 2023 by SeanF

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

While true, Cersei was also sleeping with her brother, while married. Also I was under the impression that Robert and Cersei never had sex together. Didn't Cersei mention that she had other tricks to pleasure Robert, while she was talking to Ned in the first book.

In both AGoT and AFfC she mentions that there were always nights she was unable to stop him from “claiming his rights” and I think mention using..moon tea (i cant remember the name). 

[KingAerys_II]

That's why I consider not shocking Daenerys order to nail the Maesters. 

Everyone uses torture to gain informations in Asoiaf, Stannis men do it in Dragonstone, house Manderly has dungeons and Tywin uses terror (murder and mass rape) to keep his power. 

The arguments about "clues of Daenerys madness" have no sense

 

 

 

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

That's why I consider not shocking Daenerys order to nail the Maesters. 

Everyone uses torture to gain informations in Asoiaf, Stannis men do it in Dragonstone, house Manderly has dungeons and Tywin uses terror (murder and mass rape) to keep his power. 

The arguments about "clues of Daenerys madness" have no sense

 

 

 

It was a harsh punishment, but the deaths of a bunch of human traffickers rest more easily with me than do the deaths of small folk in WOT5K.  The moral culpability of a typical Great Master far exceeds the moral culpability of a typical Riverlands peasant farmer.

[sifth]

25 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

In both AGoT and AFfC she mentions that there were always nights she was unable to stop him from “claiming his rights” and I think mention using..moon tea (i cant remember the name). 

I don't remember any of this. I just remember Cersei talked about Robert cumming on her belly at times and how she was very happy that she got to squish Robert's potential children.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Things being legal (ie marital rape) I doubt changes how one feels about the rape. Fun fact, marital rape was punished for the first time in modern Korean history just 10 years ago. I doubt the women being raped 12 years ago felt differently then the women being raped today. Also, I looked up the Us laws, and marital rape was only made illegal in 1993, on other words, in my lifetime. The concept that it is some ancient custom that has been outlawed for hundreds of years is just wrong. The idea that it being legal made women okay with it, is also wrong. 

I an not suggesting you think this by the way, merely pointing out that rape is wrong regardless of its legal status, and people being raped aren’t probably going to feel differently about it depending on its legality. 

I wasn't talking about marital rape, I was talking about why Jaime did things for love and nearly killed Bran.

Because the queen and a KG sleeping together is double high treason. I wonder how Robert would judge if Bran passes on the info via Ned?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Cersei's rapist was also her husband cum king. It would grant her some political defense if she has at least one child that looks like Robert

I was responding to this part. 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Sometimes the Lannisters get through so much sh-t they seem to have plot armor.

Also I thought about this one, and I think it's because they are the only ones who are doing such evil things. Eddard vaguely understands they are doing bad things, but everyone else just assumes no one would be doing the bad things they are doing. (Maybe characters like Varys or Petyr Baelish know, but it benefits them to not tell). I mean.....I am always shocked in real life how a lot of people will blindly trust people who are obviously playing them, lying to them, cheating on them, etc...and I think it's just, a lot of people assume the best of people (which almost seems like a good thing). I don't know. For sure Robert would rather just say yes to anything Cersei says so he doesn't have to deal with it. I have no clue what Jon Arryn was doing all those years though, lol. 

[Hugorfonics]

20 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes. He is selfish and self serving. In ADwD, he rapes at least one slave woman (possibly two, as he threatens to rape and murder another slave woman in Illyrio's estate). He purposely messes up Aegon and Jon Connington's plans...for....reasons? Self serving reasons certainly. 

Through ASoS, I would put Tyrion down as chaotic neutral. But the books didn't end there, another book happened...and Tyrion was essentially selfish throughout the book. His own thoughts are often quite dark, and apathetic toward both his own life, but also the lives of others. Now, when Penny shows up, I began to have hope that he would even out again...but I'd say that has yet to be seen. Anyone who commits multiple rapes moves toward evil in my book though. 

Okay, here is a question. Why do you think Lancel is evil? Because I have a feeling it's for very similar reasons to why I think Kevan is. But, I'll hear you out before I decide how you can possibly think Lancel is more evil than his father. 

But your ignoring all the good he did in book 5 while highlighting the darker areas. Dany crucified 163 people, where is that in the chaos chain? Jon abducted a child, banished it's mother and all for kindling. Bran violats Hordor, Arya turns into frank castle.

