What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[sifth]

34 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I never once have thought about this somehow. Joffrey doesn't know he is not Robert's son. Joffrey doesn't know Eddard's confession isn't absolutely the real truth of the matter. From Joffrey's point of view, Eddard wanted to killl him and steal his throne. Woah, I'm feeling some sort of weird reality flip. It doesn't make anything Joffrey does okay....but it could explain why he hates Sansa so much. He projects his own insecurities caused by her father  (nad his own parents) onto her. He didn't just choose to be sadistic to Sansa randomly, he is sadistic to Sansa because Sansa's father, from his point of view, wanted him dead. And I would guess Joffrey also believes his own father didn't believe he was worthy to be King (Eddard's best friend). 

Yea, I don't believe that for a second. Joff killed Ned because he knew it would hurt Sansa, it's as simple as that. You don't promise to spare someones life, just to pull the rug out from under them at the last minute, unless you're a special type of evil in my book. That doesn't even take into account that he takes Sansa to look at her fathers head after the fact and later on wants Robb's head sent to him, just so Sansa can kiss it.

Edited November 5, 2023 by sifth

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

40 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, I don't believe that for a second. Joff killed Ned because he knew it would hurt Sansa, it's as simple as that. You don't promise to spare someones life, just to pull the rug out from under them at the last minute, unless you're a special type of evil in my book. That doesn't even take into account that he takes Sansa to look at her fathers head after the fact and later on wants Robb's head sent to him, just so Sansa can kiss it.

Yes, he wanted to torture Sansa. Sometimes my man you are too black and white. There is a lot of gray in both these books, and real life. It is possible for Joffrey to be a horrible sadist...and also have reasons for it rather than it being random. Admitting those reasons exist does not mean we are approving of the actions. Yes, Joffrey chose to torture Sansa, I would guess because he is a fundamentally insecure little boy (who also has...issues, some personality disorder probably. let's not going into that again)...but I wouldn't be surprised if he is projecting his fear of not being good enough onto Sansa specifically (bullies pick people who are weaker than them, and have little power) because she is Eddard's daughter. 

Think of it like we are detectives or something. When they try to find out what someone's motive is, we aren't approving of their actions. In that case, I guess no detective/court of law could ever prosecute anyone ever if they found out why the person was doing something (which is of course, not the case). And yes, I do think it is interesting to imagine that Joffrey actually had a reason to choose Sansa as his victim rather than it being random (Sansa is just as innocent of a victim in either case). 

[Dofs]

On 11/4/2023 at 10:25 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Lol bro. Rich children travel around on their parents dime. It’s common. Tyrion actially cannot. He wants to travel the free cities and Tywin refuses. 

We know he couldn't go to Free Cities when he was a kid. Can't he now? I am not so sure. Though I might be misremembering something here.

On 11/4/2023 at 10:25 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also I said specifically ACoK not AGoT (and said it was tbe Shae plot specifally)for the plot that revolved around Tyrion having to act like a sneaky teenager. 

“Most of Tyrion's plot in ACoK revolves around hiding Shae, ” - Me. It seems you have purposely misquoted me. Strawmen are especially easy when you just lie about what another person said. 

Then why the hell did you write this later?

"Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do"

I did not misquote you, that's literally your quote, go on and double check yourself. If this is an extreme exaggeration on your part, then it's not my problem for misunderstanding you. 

On 11/4/2023 at 10:25 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, a parent giving things to children..and then controlling them, is still a controlling parent. I think it would be easier to look at this through a spouse position (after all Tyrion is an adult, but everyone is kind of acting like Tywin and Tyrion’s relationship should remain in the child phase). Imagine if a man had a stay at home wife. That stay at home wife then wanted to go meet her friends and that husband said she could not. Is that behavior abusive even if that husband also gave that wife money to travel with her sister and mom? (hint : yes, it’s abusive.! duh). Nobles get money from their parents. They don’t have jobs.

Tywin is a controlling parent, sure, but your metaphor here makes no sense given that Tyrion is not a stay at home wife, in fact he is not stay at home at all and can go wherever he wants whenever he wants. 

