What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I think what is happening in this thread is something that used to be common in general Tywin apologia, which is the normalizing of horrible actions because as an audience we are privy to some of the most horrible wartime atrocities (and most horrible people) in Westeros. I am glad that for the most part, it seems like general apologia has died down. There is an understanding thst Tywin is a horrible person doing horrible things that is generally accepted in the fandom these days.

However, now in this thread, we are seeing the same kind of logic, but applied specifically to parenting. Listen, just like because other peoole also do horrible war crimes that does not excuse Tywin’s war crimes, the same thing, but for parenting. When y’all choose other very obviously horrible parents and then use that as examples for why Tywin ISN’T abusive, it boggles my mind.

Hmm everyone hates comparing to the modern day (I suspect because they want to escape from real life or pretend that Westeros and all its horribleness is very far away from rwal life)…but guys. Do you know abusibe parents still exist today? And that the existence of commonplace controlling or abusive parents doesnt mean “abusive parenting is normalnand so therefore it is jot abusive” lol. The reason we consider abusive parenting bad today isnt because it isnt common. More importantluy - People in Westeros RECOGNIZE that abusive parenting is abusive too. When Tyrion describes the horrible things Tywin does, people are not lik “suck it up bro” they say something like “id have killed that dude” (which tyrion goes on to do). We are mwant, as an audience, to read Tywin as abusive toward Tyrion (and Id argue Cersei and Jaime as well). To be blunt, I think if you are reading Tywin as not abusive, you are reading the book wrong. 

[Craving Peaches]

Tywin's complete failure as a parent is made very clear by the fact that one of his sons kills him after his other son helps him escape, and Cersei models herself after Tywin.

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin's complete failure as a parent is made very clear by the fact that one of his sons kills him after his other son helps him escape, and Cersei models herself after Tywin.

But Cersei, remember, is only Inconsistently Moderately Near Impure Evil. Practically a Saint.

[Dofs]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:36 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

King Robert goes to prostitutes. Many/most Kings did. Are you even reading the books? Going to prostitutes in the modern day is frowned upon. It basically…isn’t in Westeros. Actually in the modern day, it really depends on your country. Example : In Korea, being caught smoking weed would be a much bigger controversy then going to prostitutes. In fact, I think that the vast majority of male presidential candidates probably have, and everyone knows it. I remember reading a study that like 23% of Korean men lost their virginity to prostitutes. Going to prostitutes is a common business activity. And again, Korea is MUCH less open about prostitution then Westeros is. Ao even in a country where it is a regular activity in the modern day, it still pales in comparison to how ordinary it is in Westeros. 

No one else except Tywin would care about Shae. Even Cersei only cares to use as leverage over Tyrion. 

I completely disagree with you about how going to prostitutes looks like in Westeros. It definitely is frowned upon in Westeros. One Hand built an entire tunnel to a brothel so that nobody would see him going there, Stannis flat out banned brothels on his island, you also don't see people like Ned using prostitutes too. So yes, indeed "are you even reading the books" is a good question. I mean, why do you think Tywin banned Tyrion from bringing Shae to court, for the lulz? It's exactly because that would look badly for the reputation of House Lannister.

Also, no one that I have seen in this thread is claiming that Tywin isn't abusive towards Tyrion. The constant belittling of him and open contempt is abusive enough and that's even without mentioning Tysha. But you are choosing a very weird hill to die on with regards to what makes Tywin abusive. You are essentially claiming that Tywin forbidding Tyrion to bring a prostitute to court is a horrible abuse and anyone claiming otherwise doesn't believe that Tywin is abusive at all.

Well, no, if I am saying that telling Tyrion not to bring Shae with him to KL is a legitimate demand, and that Tyrion wasn't fighting against Tywin's control in aCoK, that doesn't mean I am saying that Tyrion hasn't experienced any abuse at all from his father.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Dofs

[Lady Ella]

Tywin is definitely the worst Lannister because it all started with him. He is responsible for Cersei, who is responsible for Joffrey. And Kevin, Jaime and Tyrion would probably have become decent people if they'd had a better role model.

None of them are evil, though. That's simplistic. Tywin's actions all stem from insecurity. Tytos was weak and complacent, and that put House Lannister in jeopardy. Everything Tywin did after that was in a misguided attempt to make House Lannister look strong. His actions have all the hallmarks of a bully: try to make yourself look strong by being unnecessarily cruel to the weak. This is ramped up further with Cersei because, as a woman, her position is even more insecure. Joffrey is the most insecure of all: not only is he a child, he's also king of a kingdom designed to be ruled by someone who has dragons. There's a reason he resembles the Mad King, who was equally dragonless and therefore equally weak and vulnerable.

[Alester Florent]

22 minutes ago, Lady Ella said:

Tywin is definitely the worst Lannister because it all started with him. He is responsible for Cersei, who is responsible for Joffrey. And Kevin, Jaime and Tyrion would probably have become decent people if they'd had a better role model.

None of them are evil, though. That's simplistic. Tywin's actions all stem from insecurity. Tytos was weak and complacent, and that put House Lannister in jeopardy. Everything Tywin did after that was in a misguided attempt to make House Lannister look strong. His actions have all the hallmarks of a bully: try to make yourself look strong by being unnecessarily cruel to the weak. This is ramped up further with Cersei because, as a woman, her position is even more insecure.

I'm not inclined to let Cersei off the hook that easily. There's something rotten in her that can't be all down to Tywin's parenting.

Quote

Joffrey is the most insecure of all: not only is he a child, he's also king of a kingdom designed to be ruled by someone who has dragons. There's a reason he resembles the Mad King, who was equally dragonless and therefore equally weak and vulnerable.

As for Joffrey, he's hardly the first king not to have dragons. There are models for successful rule without dragons he could have drawn on: the Daerons, Jaehaerys II, Aegon V, Baelor, even the early reign of Aerys II. Or that of Robert, for that matter, the father he seems to idolise.

Aerys wasn't mad because his position was vulnerable. With Tywin as his Hand, he was arguably one of the strongest post-Dance kings. He was mad because of genuine mental illness: always eccentric, he became increasingly paranoid and then Duskendale tipped him over the edge. But Joffrey isn't mad: he's just cruel. And cruel in a different way to Tywin, who in his coldly inhuman way rationalises his cruelty as necessary to make a point. Joffrey is cruel for its own sake, and revels in the suffering he causes.

Joffrey's also cowardly, in a way which I don't think Tywin is. Tywin for all his faults does take to the field and actually lead his men, not in the Alexandrian way that Robb, Robert, Jaime etc. do, perhaps (although in his youth he probably saw more direct combat during the Ninepenny Kings war and the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion), but he's a proper field commander who has won his spurs. Joffrey, despite seemingly having some skill with the sword, is craven at heart, resiling from any physical threat. This may be partly Cersei's fault for presumably not permitting him to squire and thereby earn the honours of knighthood, but what kind of medieval king deserts the field because his mother told him to? If Joffrey were any kind of a king, that was the moment for him to take command himself, ignore Cersei, and lead the sally, as Robb or Robert or Daeron I would have, and win the hearts and minds of his subjects in the process. Even Tyrion, no more a warrior than Joffrey and very much Tywin's son, sees this and acts upon it.

[Dofs]

20 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I'm not inclined to let Cersei off the hook that easily. There's something rotten in her that can't be all down to Tywin's parenting.

I will tell that Tywin barely did any parenting with the twins in the first place. He physically couldn't, being most of the time during their childhood on the other side of the continent. The influence Tywin had on Jaime and Cersei is overstated by many.

So I will agree that Cersei can't be explained by Tywin's parenting also because of that.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Dofs

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, Dofs said:

One Hand built an entire tunnel to a brothel so that nobody would see him going there,

That was Tywin. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I'm not inclined to let Cersei off the hook that easily. There's something rotten in her that can't be all down to Tywin's parenting.

As for Joffrey, he's hardly the first king not to have dragons. There are models for successful rule without dragons he could have drawn on: the Daerons, Jaehaerys II, Aegon V, Baelor, even the early reign of Aerys II. Or that of Robert, for that matter, the father he seems to idolise.

Aerys wasn't mad because his position was vulnerable. With Tywin as his Hand, he was arguably one of the strongest post-Dance kings. He was mad because of genuine mental illness: always eccentric, he became increasingly paranoid and then Duskendale tipped him over the edge. But Joffrey isn't mad: he's just cruel. And cruel in a different way to Tywin, who in his coldly inhuman way rationalises his cruelty as necessary to make a point. Joffrey is cruel for its own sake, and revels in the suffering he causes.

Joffrey's also cowardly, in a way which I don't think Tywin is. Tywin for all his faults does take to the field and actually lead his men, not in the Alexandrian way that Robb, Robert, Jaime etc. do, perhaps (although in his youth he probably saw more direct combat during the Ninepenny Kings war and the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion), but he's a proper field commander who has won his spurs. Joffrey, despite seemingly having some skill with the sword, is craven at heart, resiling from any physical threat. This may be partly Cersei's fault for presumably not permitting him to squire and thereby earn the honours of knighthood, but what kind of medieval king deserts the field because his mother told him to? If Joffrey were any kind of a king, that was the moment for him to take command himself, ignore Cersei, and lead the sally, as Robb or Robert or Daeron I would have, and win the hearts and minds of his subjects in the process. Even Tyrion, no more a warrior than Joffrey and very much Tywin's son, sees this and acts upon it.

Joffrey was 12. The people you mention were 15 at the youngest. 

Hmm, sometimes I think one issue about age in this forum is y’all aren’t around a lot of kids. So let me explain. 12 year old boys are essentially still children. I’ve taught many of them. Most of them have not gotten through puberty. They act still basically like elementary school kids (12 year olds are middle schoolers in case no one knew) just with now crazed hormones flowing do to puberty starting. 15 year old boys on the other hand are now teenagers. They have finished puberty and have come basiclly into their adult body, but also their mind has evened out. Are they completely mature? Hell no, however the change in behavior is extreme. 

A note : Girls also do all this, but they do it slightly earlier as they both start and finish puberty earlier. Still everything I said here can easily apply to Sansa, who people often expect to act not like her age (Hint : Middle school girls acting like Sansa in book 1 would be INCREDIBLY normal). 

So my point is : Joffrey is a boy. He might act tough but…he is in fact still mentally in the state of a child, not an adult. Him not leading the charge when his mother says not toooo…isn’t surprising. Probably a lot of you don’t want to remember how you actually acted in middle school. Trust me - You were annoying. You were arrogant. And you went and hid when anyone called out your arrogance, lol. (95% of middle school boys act tough up to the point I raise my voice, and then suddenly they are little boys again. This is ESPECIALLY true for spoiled rich kids who make up crazed lies about how strict I am, because I said something like, “Stop using your phone in class,” strictly, lol).

Edited November 9, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Alester Florent]

22 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Joffrey was 12. The people you mention were 15 at the youngest.

Joffrey was 13 at the Blackwater. Daeron was 14 when he led the attack on Dorne. I know kids do a lot of growing up between 12 and 16 but that age gap is hardly significant.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Joffrey was 13 at the Blackwater. Daeron was 14 when he led the attack on Dorne. I know kids do a lot of growing up between 12 and 16 but that age gap is hardly significant.

I would say based on Joffrey’s behavior, it is. He acts like a pre-teen boy. Robb acts like a teenage boy. Daenerys acts like a teenage girl. Jon Snow acts like a 35 year old, lol. Eventually Joffrey would have aged though, and become more mature. Doesn’t mean that would be a capable adult, but he would have changed. Even incapable adults don’t act like pre-teens. 

At that age, a few years can make a world of difference. Try teaching a group of 5th graders followed by a group of 9th graders (just 4 years difference) and get ready to be shocked. The former act like big children. The latter try to act like adults (they fail, but they try). Big changes happen at this age that vastly alters behavior, maturity, and their reaction to fear. 

PS. Sansa in AGoT acts like a preteen girl, and by AFfC she is acting more like a teenage girl. We saw her mature in front of us. Joffrey would have eventually done this as well. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[the trees have eyes]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:21 PM, Alester Florent said:

Actually, I'd say being a parent/patriarch seems to be one of the things Walder is actually alright at. He looks after all his kids, and their kids, etc. including the bastards, and has raised a pretty decent heir in Stevron. 

There's a degree to which Walder is a responsible parent, providing for all his offspring.  And then he goes and involves them all (mostly) in The Red Wedding, including his daughters and grand-daughters, most notably the poor terrified Roislin who bait the trap for the Northmen/Riverlanders.  That's some wedding day!  Most of his offspring are now criminals or pariahs in Westeros.   Plus, consider poor old Aegon "Jinglebell" - "he's a grandson, not a son, and he never was much use".  He cares about his House and his blood but does he care about his children?  Not much, I think.

On 11/8/2023 at 6:41 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Roose Bolton is shockingly non-controlling. Ramsay is literally running wild doing things that is gonna make every single soul in the North hate the Boltons, and Roose is like, “Just be quieter about it.” lol. Horrible example. Now don’t get me wrong, Roose is also an actively abusive father, but controlling? 

We are talking about emotional abuse and controlling behaviour.  Horrible example of what, exactly?  "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother"......

On 11/8/2023 at 6:51 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think what is happening in this thread is something that used to be common in general Tywin apologia, which is the normalizing of horrible actions because as an audience we are privy to some of the most horrible wartime atrocities (and most horrible people) in Westeros. I am glad that for the most part, it seems like general apologia has died down. There is an understanding thst Tywin is a horrible person doing horrible things that is generally accepted in the fandom these days.

However, now in this thread, we are seeing the same kind of logic, but applied specifically to parenting. Listen, just like because other peoole also do horrible war crimes that does not excuse Tywin’s war crimes, the same thing, but for parenting. When y’all choose other very obviously horrible parents and then use that as examples for why Tywin ISN’T abusive, it boggles my mind.

Hmm everyone hates comparing to the modern day (I suspect because they want to escape from real life or pretend that Westeros and all its horribleness is very far away from rwal life)…but guys. Do you know abusibe parents still exist today? And that the existence of commonplace controlling or abusive parents doesnt mean “abusive parenting is normalnand so therefore it is jot abusive” lol. The reason we consider abusive parenting bad today isnt because it isnt common. More importantluy - People in Westeros RECOGNIZE that abusive parenting is abusive too. When Tyrion describes the horrible things Tywin does, people are not lik “suck it up bro” they say something like “id have killed that dude” (which tyrion goes on to do). We are mwant, as an audience, to read Tywin as abusive toward Tyrion (and Id argue Cersei and Jaime as well). To be blunt, I think if you are reading Tywin as not abusive, you are reading the book wrong. 

There's a problem here in that you are fighting the good fight against what you perceive to be "Tywin apologia".  This leads you to question the motives of anyone who takes your view that Tywin is somehow uniquely cruel as somehow minimising or condoning Tywin's behaviour.  Maybe you see that in this thread but I don't, I just see a lot of people condemning Tywin but pointing out that he is not unique in his behaviour, or that they consider Cersei to be a worse person than him.  People can agree or disagree on this, yes?  You also seem to treat the examples given to you of other terrible or abusive parents as some kind of attempt to portray this as the system and therefore somehow normal or okay, thus again justifying or excusing Tywin's behaviour.  It's not.  It's pointing out that terrible as Tywin is, he's not unique.  You can make as much or as little as you want of this but you seem to read between the lines and treat this as a defense of Tywin which leads to both lecturing and emotionally charged responses which don't really help either the tone or conduct of a discussion.

Regardless of our own personal takes, Westeros has a feudal nobility with a strict paternal and hierarchical control of one's House, whether children, siblings, or, yes, widowed mothers (Hoster Tully ordered Brynden to marry and Brynden had to leave his service to avoid this; Robb could have ordered Catelyn to marry again for political reasons had he chosen to).  No one comes out of this particularly well by modern standards: Ned marries Catelyn in his dead brother's stead and they have never even met; Catelyn, as delegate, arranges Robb's betrothal to *any* Frey girl without Robb even being present and Edmure is later shoehorned into Robb's place despite his obvious reluctance; Hoster Tully effectively trades Lysa to Jon Arryn for military support (this is exactly what a marriage alliance is for).  No one has free agency.

Tywin tells his son not to take the prostitute he has taken up with to Court and later arranges Tyrion's marriage to Sansa Stark so Tyrion's son will be Lord of Winterfell.  No one's saying he's Dad of the year but if you want to portray Tywin as uniquely terrible, controlling and abusive towards Tyrion this isn't the way.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

There's a degree to which Walder is a responsible parent, providing for all his offspring.  And then he goes and involves them all (mostly) in The Red Wedding, including his daughters and grand-daughters, most notably the poor terrified Roislin who bait the trap for the Northmen/Riverlanders.  That's some wedding day!  Most of his offspring are now criminals or pariahs in Westeros.   Plus, consider poor old Aegon "Jinglebell" - "he's a grandson, not a son, and he never was much use".  He cares about his House and his blood but does he care about his children?  Not much, I think.

We are talking about emotional abuse and controlling behaviour.  Horrible example of what, exactly?  "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother"......

There's a problem here in that you are fighting the good fight against what you perceive to be "Tywin apologia".  This leads you to question the motives of anyone who takes your view that Tywin is somehow uniquely cruel as somehow minimising or condoning Tywin's behaviour.  Maybe you see that in this thread but I don't, I just see a lot of people condemning Tywin but pointing out that he is not unique in his behaviour, or that they consider Cersei to be a worse person than him.  People can agree or disagree on this, yes?  You also seem to treat the examples given to you of other terrible or abusive parents as some kind of attempt to portray this as the system and therefore somehow normal or okay, thus again justifying or excusing Tywin's behaviour.  It's not.  It's pointing out that terrible as Tywin is, he's not unique.  You can make as much or as little as you want of this but you seem to read between the lines and treat this as a defense of Tywin which leads to both lecturing and emotionally charged responses which don't really help either the tone or conduct of a discussion.

Regardless of our own personal takes, Westeros has a feudal nobility with a strict paternal and hierarchical control of one's House, whether children, siblings, or, yes, widowed mothers (Hoster Tully ordered Brynden to marry and Brynden had to leave his service to avoid this; Robb could have ordered Catelyn to marry again for political reasons had he chosen to).  No one comes out of this particularly well by modern standards: Ned marries Catelyn in his dead brother's stead and they have never even met; Catelyn, as delegate, arranges Robb's betrothal to *any* Frey girl without Robb even being present and Edmure is later shoehorned into Robb's place despite his obvious reluctance; Hoster Tully effectively trades Lysa to Jon Arryn for military support (this is exactly what a marriage alliance is for).  No one has free agency.

Tywin tells his son not to take the prostitute he has taken up with to Court and later arranges Tyrion's marriage to Sansa Stark so Tyrion's son will be Lord of Winterfell.  No one's saying he's Dad of the year but if you want to portray Tywin as uniquely terrible, controlling and abusive towards Tyrion this isn't the way.

From what I remember, I didn't have a problem with your takes. It was certain others who were certainly doing some apologia and normalizing controlling behavior (and acting like it wasn't controlling to do those things). 

Tywin is not uniquely terrible, he's just MORE terrible overall. If anything, i would say what separates Tywin from Cersei for me...is amount of horror caused, and not the horribleness of each individual action. However, the rape of Tysha..honestly one of the most specifically cruel actions in these books (and is specifically related to Tywin controlling Tyrion, which is what we were talking about). However, I admit, there are plenty of other specifically horrible and cruel actions (Presumably Euron was raping Aeron and Urrigon, how Ramsay chases women and murders them + flays them, Cersei's giving of Falyse and others to Qyburn, Tywin's other main horrific act with the Reynes and Tarbecks; anything the Slavers do in Slaver's Bay, Gregor Clegane/The Tickler's questioning of random peasants, and finally the Red Wedding).

My point has never been that there aren't other horrific things. My point has always been...they still aren't normal. If our PoVs were like....Balon Swann, Garlan Tyrell, Ellaria Sand, Margerry Tyrell, and Myranda Royce, we would not be privy to all these horrible things. We are just close to ...like all the worst people in Westeros. We get to see them all. But they actually aren't normal, they are only a small percent of the total population, it's just we get an up close and personal look at basically all of these horrible people and all the worst atrocities. We have all the Lannister children telling us about Cersei and Tywin's actions, we have Theon to fill us in on Ramsay, and various Greyjoys on Euron, and without Catelyn and Robb front and center, the Red Wedding would have been a far away and rightfully probably seen as a horrific act by everyone else (as much as it for us). Is Westeros violent and horrifying? Yes. Are the things we see an overall normal view of Westeros? Also no. We are privy to the heart of the worst people, we are frontline to a horrific war (which might be the most violent war since Aegon's conquest), and we are meant to be horrified by all of this. It isn't normal and we shouldn't normalize it. 

Again, I don't think (from what I remember) you did this. But others did. "Tywin isn't that bad," is a thing I always hate to see, because, no, he is that bad. 

[Dofs]

12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

That was Tywin. 

It could be him but "whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly"  is a weird way to refer to Tywin, so I wouldn't claim that it was him with such confidence. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Dofs

[Lee-Sensei]

I'm not sure how much can be blamed on Tywin with the twins. They were fooling around while Joanna was still alive.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:44 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin's complete failure as a parent is made very clear by the fact that one of his sons kills him after his other son helps him escape, and Cersei models herself after Tywin.

Exactly; though you’re forgetting that Tywin was also sleeping with the same woman his son was with, because Tywin is the worst hypocrite in the series.

[sifth]

31 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I'm not sure how much can be blamed on Tyrion with the twins. They were fooling around while Joanna was still alive.

If only Joanna lived. From all we’ve heard, I get the feeling she would have been a mother. 

[Alester Florent]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:32 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I would say based on Joffrey’s behavior, it is. He acts like a pre-teen boy. Robb acts like a teenage boy. Daenerys acts like a teenage girl. Jon Snow acts like a 35 year old, lol. Eventually Joffrey would have aged though, and become more mature. Doesn’t mean that would be a capable adult, but he would have changed. Even incapable adults don’t act like pre-teens. 

At that age, a few years can make a world of difference. Try teaching a group of 5th graders followed by a group of 9th graders (just 4 years difference) and get ready to be shocked. The former act like big children. The latter try to act like adults (they fail, but they try). Big changes happen at this age that vastly alters behavior, maturity, and their reaction to fear. 

PS. Sansa in AGoT acts like a preteen girl, and by AFfC she is acting more like a teenage girl. We saw her mature in front of us. Joffrey would have eventually done this as well. 

Maybe I'm being a little harsh on Joffrey for his performance at the Blackwater, but I don't think the overall assessment of him as a coward is unfair. All bullies are, on some level.

The Mycah incident is the obvious example. He picks on Mycah knowing he can't fight back, and when he is surprised and overpowered, runs off to his mother to beg for her intercession in (what Robert correctly diagnosed as) a childish squabble where he got exactly what was coming to him. His actions resulted in the death of the wholly innocent Mycah, would if left unchecked have resulted in Arya's death or mutilation, and his fiancée's losing her pet (Arya too). In the process he earns open derision in front of half the court.

It's hard to imagine Tywin behaving in such a manner, even as a child. Not that he wouldn't necessarily have taken revenge on Arya and Nymeria (and probably Mycah too, by way of example), but he'd have done so himself, on his own terms, in a way that maintained his dignity.

[Hugorfonics]

58 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's hard to imagine Tywin behaving in such a manner, even as a child. Not that he wouldn't necessarily have taken revenge on Arya and Nymeria (and probably Mycah too, by way of example), but he'd have done so himself, on his own terms, in a way that maintained his dignity.

Heavy interpretation on the word dignity. Tywin, like his three children, do what they want with no regards for the rules or regulations, Jaime a little less so and it drive him bonkers. Unflinching, forever bluffing, just really good at the game Chicken. 
So whats with the kid? He does what mommy says? But women have soft hearts, I think Joff, like the Lannister name he does not have also does whatever he wants. He used Cersei like a cyvesse piece, perhaps knowing she will demand a wolf. And Sandor as well, Joff knew would come for his revenge. So I do think child Tywin would have behaved similarly, perhaps worse and maybe less sniffling but Joff seems to have held himself together in typical Lannister fashion.

[Dofs]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Heavy interpretation on the word dignity. Tywin, like his three children, do what they want with no regards for the rules or regulations, Jaime a little less so and it drive him bonkers. Unflinching, forever bluffing, just really good at the game Chicken. 
So whats with the kid? He does what mommy says? But women have soft hearts, I think Joff, like the Lannister name he does not have also does whatever he wants. He used Cersei like a cyvesse piece, perhaps knowing she will demand a wolf. And Sandor as well, Joff knew would come for his revenge. So I do think child Tywin would have behaved similarly, perhaps worse and maybe less sniffling but Joff seems to have held himself together in typical Lannister fashion.

Tywin is obsessed with looking strong and is extremely afraid of being laughed at and belittled. You can call it almost a phobia on the point of paranoia, he literally never smiles because of that.

These personal fears affect a lot what he does and how he does it. It essentially shapes his own personal rules. Joffrey is simply not that kind of a person.

Not sure there even is any Lannister like that at all, to be honest. Tywin is a very special case.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dofs