They're all chaotic and evil?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I don't remember any of this. I just remember Cersei talked about Robert cumming on her belly at times and how she was very happy that she got to squish Robert's potential children.

"the way that Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with with hand or mouth.

Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them.............

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." .........

He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely , though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness." 

Edit : By the way, anyone who doesn't think Robert raped Cersei, please reread this passage. I think this is as spot on as a description can be of marital rape/date rape. This is what most rape looks like folks. 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But your ignoring all the good he did in book 5 while highlighting the darker areas. Dany crucified 163 people, where is that in the chaos chain? Jon abducted a child, banished it's mother and all for kindling. Bran violats Hordor, Arya turns into frank castle.

They're all chaotic and evil?

Nope. Dany carried out justice as a leader of a new state. She also felt guilt for doing it. However, she was doing redemptive justice (that many in this forum are all about). Jon was saving a child from death. Granted, I didn't like that he gave Gilly no choice, but his intentions were good. Bran violating Hodor is 100% wrong, and a sign of going down a dark path...however, he is a child, and I'm not sure he realizes how wrong what he is doing is. I've already stated I think Arya is gray due to her darker choices, and that she has been continuously getting darker throughout the series, however most of her actions are done for vengeance/justice of wrongdoings that the other characters did (mostly directly to her or someone she loved). 

Tyrion raped a woman. Did that woman do something to him like Daenerys's 163 slavers who had recently indeed murdered the exact same amount of slaves? Did she rape Tyrion first? If he raped that woman, was she otherwise going to be burned at the stake for merely existing? Is Tyrion a child who doesn't know better like Bran? Was Tyrion enacting some sort of vengeance (as most of Arya's murders actuallly are vengeful) for something she had done to him? No, he just didn't care about her as a person, so he raped her. That's evil. Period. And I said Tyrion was in between chaotic evil and chaotic neutral. My point is his...actions are too selfish and too dark to call him neutral anymore. Sorry, not sorry, he is a selfish prick. 

Honestly, your examples only solidify how selfish Tyrion's actions are in comparison. Each of the actions you listed (except Bran's control of Hodor) was fundamentally motivated by either justice or trying to do the right thing. Even Bran's actions, he controlled Hodor mostly (from my memory) in order to protect himself and his friends (although he becomes worse and worse the more times he does this). Raping a woman...has 0 other implications. It's just incredibly selfish. Your only good example is the Hodor one, and I think we are meant to see Bran's actions as bad and misguided. 

Also, please list Tyrion's non-selfish good deeds in book 5 that weren't motivated by guilt. 

Oh, and my opinion of those characters you mentioned : 

Jon Snow - Neutral Good
Daenerys Targaryen - Neutral Good
Bran Stark - True Neutral maybe
Arya Stark - Chaotic Neutral (Tyrion can return here by the way. I hope he does)

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Nope. Dany carried out justice as a leader of a new state. She also felt guilt for doing it. However, she was doing redemptive justice (that many in this forum are all about). Jon was saving a child from death. Granted, I didn't like that he gave Gilly no choice, but his intentions were good. Bran violating Hodor is 100% wrong, and a sign of going down a dark path...however, he is a child, and I'm not sure he realizes how wrong what he is doing is. I've already stated I think Arya is gray due to her darker choices, and that she has been continuously getting darker throughout the series, however most of her actions are done for vengeance/justice of wrongdoings that the other characters did (mostly directly to her or someone she loved). 

Tyrion raped a woman. Did that woman do something to him like Daenerys's 163 slavers who had recently indeed murdered the exact same amount of slaves? Did she rape Tyrion first? If he raped that woman, was she otherwise going to be burned at the stake for merely existing? Is Tyrion a child who doesn't know better like Bran? Was Tyrion enacting some sort of vengeance (as most of Arya's murders actuallly are vengeful) for something she had done to him? No, he just didn't care about her as a person, so he raped her. That's evil. Period. And I said Tyrion was in between chaotic evil and chaotic neutral. My point is his...actions are too selfish and too dark to call him neutral anymore. Sorry, not sorry, he is a selfish prick. 

Honestly, your examples only solidify how selfish Tyrion's actions are in comparison. Each of the actions you listed (except Bran's control of Hodor) was fundamentally motivated by either justice or trying to do the right thing. Even Bran's actions, he controlled Hodor mostly (from my memory) in order to protect himself and his friends (although he becomes worse and worse the more times he does this). Raping a woman...has 0 other implications. It's just incredibly selfish. Your only good example is the Hodor one, and I think we are meant to see Bran's actions as bad and misguided. 