On 11/4/2023 at 10:25 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, imagine this if it was a spousal situation.Hey, I bought you dinner honey, now have sex with me whether you want to or not. Spouse : No. Other spouse : Let’s get a divorce.

Let's not bring sex in the conversation, please.

Going back to Tyrion, when he is in King's Landing, he is on a mission, he is doing a job with significant public implications. At that time Tywin isn't simply his controlling parent, he is his boss. And given the nature of Tyrion's mission, telling to not get a prostitute for his concubine is a legitimate demand. Tyrion has no problems with getting on with prostitutes in his spare time, but being an acting Hand under Tywin's own name wasn't that. So no, I don't believe that Tyrion's aCoK story had much to do with him trying to break free from his father's abuse, so to speak. Especially considering that Tyrion loved his position so much, he actually forgot that he was only doing it temporarily while Tywin was away.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Dofs

[Alester Florent]

Although it is complicated, Westerosi families do seem to operate on the basis that the head of the family - at least where they are a lord - has authority over other members, and this certainly applies in lordly families where the junior members of a lord's family are members of his household just as his servants and retainers are. Which makes sense because their lord is the local lawful authority, and also effectively their employer.

It is possible to leave one household and join another: the most common means of doing so would be through marriage (with the wife usually joining the husband's household), but for a knight to leave their ancestral home and take up service with another lord would also be reasonably common. Of course that's trading one master for another because their new head of household has just the same power as their previous one did. And I suspect it is considered virtuous in Westeros to obey one's father so far as possible even if you are now part of another household (indeed, Jaime tells us this is a standard commandment of the Faith, if I remember rightly).

Now, Cersei and Jaime do have the lawful capacity to act independently of Tywin, because they are both now part of Robert's household (later Joffrey's and Tommen's, which Cersei runs, making her functionally independent. The question of who becomes head of House Lannister following Tywin's death is a thorny one which hasn't been satisfactorily resolved in the books, but in any case Cersei is de facto head of House Baratheon of King's Landing until Tommen comes of age.) Tywin clearly supplies Jaime and Cersei (personally) with money and men and retains a great deal of personal influence over them, but although this is great to have they are not legally or practically dependent on him.

But Tyrion is. His position, wealth, etc. is all down to being a member of Tywin's household, and Tywin has authority over him as a result. Indeed, his membership of Tywin's household is his surest guarantee of personal safety, because it's understood that if a member of your household is abused then you are not only entitled but to an extent obliged to come to their aid.

Tyrion could still effectively declare independence from Tywin and try to go his own way. It is implied that's what his uncle Tygett did. But he knows that he doesn't have the resources to do so. He's not a lord or a landed knight, so he has no soruce of income or even a place to live. He has an entourage, of sorts, who may have some loyalty to him personally (Bronn and the clansmen) but they are all paid for with Tywin's money. Stripped of the protection and resources of his household, how long is Tyrion likely to last?

So Tywin is absolutely in a position to order Tyrion around, both in practice and probably legally as well. If Tywin tells Tyrion he can't do something or go somewhere, then those instructions are meant to be followed.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

We know he couldn't go to Free Cities when he was a kid. Can't he now? I am not so sure. Though I might be misremembering something here.

Then why the hell did you write this later?

"Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do"

I did not misquote you, that's literally your quote, go on and double check yourself. If this is an extreme exaggeration on your part, then it's not my problem for misunderstanding you. 

Tywin is a controlling parent, sure, but your metaphor here makes no sense given that Tyrion is not a stay at home wife, in fact he is not stay at home at all and can go wherever he wants whenever he wants. 

Let's not bring sex in the conversation, please.

Going back to Tyrion, when he is in King's Landing, he is on a mission, he is doing a job with significant public implications. At that time Tywin isn't simply his controlling parent, he is his boss. And given the nature of Tyrion's mission, telling to not get a prostitute for his concubine is a legitimate demand. Tyrion has no problems with getting on with prostitutes in his spare time, but being an acting Hand under Tywin's own name wasn't that. So no, I don't believe that Tyrion's aCoK story had much to do with him trying to break free from his father's abuse, so to speak. Especially considering that Tyrion loved his position so much, he actually forgot that he was only doing it temporarily while Tywin was away.

 

Prostitution is legal in Westeros. I don’t know how to tell you this : If your boss is telling you how to act and who you are allowed to fraternize with outside work : Quit that job. Again, that would also be absolutely illegal for your boss to do in most countries in the world. The more “points” you make, the more it seems you do not understand controlling others personal life is bad. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Although it is complicated, Westerosi families do seem to operate on the basis that the head of the family - at least where they are a lord - has authority over other members, and this certainly applies in lordly families where the junior members of a lord's family are members of his household just as his servants and retainers are. Which makes sense because their lord is the local lawful authority, and also effectively their employer.

It is possible to leave one household and join another: the most common means of doing so would be through marriage (with the wife usually joining the husband's household), but for a knight to leave their ancestral home and take up service with another lord would also be reasonably common. Of course that's trading one master for another because their new head of household has just the same power as their previous one did. And I suspect it is considered virtuous in Westeros to obey one's father so far as possible even if you are now part of another household (indeed, Jaime tells us this is a standard commandment of the Faith, if I remember rightly).

Now, Cersei and Jaime do have the lawful capacity to act independently of Tywin, because they are both now part of Robert's household (later Joffrey's and Tommen's, which Cersei runs, making her functionally independent. The question of who becomes head of House Lannister following Tywin's death is a thorny one which hasn't been satisfactorily resolved in the books, but in any case Cersei is de facto head of House Baratheon of King's Landing until Tommen comes of age.) Tywin clearly supplies Jaime and Cersei (personally) with money and men and retains a great deal of personal influence over them, but although this is great to have they are not legally or practically dependent on him.

But Tyrion is. His position, wealth, etc. is all down to being a member of Tywin's household, and Tywin has authority over him as a result. Indeed, his membership of Tywin's household is his surest guarantee of personal safety, because it's understood that if a member of your household is abused then you are not only entitled but to an extent obliged to come to their aid.

Tyrion could still effectively declare independence from Tywin and try to go his own way. It is implied that's what his uncle Tygett did. But he knows that he doesn't have the resources to do so. He's not a lord or a landed knight, so he has no soruce of income or even a place to live. He has an entourage, of sorts, who may have some loyalty to him personally (Bronn and the clansmen) but they are all paid for with Tywin's money. Stripped of the protection and resources of his household, how long is Tyrion likely to last?

So Tywin is absolutely in a position to order Tyrion around, both in practice and probably legally as well. If Tywin tells Tyrion he can't do something or go somewhere, then those instructions are meant to be followed.

Everything you said is true. And its bad. My father also had the ability to do that. Guess what, a counselor has told me repeatedly that what he did was wrong. A counselor has told him repeatedly that what he did was wrong. He has now apologized for how controlling of me he was because even HE recognizes it was bad. Saying : This person has legal control of you so its okay to tell you what to do in your personal time, is absolutely wild. Of course it’s not. Most people like Ser Brynden Tully, probably in part specifically because he refused that control. It absolutely sucks to have another human being control what you do or don’t do in your free time, and I want to be blunt : It’s morally (and legally in our modern world) wrong. 

Tyrion is an adult man, and who he chooses to sleep with is none of Tywin’s business. And it is wild that I have to have this obvious conversation with other adults who should already know this. 

[SaffronLady]

58 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

My father also had the ability to do that. Guess what, a counselor has told me repeatedly that what he did was wrong. A counselor has told him repeatedly that what he did was wrong. He has now apologized for how controlling of me he was because even HE recognizes it was bad. Saying : This person has legal control of you so its okay to tell you what to do in your personal time, is absolutely wild.

Anecdotal contemporary real-life situations clearly cannot be applied, without question, onto pseudo-medieval fantasy cases where the concept of paterfamilias runs strong. Yet you insist on doing so, just like in that other discussion about Brienne.

[Alester Florent]

I do think that it would help if we were able to discuss this sort of thing without bringing sex into it every time. Three reasons for this:

1) As per Craving Peaches's excellent thread a few months ago, I think for discussions like this to be worthwhile (pace our feelings on whether discussions as framed in the OP are worthwhile) we need to be reasonably clear as to which perspective we're looking at the morality of characters from. Sexual morality is probably the area where modern real life differs most from that of Westeros, and I think it's fair to ask whether by 21st-century standards any of the relationships in ASoIaF measure up. Yet these relationships are clearly all not the same. If we were to apply modern standards regarding violence (which seems to happen a lot less in these discussions, see (2) below) then likewise I think few if any characters emerge smelling of roses. I think we have to take Westerosi standards into account if we're going to get into comparative ethics, even if we don't like them.

2) Sex is a subject rather closer to home for most readers than many of the other themes in the story. Few readers (which is not to say none) have had their home pillaged or their family members tortured and murdered. I doubt many of us have direct experience with being burned alive or witnessing the birth of shadow assassins. But I'm sure most of us have sexual experiences we on some level regret, and it will be distressingly common for that to have been (and remain) very traumatic. As such this is an issue which is very likely to provoke strong feelings and differences of opinion. And there is also relatively little agreement as to where the acceptable line in some instances is, and while some people will think their "lived experience" entitles them to the final word others may feel that that very experience deprives said people of objectivity, and I think they both have a point. This not only affects the tone of the OOC discussion but the reading of the books. I have seen people say, for instance, that Daenerys raped Irri, a construction of that scene I think is very difficult to justify, but not impossible if you have sufficiently strong opinions about power dynamics, etc. This also makes it very difficult to actually discuss, because nobody knows quite where other people's triggers are.

3) While much more obvious in the show, I do think there is something inherently problematic about the way the series treats sex. GRRM is clearly trying to make a point but he doesn't always land it on the right side of the line and there are cogent arguments to be made that much of the books actually comprise part of the problem rather than a commentary. Particularly so since sex is an area which has seen significant cultural development and change over the ~30 years since GRRM started writing the books, and indeed in the ~12 years since the latest novel was published. It can often be very difficult to distinguish between what's a problem with a character and what's a problem with the books.

The result of this is that when sex gets brought into these discussions, it tends to act as a roadblock on making any kind of progress, or at worst a "gotcha" because any time someone makes an approximation of a point, you can go "but what about the sex?" and that's immediately an almost impossible bar for anyone to satisfactorily clear. I don't think that anyone is actually arguing in bad faith, but that is nevertheless the effect.

I would hope that it isn't controversial to say that certain acts that are portrayed or described in the books are indefensible: witness Ramsay with Jeyne and Theon, some of Tyrion's scenes, Gregor's whole career. Stuff that's wrong by any standard. And I think clearly intended as such. But next to that there is also a huge (while I'm reluctant to use the term) greyer area where characters may be acting ethically according to the standards of the society they live and were raised in, or where the context may lend itself to multiple interpretations, and so on. But while those things may be valuable to discuss in themselves, I think there is a tendency for this kind of thread to degenerate into an argument about which characters are more or less rapey and that makes it impossible to discuss anything else.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Dofs]

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Prostitution is legal in Westeros. I don’t know how to tell you this : If your boss is telling you how to act and who you are allowed to fraternize with outside work : Quit that job. Again, that would also be absolutely illegal for your boss to do in most countries in the world. The more “points” you make, the more it seems you do not understand controlling others personal life is bad. 

What we are talking about is the aSoIaF equivalent of a president, or a prime minister. And yes, even today going to hookers is strongly not recommended for such people at any time, be it during working hours or not.

About me not understanding something, for the record, you compared a position of essentially a president/prime minister with:

1) a stay at home wife

2) wife not wanting to have sex

3) a daily job you ought to quit if a boss gives you too many instructions for your spare time

Let's just say I think your perspective of Tyrion's situation in aCoK is just off.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Dofs

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, Dofs said:

What we are talking about is the aSoIaF equivalent of a president, or a prime minister. And yes, even today going to hookers is strongly not recommended for such people at any time, be it during working hours or not.

About me not understanding something, for the record, you compared a position of essentially a president/prime minister with:

1) a stay at home wife

2) wife not wanting to have sex

3) a daily job you ought to quit if a boss gives you too many instructions for your spare time

Let's just say I think your perspective of Tyrion's situation in aCoK is just off.

 

 

King Robert goes to prostitutes. Many/most Kings did. Are you even reading the books? Going to prostitutes in the modern day is frowned upon. It basically…isn’t in Westeros. Actually in the modern day, it really depends on your country. Example : In Korea, being caught smoking weed would be a much bigger controversy then going to prostitutes. In fact, I think that the vast majority of male presidential candidates probably have, and everyone knows it. I remember reading a study that like 23% of Korean men lost their virginity to prostitutes. Going to prostitutes is a common business activity. And again, Korea is MUCH less open about prostitution then Westeros is. Ao even in a country where it is a regular activity in the modern day, it still pales in comparison to how ordinary it is in Westeros. 

No one else except Tywin would care about Shae. Even Cersei only cares to use as leverage over Tyrion. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I do think that it would help if we were able to discuss this sort of thing without bringing sex into it every time. Three reasons for this:

1) As per Craving Peaches's excellent thread a few months ago, I think for discussions like this to be worthwhile (pace our feelings on whether discussions as framed in the OP are worthwhile) we need to be reasonably clear as to which perspective we're looking at the morality of characters from. Sexual morality is probably the area where modern real life differs most from that of Westeros, and I think it's fair to ask whether by 21st-century standards any of the relationships in ASoIaF measure up. Yet these relationships are clearly all not the same. If we were to apply modern standards regarding violence (which seems to happen a lot less in these discussions, see (2) below) then likewise I think few if any characters emerge smelling of roses. I think we have to take Westerosi standards into account if we're going to get into comparative ethics, even if we don't like them.

2) Sex is a subject rather closer to home for most readers than many of the other themes in the story. Few readers (which is not to say none) have had their home pillaged or their family members tortured and murdered. I doubt many of us have direct experience with being burned alive or witnessing the birth of shadow assassins. But I'm sure most of us have sexual experiences we on some level regret, and it will be distressingly common for that to have been (and remain) very traumatic. As such this is an issue which is very likely to provoke strong feelings and differences of opinion. And there is also relatively little agreement as to where the acceptable line in some instances is, and while some people will think their "lived experience" entitles them to the final word others may feel that that very experience deprives said people of objectivity, and I think they both have a point. This not only affects the tone of the OOC discussion but the reading of the books. I have seen people say, for instance, that Daenerys raped Irri, a construction of that scene I think is very difficult to justify, but not impossible if you have sufficiently strong opinions about power dynamics, etc. This also makes it very difficult to actually discuss, because nobody knows quite where other people's triggers are.

3) While much more obvious in the show, I do think there is something inherently problematic about the way the series treats sex. GRRM is clearly trying to make a point but he doesn't always land it on the right side of the line and there are cogent arguments to be made that much of the books actually comprise part of the problem rather than a commentary. Particularly so since sex is an area which has seen significant cultural development and change over the ~30 years since GRRM started writing the books, and indeed in the ~12 years since the latest novel was published. It can often be very difficult to distinguish between what's a problem with a character and what's a problem with the books.

The result of this is that when sex gets brought into these discussions, it tends to act as a roadblock on making any kind of progress, or at worst a "gotcha" because any time someone makes an approximation of a point, you can go "but what about the sex?" and that's immediately an almost impossible bar for anyone to satisfactorily clear. I don't think that anyone is actually arguing in bad faith, but that is nevertheless the effect.

I would hope that it isn't controversial to say that certain acts that are portrayed or described in the books are indefensible: witness Ramsay with Jeyne and Theon, some of Tyrion's scenes, Gregor's whole career. Stuff that's wrong by any standard. And I think clearly intended as such. But next to that there is also a huge (while I'm reluctant to use the term) greyer area where characters may be acting ethically according to the standards of the society they live and were raised in, or where the context may lend itself to multiple interpretations, and so on. But while those things may be valuable to discuss in themselves, I think there is a tendency for this kind of thread to degenerate into an argument about which characters are more or less rapey and that makes it impossible to discuss anything else.

What? My response to you had nothing to do with sex. If you mean earlier when I compared Tyrion to an abused wife, I guess, I took a different angle (talking about my relationship with my own father). So I went away from that point already. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:33 PM, SaffronLady said:

Anecdotal contemporary real-life situations clearly cannot be applied, without question, onto pseudo-medieval fantasy cases where the concept of paterfamilias runs strong. Yet you insist on doing so, just like in that other discussion about Brienne.

Other characters in book are not doing what Tywin does. They are not controlling and abusive to their children like Tywin is. In fact, he is te only character we’ve seen be so absolutely controlling of his family (even Cersei is less controlling). 

You understand my basic point is this : Being a controlling asshat is bad. Tywin is a controlling asshat. That’s bad. Honestly, I am done with this topic at this point. If ya’ll want to believe Tywin’s controlling behavior is perfectly fine, be my guest. I think the author disagrees with you, but hey, what does he matter.

You don’t want me to use non in world examples. Fine - Read comments people make about Cersei’s controlling behavior, then use it for Tywin. There are plenty of people willing to recognize that controlling behavior is wrong as long as it is Cersei doing it. (Hint : Cersei treats Tommen like Tywin treated Tyrion and probably Cersei herself)

Or don’t. I don’t need any examples. I know that Tywin’s controlling behavior is meant to be read as abusive. We are meant to read it as bad, and if y’all somehow missed that, it’s on you. Enjoy. 

[SaffronLady]

21 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Other characters in book are not doing what Tywin does. They are not controlling and abusive to their children like Tywin is. In fact, he is te only character we’ve seen be so absolutely controlling of his family (even Cersei is less controlling). 

You understand my basic point is this : Being a controlling asshat is bad. Tywin is a controlling asshat. That’s bad. Honestly, I am done with this topic at this point. If ya’ll want to believe Tywin’s controlling behavior is perfectly fine, be my guest. I think the author disagrees with you, but hey, what does he matter.

You don’t want me to use non in world examples. Fine - Read comments people make about Cersei’s controlling behavior, then use it for Tywin. There are plenty of people willing to recognize that controlling behavior is wrong as long as it is Cersei doing it. (Hint : Cersei treats Tommen like Tywin treated Tyrion and probably Cersei herself)

Or don’t. I don’t need any examples. I know that Tywin’s controlling behavior is meant to be read as abusive. We are meant to read it as bad, and if y’all somehow missed that, it’s on you. Enjoy. 

I can agree with your premise without agreeing with how you use your own life experiences to structure an argument to defend it. I don't like bringing real life so often into fantasy novels, which means discussions and theories that veer too close to my world. I know you tend to be of the opposite bent, and not only that you're even more of a bulldog than I am. But just for the sake of forum atmosphere, try to check your temper when people don't agree with you.

Edited November 7, 2023 by SaffronLady
Unless of course, it was my temper that was fired first

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I can agree with your premise without agreeing with how you use your own life experiences to structure an argument to defend it. I don't like bringing real life so often into fantasy novels, which means discussions and theories that veer too close to my world. I know you tend to be of the opposite bent, and not only that you're even more of a bulldog than I am. But just for the sake of forum atmosphere, try to check your temper when people don't agree with you.

GRRM is a modern person. His interpretation of a historical landscape...is jut that, his interpretation. I've read his books set in the modern day, set in the more recent past, and set in the future, and...you'd be surprised how much overlap there is in social norms, customs, and behaviors within those societies. I'm not blaming GRRM for this, it's expected. People write in the way they want to write. Most other authors also tend to have a specific kind of (or similar kinds of) societies they write about. Most modern English speaking authors are going to add a lot of modern Western sensibility type stuff to their books. A big example I can remember reading about was sexism. I could not tell you who the author was, but it was basically all about how the way GRRM writes sexism in ASOIAF is very modern, and much less medieval. Again, I am no expert, so ...don't like hold me to this, lol, but anyways, I think that is true of many parts of his tale. I think that ...ultimately he is modern, and using modern examples (or examples from other modern books/works of fiction) actually makes more sense in many cases than using medieval examples, because the truth is Westeros looks more like our modern world..than it does like the medieval world (because if we actually read from a medieval perspective, it would probably be more difficult to connect to the characters as the customs/norms would be....too far away from us). 

My point is GRRM wrote the rules for this world, a man raised in the United States, not medieval England. When he writes an abusive father-figure character...he is most likely drawing from his own experiences..not the experience of King Henry VIII. I relate to the work in that way, as well. As a modern person, with modern experiences. Yes, I also try to adjust based on the cultural expectations in the world...however, I do believe ...that GRRM wrote Tywin as an abusive controlling father. I don't think it's vague or up to interpretation and I don't understand why some are acting like it is. 

"But just for the sake of forum atmosphere, try to check your temper when people don't agree with you." I'm sorry if I came off too strong. But honestly, I do feel done with this topic, not because of anger, I just can't imagine anything else I can say that would convince people that Tywin is controlling if they aren't already convinced (or that it is controlling to tell your children who they can and cannot have sexual relationships with, particularly when the culture is perfectly fine with that person having that relationship with absolutely no, or at least minimal, social backlash). 

Edit : One little edit, since I said most authors write like GRRM, random shoutout : Ursula K Le Guin somehow writes weird spectacular societies that are just so odd and different from each other. Her father was an anthropologist, and I think she studied anthropology as well, which is how I think she is able to kind of take you to these vastly different societies. I remember one short story she wrote in particular, which was like a society of extreme introverts, and it was so freaking alien, yet somehow felt human, at the same time. It was a wild ride. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[the trees have eyes]

22 hours ago, Dofs said:

What we are talking about is the aSoIaF equivalent of a president, or a prime minister. And yes, even today going to hookers is strongly not recommended for such people at any time, be it during working hours or not.

The ghost of Silvio Berlusconi wants to know what all the fuss is about 

But, yes, Tyrion is neither King, nor head of House Lannister, nor even Hand of The King so to act like this against his father's express instruction while holding down a provisional position is unwise, even provocative.

52 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I just can't imagine anything else I can say that would convince people that Tywin is controlling if they aren't already convinced (or that it is controlling to tell your children who they can and cannot have sexual relationships with, particularly when the culture is perfectly fine with that person having that relationship with absolutely no, or at least minimal, social backlash). 

I don't think anyone disputes that Tywin is controlling.  But just as politicians today are image conscious and media savvy so The Great Houses of Westeros are very particular about their image and honour, particularly in public and at Court.  Tywin took a gamble on Tyrion keeping House Lannister's image and honour intact when he sent him to Court.  You can put this down to Tywin seeing how Tytos's liaison with a mistress eroded House Lannister's reputation and made Tytos himself a laughing stock with his bannermen as much as to Tyrion's earlier drunken marriage to a crofter's daughter.

A modernist take that Tyrion should be free to screw or marry whoever he wants to screw or marry simply doesn't fit the Westerosi system: marriages are arranged and liaisons are kept discreet to avoid reputational damage.  No one advocates for the Westerosi system but the characters in story should act in conjunction with the world's societal rules not our own.  Tywin,  as Head of the family appointed Hand of The King by the Queen Regent, telling his wayward younger son that he will delegate the Handship to him (while he fights the war) and not to take a prostitute he has taken up with to court is hardly damning stuff.  He empowers Tyron with High Office and basically tells him to look as well as act the part.

[the trees have eyes]

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Other characters in book are not doing what Tywin does. They are not controlling and abusive to their children like Tywin is. In fact, he is te only character we’ve seen be so absolutely controlling of his family (even Cersei is less controlling). 

Jaime was fostered by Lord Crakehall from 11/12? entirely in keeping with Westerosi norms.  He then joined the Kingsguard completely against his father's wishes so removing him from his father's orbit -  and depriving Tywin of his heir.

Cersei was married to the King of Westeros so removing her from her father's orbit.  When she manages to murder her husband Tywin attempts to reassert paternal control but as Cersei is Queen Regent she has a degree of latitude.  Tywin's death obviously occurs before any betrothal has even been arranged.

He's hardly Dad of the year by modern standards and he is a cold, proud, stern and unloving man but it's only towards Tyrion that he displays any emotional abuse.

I mean Randall Tarly chained Sam up in the dark for days when he said he wanted to be a maester and told him that nothing would please him more than to hunt him down like the pig he was but that his mother would be sad so he was going to send him off to the NW instead so it's not like Tywin has a monopoly on being pretty dreadful in order to protect his House's interests.

Tywin's a deeply unpleasant man but is he worse than Randall Tarly, Roose Bolton, Balon Greyjoy or Walder Frey in the parenting stakes?  Seems they're all much of a muchness.

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I do feel done with this topic

Why thank you. Then in good grace I will not "lol".

[KingAerys_II]

Lord Tywin uses his kids as pawns, he wanted Cersei to give birth to Tyrell children to secure the Reach and Tyrion to have kids from Sansa. 

He was disappointed by Jaime, who rebelled against his father. 

Tywin is bad, but unlike Cersei he considers very good the marriage between Tommen and Maergery, she is worse than the father

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tywin's a deeply unpleasant man but is he worse than Randall Tarly, Roose Bolton, Balon Greyjoy or Walder Frey in the parenting stakes?  Seems they're all much of a muchness.

Actually, I'd say being a parent/patriarch seems to be one of the things Walder is actually alright at. He looks after all his kids, and their kids, etc. including the bastards, and has raised a pretty decent heir in Stevron. Better or worse than Tywin? Debatable. But he doesn't seem to have persecuted any of his kids in the way Tywin did Tyrion, and there remains that speculation as to whether Tywin has bastard children of his own who he has cut loose (that Marei is his is a moderately popular fan theory, I think).

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tywin's a deeply unpleasant man but is he worse than Randall Tarly, Roose Bolton, Balon Greyjoy or Walder Frey in the parenting stakes?  Seems they're all much of a muchness.

Randall Tarly is the worse. He threatens to murder his own child. However, if I was to say consistently controlling, Tywin is worse. What makes Randyll worse is active physical and emotional abuse on a level that Tywin never does. However, then again, Randyll acted very controlling toward Brienne…who isn’t even his child or someone he has any legal right ti attempt to control. Hmmm. Maybe you have a point with Randyll Tarly. 

Roose Bolton is shockingly non-controlling. Ramsay is literally running wild doing things that is gonna make every single soul in the North hate the Boltons, and Roose is like, “Just be quieter about it.” lol. Horrible example. Now don’t get me wrong, Roose is also an actively abusive father, but controlling? 

Balon Greyjoy is super controlling to Theon and also abusive. I would argue Tywin is more controlling simply because of amount. We only got to see a pretty short interaction between Theon and his father. Apso the abuse ssems specific to Theon and not Balon’s other children, but we don’t really know. 

As @Alester Florent said, Walder Frey seems…okay as a parent maybe. A horrible human being, but he at least tries to protect his like 100 children and grandchildren. 

But also, I want to make this point. If your point is : “See Tywin is kind of normal in Westeros?” and then you mention, lets see : A war criminal (Walder Frey) and one of the most universally hated characters in fiction; a very clear example of an abusive father that people IN UNIVERSE react to as extremely abusive (Randyll Tarly), another obvious abuser and just universal idiot who is widely seen as abusive toward Theon in the fandom (Balon), and finally another universaly reviled character often on the top lists of “worse people in these books” (Roose); I think you are not making the point you think you are making. Yes, I agree I guess. Roose Bolton, Randyll Tarly, and Balon Greyjoy are also horrible abusive fathers. I think they are less contolling then Tywin (except maybe Randyll), but honestly we are just splitting hairs. They are also horrible, lol (and Walder Frey is a horrible horrible human being, too).