Also, please list Tyrion's non-selfish good deeds in book 5 that weren't motivated by guilt. 

I'm not trying to go argue with your justifications, if you think anything above is fine in any situation then we're at an impasse. 

 

He saved Aegon, Penny and Jorah. With last two being is wannabee assassin and jailor, I can't imagine any other character doing that. Maybe Sansa.

[KingAerys_II]

Daenerys chaotic good

Arya chaotic good

Jon lawful good

Stannis lawful good 

Renly lawful good

Robb lawful good

Bran chaotic good

Sansa neutral good 

Catelyn lawful good

Lady Stoneheart chaotic evil

Doran lawful good 

Arianne chaotic good

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

I also lack any empty towards her. She's a horrible person and the worst mother in the series. Ohh and evil as well, I can't forget that part, lol

I can understand not having empathy toward an evil person. There are certainly those I have trouble with having empathy towards (or outright cannot). However, specifically here I am having empathy for someone who was raped. I am having empathy for the desire not to raise the child of someone you hate. But even if you don't have empathy for her,...I would at least think you could understand she didn't do it for "petty pride" or "pure stupidity". 

"aborting Robert's kid actually lets her closer to the prophecy and is also made by pure stupidity and petty pride." - this is what I was actually responding to from Arthur Perez. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He saved Aegon, Penny and Jorah. With last two being is wannabee assassin and jailor, I can't imagine any other character doing that. Maybe Sansa.

He does save those people. I agree, he is heroic in those actions. It is a good sign that he still has good in his heart. 

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'm not trying to go argue with your justifications, if you think anything above is fine in any situation then we're at an impasse. 

Lol, I literally didn't justify any of those things. Jesus man. Strawman argument. I compared them to Tyrion's action of rape. That is what we are doing. I guess I justified not putting them in "evil" alignment, but I did not justify the actions. Don't strawman me dude. It's pointless, and shows a lack of attempt to understand the person you are talking to. I have written repeatedly about thinking doing bad things are bad, and we shouldn't excuse them, and I am not excusing them. I think Jon taking the baby from Gilly was wrong. It should have been Gilly's choice. I think Daenerys hanging up the 163 slavers was redemptive justice (which I have spent literally so long saying I'm against in this forum), and I've stated why Arya's actions are wrong in whole long threads. Just here, I call Bran's actions of Hodor wrong repeatedly. Like, come on man. Seriously? You really stretched it this far cause you mad I called your boy Chaotic evil? 

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Like, come on man. Seriously? You really stretched it this far cause you mad I called your boy Chaotic evil? 

Yes. Seriously.  He's not "chatoicly evil" for having rough sex with a prostitute. 

It's an extremely uncomfortable scene, no doubt. It's not the same as Bran mind raping Hodor.

If your against redemptive justice then shouldn't Dany belong in the "chaoticly evil" category?

 

Imo this is all silly and grouping  characters in the bland world of warcraft fashion is exactly what GRRM does not want happening.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

Lannisters ranked by T Swift songs:

• Tywin: Bad Blood
• Cersei: Look What You Made Me Do
• Jaime: Cruel Summer (or We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together)
• Tyrion: Anti-Hero

[sifth]

56 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

"the way that Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with with hand or mouth.

Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them.............

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." .........

He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely , though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness." 

Edit : By the way, anyone who doesn't think Robert raped Cersei, please reread this passage. I think this is as spot on as a description can be of marital rape/date rape. This is what most rape looks like folks. 

 

The thing is Cersei lies and even to herself. In her own mind Joff was a kind and noble boy and not the monster we all love to hate. Hurting the Blue Bard, was a just act for THE GREATER GOOD. Kevan is a weak and stupid man. So I have a hard time taking anything she says or thinks, with any form of honesty. 
 

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes. Seriously.  He's not "chatoicly evil" for having rough sex with a prostitute. 

It's an extremely uncomfortable scene, no doubt. It's not the same as Bran mind raping Hodor.

If your against redemptive justice then shouldn't Dany belong in the "chaoticly evil" category?

 

Imo this is all silly and grouping  characters in the bland world of warcraft fashion is exactly what GRRM does not want happening.

He raped a prostitute. He did not have rough sex with her. She did not want to have sex with him, and then he had sex with her. That's rape. Rape defintion below for you : 

Rape is a type of sexual assault involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without their consent.

That is what Tyrion did. Spot for spot. It's actually extremely similar to what Bran did to Hodor. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall