What would you say is the moral scaling of the Lannister family in terms of how morally bankrupt they are?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Tywin is lawful evil

Cersei is chaotic evil

Tyrion is chaotic neutral

Jaime is chaotic good

Daven is lawful neutral

 

If we go this way, then Tywin and Kevan are lawful evil. Cersei and Joffrey are chaotic evil. Tyrion at this point is probably also chaotic evil, although I'll give you that he is kind of...seesawing in the balance between chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. Jaime is chaotic neutral. Daven is ....not sure, but I'd go true neutral. Myrcella is lawful good. Tommen is....neutral good. 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Even if this act was genuine on his part, he later subverts it by having the septa executed and Sansa beaten and threatened with rape.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that most of the "kindness" or "advances" he made towards Sansa (and her Septa) were urged by his mother. Cersei urged him to go to her rescue when she was clearly intimidated by Ser Ilyn. After that whole incident died down she suggested he entertain Sansa when Cersei had to cancel her afternoon plans with her so that she could attend a council meeting.

[KingAerys_II]

Wow, you got Kevan and Tyrion issues, Tyrion evil? C'mon. Anyway Lancel was a neutral evil, now he seems to be a fanatic so I don't know if he is good

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

43 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Wow, you got Kevan and Tyrion issues, Tyrion evil? C'mon. Anyway Lancel was a neutral evil, now he seems to be a fanatic so I don't know if he is good

Yes. He is selfish and self serving. In ADwD, he rapes at least one slave woman (possibly two, as he threatens to rape and murder another slave woman in Illyrio's estate). He purposely messes up Aegon and Jon Connington's plans...for....reasons? Self serving reasons certainly. 

Through ASoS, I would put Tyrion down as chaotic neutral. But the books didn't end there, another book happened...and Tyrion was essentially selfish throughout the book. His own thoughts are often quite dark, and apathetic toward both his own life, but also the lives of others. Now, when Penny shows up, I began to have hope that he would even out again...but I'd say that has yet to be seen. Anyone who commits multiple rapes moves toward evil in my book though. 

Okay, here is a question. Why do you think Lancel is evil? Because I have a feeling it's for very similar reasons to why I think Kevan is. But, I'll hear you out before I decide how you can possibly think Lancel is more evil than his father. 

[Craving Peaches]

Cersei is pure evil and nothing will convince me otherwise. Baby murderers do not belong in the 'inconsistently heinous' category.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Cersei is pure evil and nothing will convince me otherwise. Baby murderers do not belong in the 'inconsistently heinous' category.

Plus it's clear as day, she only views her kids, as an extension of herself.

[Arthur Peres]

Why keep making excuses for Cersei and Jaime ? They are worse than Tywin.

Say what you want about Tywin, the guy does not do pointless actions of cruelty . He always has a cause and something to gain from it or it's punishing something that he perceived as a insult. He is very pragmetical and lack any sort of ethic and moral boundries but he is not a pure evil. Jaime and Cersei are closer to that.

Jaime made fun of a mother after telling her that he threw her child of a tower and made him cripple, he also mocked her husband death , he had no reason to act like that, nothing to gain and he actually had something to lose there(If I was in Cats place he would be a eunuch and later a cripple.), but he did it anyway. Jaime tried to kill Arya and Jaime ambushed Ned and was smilling when Ned's men died and he had nothing to gain by doing that, so much so that he had to flee the city after. The only good deed this monster did in the whole five books was rescueing Brienne from the bear. Everything else is the guy being self serving, cruel, pushing the blame on others. I dont get this bs about redemption. Jaime never says that he was wrong, he resents the judment that he received for his poor actions but he keeps inflicting injustices wherever he goes.

Cersei is cleary more evil than Tywin and probably worse than Joffrey. She has just as much attrocities on her resume as him, but unlike Tywin she does not have any result to show for it, and neither has a reason. She sold kids into slavery, she mocked a victim of rape, she ordered a hit on a baby because she didn't like the name, she send several people to be tortured by Qyburn, she raised Joffrey, tortured he baby brother, killed her friend over paranoia, she kept tauting Ned and Robert for no reason, she wanted to have Arya maimed, she aborted Robert legit kid(that would be to her advantage if it lived),  she ordered Alayaya to be tortured... I'm just putting the ones she had no reason to do that and were pure cruelty for no gain... Maybe even the plot to kill Tristane can enter on that list, and I'm sure I am forgeting plenty.

 

Cersei> Joffrey> Jaime> Tywin> Kevan> Tyrion>Genna>>>>>>>>>Lancel>>>>>>>>>Myrcella>Tommen.

[SeanF]

Cersei and Tywin are both wantonly cruel, petty, and selfish, even by the standards of their world.  And, it’s all self-defeating.  Cersei sees her rule collapse, Tywin has a good run, but achieves nothing lasting.

Kevan is the kind of man who just obeys orders, however vile.

Tyrion has moments of humanity, but he also wants to be his father.  As of ADWD, he wants to watch the World burn.

Jaime feels tormented over his crimes, but to date, he has not done much to make amends.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Cersei is cleary more evil than Tywin and probably worse than Joffrey. She has just as much attrocities on her resume as him, but unlike Tywin she does not have any result to show for it, and neither has a reason. 

1. This is important - Being successful...is not a mark of goodness. It is just as evil to be evil and good at it, as evil and bad at it. In fact, I would argue intelligent/successful people who are evil are bigger threat to the world than stupid/unsuccessful ones. 

2. Cersei has reasons. You just..don't like her reasons. You see the logic to Tywin's reasons, because you think attaining power and control are things people should want to have (those are Tywin's goals essentially). Cersei though, ALSO wants to gain power and have control..she is just...for lack of a better word, stupid. She's bad at it. Also, she is paranoid in a way that Tywin was not. But being paranoid I don't think makes a person more evil, just...worse at properly maintaining their power. Cersei's reasons for most of what she does in AFfC is to "forestall" a prophecy. Again, I also think this is a stupid reason to do something, but she has reasons. She is not doing her actions at random for no reason, her reasons are just ones you don't like for a reason you dislike. But here is the thing : Honestly, I think it is fucked up when people "understand" Tywin's reasons. His reasons are just...personal gain of power, money, influence, and control. That's it. He doesn't give a shit about anyone except himself. He treats his children as pawns and disowns them out of turn if they refuse to do what he tells them. Tywin just wants to be in charge of everything. That's it. He wants literally everyone to do exactly what he tells them to do, and he acts in horrible and violent ways when they don't. His reasons are also shit dude. Just as shit as Cersei's. Violentally controlling people...is not a good reason to do things. You treat the concept that everyone should want to ...have as much power/money/control as possible as self evident...and ..it's not. We shouldn't. That's bad. 

[Arthur Peres]

7 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

1. This is important - Being successful...is not a mark of goodness. It is just as evil to be evil and good at it, as evil and bad at it. In fact, I would argue intelligent/successful people who are evil are bigger threat to the world than stupid/unsuccessful ones. 

 

I agree, but Tywin reacts to the incetives that Westeros give him. If being nice, polite and honorable was rewarded he would go for that route. He does not take pleasure in cruelty. Cersei does.

 

8 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

2. Cersei has reasons.

She doesn't. She has emotinos and lash out like a animal, goes after minor players for petty pride.

12 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei's reasons for most of what she does in AFfC is to "forestall" a prophecy.

Some of her actions are for that reason. Framing Margeary, ordering the death of thousands of dwarves, demanding that Myrcella return to KL while ordering a hit on Tristane... none of the actions I mention have any relation with the prophecy (maybe the killing of her friend).

Going after the baby of Bronn for the name was pointless cruelty.

Going after Jon Snow had nothing to do with the prophecy.

demanding Arya to be maimed was pointless cruelty and had nothing to do with the prophecy.

aborting Robert's kid actually lets her closer to the prophecy and is also made by pure stupidity and petty pride.

Sending women to be tortured by Qyburn has no relation with the prophecy.

Cersei makes one enemy after another, part of that is because she is dumb sure, but a lot of that is just pure evil being self destructive.

 

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, I think it is fucked up when people "understand" Tywin's reasons. His reasons are just...personal gain of power, money, influence, and control. That's it. He doesn't give a shit about anyone except himself.

Yeah, I never said otherwise. Tywin is selfserving, and his evil actions are made to give him something. Cersei, like Joffrey does evil because she likes it and will keep doing evil even if is counter productive.

She gains nothing by that, it's just pointless cruelty.

[Arthur Peres]

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Kevan is the kind of man who just obeys orders, however vile.

 

He really isn't. Kevan took part in all of Tywin's crimes and then later on took part on his niece humiliation and had the gal to say that Tywin would do the same... when is more likely that Tywin would kill every single person in KL before letting his daughter be put to through that.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

She gains nothing by that, it's just pointless cruelty.

What did Tywin gain by raping Tysha? What did he gain by parading his father's mistress naked around Lannisport? What did he gain by CONSTANTLY being cruel to Tyrion for his entire life? Hint : He gained nothing. He was just cruel for cruelty's sake and because he raised Cersei to be exactly the way she is now. He is just Cersei, but less stupid. Or rather, Cersei is Tywin if he was constantly paranoid and saw a threat behind every action. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Going after the baby of Bronn for the name was pointless cruelty.

Going after Jon Snow had nothing to do with the prophecy.

demanding Arya to be maimed was pointless cruelty and had nothing to do with the prophecy.

Treating his children like shit after they don't do what he wants is pointless cruelty. 

Raping his son's first wife is pointless cruelty and has nothing to do with a logical decision. 

Fuck, murdering an entire house that his father has absolved of their crimes created pointless conflict, so that he could then be pointlessly cruel. 

Pointlessly ordering the deaths of peasants he cares nothing about is pointless cruelty (I'm pretty sure he does this multiple times, and it serves no purpose other than to be cruel). 

Tywin would order the same maiming in the same situation, and you know it, as long as the person to be maimed had no power (or he wanted to punish them). 

Forcing his father's paramour to walk around naked...because why? Because his father liked her and gave her jewels? served no purpose and was pointless cruelty. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

aborting Robert's kid actually lets her closer to the prophecy and is also made by pure stupidity and petty pride.

Wowza. So you are saying women who are raped should be forced to give birth to their rapists children? I just want to clarify, is that what you are suggesting? Disagree hard. It is not petty pride, and it's ridiculous to call lit that way. Women in this time period faced real chances of DYING during labor and childbirth. It is a constant risk. Arrgh, I'm not going to get into modern takes on abortion...but...come on man. No. You can't actually not understand why someone wouldn't want to spend 9 months of their life suffering and then actually risk death to produce the baby of their rapist. I can't believe you don't see reasons to not want that, other than petty pride. I think this take just lacks empathy man. Trust me, I can't speak for all women, but I can say I've directly been told by my sister, my mother, and my partner that they would abort a baby if they were raped. My extremely Christian mother said this. Come on man, have some empathy dude. 

Edit : I want to say again. I don't think being cruel pointlessly is any more evil than being cruel pointfully. When Tywin has Tysha raped, its pointless cruelty. But if he had someone raped for a point, it wouldn't....be less evil. It's just as horrific. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Going after the baby of Bronn for the name was pointless cruelty.

Going after Jon Snow had nothing to do with the prophecy.

demanding Arya to be maimed was pointless cruelty and had nothing to do with the prophecy.

aborting Robert's kid actually lets her closer to the prophecy and is also made by pure stupidity and petty pride.

Sending women to be tortured by Qyburn has no relation with the prophecy.

Actually, lets list Cersei's reasons for each of these, because she has them, if you actually read the book : 

Baby Tyrion (that's his name) : Does she actually go after him? I don't remember her actually murdering the baby. She tries to have Bronn killed because she thinks he could behiding Tyrion (because she is paranoid). Again, her reasoning is terrible, but she had a reason. 

Jon Snow : She sees him as working for the Starks. She wants him removed for someone loyal to the Lannisters. Again, Jon is not actually a threat to her, but she perceives him as one. Paranoid yet again. There was a reason. 

Arya : She thinks by punishing Arya she will be letting everyone know to never harm Joffrey or they will receive the same. Again, I thnk this is crazed. It is cruel, but...she had an idea for a point. 

Aborting Robert's kids : She hates Robert. She does not want him to have his child be King. She hates everything about him, and wants him to have horns, etc. There is plenty of evidence of why Cersei feels this way. There is a story about Robert cheating on her early in their marriage, so then she cheats on him with Jaime. He calls her Lyanna on their marriage night. She thinks he is drunk. She doesn't want to have sex with him, and is forced to. Like...there are reasons.  Lots of them in fact. Read the books for fucks sake. 

Women to Qyburn : First one she sends she was told by Taena was spying on her (so she thought she was punishing someone who betrayed her). The second was Falyse who she is afraid will tell people about her illegal plan to murder Bronn (she wants Falyse silenced). Can't remember other than that, but...each time she has a reason to send him women.

Again, this is not suggesting that this isn't horrific. Cersei is a terrible, terrible person. But if you can excuse Tywin's actions as having reasons....then I can do the same for Cersei, as they both had reasons. You just understand/respect Tywin's reasons as I've said before (and I don't). I think Tywin's reasons are just as horrifying and unjustifiable as Cersei's reasons. It's all the same. It's all horrific and evil, but Tywin does his evil on a much larger scale. Cersei did these various individual actions, Tywin wages war by having the small folks murdered for no freaking reason constantly. He basically is a terrorist...who is in power. Like, honestly though...his war of terror doesn't actually accomplish anything. Like..did the Riverlands give up quicker because of his campaign? No, they were hardened into absolutely joining Robb Stark. Did the small folks fear him and so wanted the Lannisters over the Riverlords. God no. They hate the Lannisters (and Freys) and the second red wedding is coming. His cruel actions...are just as pointless as Cersei's, but on a grander scale. 

Oh! I thought of one. Tywin had Masha Heddle murdered for no freaking reason at all. Pointless pointless cruelty. 

Edit : Do you know what Tywin's cruelty actually accomplished. Everyone hates the Lannisters. Everyone. They fear them, but they hate them. And they are going to fall into ruin directly because of this hate. He is not loved. His legacy is not loved. Think of the Northern storyline. Currenlty the Starks have fallen from Grace, but the entire North loves them. They want them back in power and hate the Boltons. Eventually...i believe this will lead to the Starks being back in power. Hate and cruelty are only temporary stop gaps, and they always fail to actually inspire loyalty long term. People have to love you, not fear you, in the end, if you want your legacy secured. Tywin's legacy will be one of a tyrant, and possibly at the result of the ruin of his house. His legacy is a hardening of the Riverlands and the North against the Lannisters (probably for generations to come). 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Arthur Peres]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Fuck, murdering an entire house that his father has absolved of their crimes created pointless conflict, so that he could then be pointlessly cruel. 

 

They were made a example, and he moved against his father because the man was weak. The action is also not seem bad in Westeros, so much so that Tywin uses that for PR... something he would never do with the RW for example.

5 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Pointlessly ordering the deaths of peasants he cares nothing about is pointless cruelty (I'm pretty sure he does this multiple times, and it serves no purpose other than to be cruel). 

 

He really doesn't. He send his army to pillage the smallfolk to force Edmure to make a bad move in splitting his force trying to defend everything, and it worked. The other time he let his dogs into the smallfolk was the sack of KL, and he also did that with a clear objective. 

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Forcing his father's paramour to walk around naked...because why? Because his father liked her and gave her jewels? served no purpose and was pointless cruelty. 

Both Tywin and Kevan saw that woman as a harlot that took advantage of their weak father and took possessions she had no right, she also "helped" Tytos in ruling the Westerlands and by the state of things there before Tywin it was a poor job. No before you start I don't find that okay, but by westeros standarts this action is not nearly as brutal or bad as what Cersei does to Alayaya.

 

10 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin would order the same maiming in the same situation, and you know it, as long as the person to be maimed had no power (or he wanted to punish them). 

 

He would definily not. Tywin unlike Cersei has the common sense to read into Robert. He knew the man had no taste for killing children and he is not dumb enough to threat the daughter of his best friend. 

12 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Raping his son's first wife is pointless cruelty and has nothing to do with a logical decision. 

This is beyond cruel, but he also used that to turn Tyrion into a cynical and made Tyrion start to see things his way. Tywin did gain something from that mess.

13 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Treating his children like shit after they don't do what he wants is pointless cruelty. 

He does not do such thing. He is hostile to Tyrion and hates the dwarf, but he does not treat him poorly. He goes to war to rescue him, he let's the dwarf travel and spend his money on whatever he wants. He let him into his war council, made him hand, and when he goes after Tyrion is because the BS Tyrion said against Tommen, and for the murder of Joffrey.

Tywin is beyond nice towards Jaime that it's cleary his favorite.

Tywin is not great to Cersei, but he is far from terrible. He never goes after her, even when he sees her bs (when she puts the blame of Joffrey's words into Robert's)

24 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

So you are saying women who are raped should be forced to give birth to their rapists children?

...please stop jumping to the worst conclusion every single time...

 

25 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I just want to clarify, is that what you are suggesting?

That giving birth to that kid, would push her into a path directly oposed to the prophecy, and the kid would be also a shield for her bastards. 

 

27 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Arrgh, I'm not going to get into modern takes on abortion...but..

But you will...

29 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

o. You can't actually not understand why someone wouldn't want to spend 9 months of their life suffering and then actually risk death to produce the baby of their rapist. I can't believe you don't see reasons to not want that, other than petty pride. I think this take just lacks empathy man. Trust me, I can't speak for all women, but I can say I've directly been told by my sister, my mother, and my partner that they would abort a baby if they were raped. My extremely Christian mother said this. Come on man, have some empathy dude. 

And once again you go on and presume the worst and attack me...What should we do about this behaviour sir?

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You can't actually not understand why someone wouldn't want to spend 9 months of their life suffering and then actually risk death to produce the baby of their rapist. I can't believe you don't see reasons to not want that, other than petty pride. I think this take just lacks empathy man.

Cersei's rapist was also her husband cum king. It would grant her some political defense if she has at least one child that looks like Robert in an era when women not only have a high risk of dying in childbirth, but also cheating on your king is high treason and punishable by death.

Sometimes the Lannisters get through so much sh-t they seem to have plot armor.

[KingAerys_II]

Robert was a great warrior, but he was : a terrible king, an abusive husband, an horrible father

[KingAerys_II]

Anyway Cersei achieved the peak of depravity in House Lannister, not just because she cheated on Robert with her brother, but she uses sex to manipulate her subordinates, ordered the death of children, there are the rumors she sold into slavery one of Robert lover, she gave titles to Maester Qyburn and she condemns women to be tortured by him for no reason, so, it's evident she is a narcissist psychopath 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

And once again you go on and presume the worst and attack me...What should we do about this behaviour sir?

Asking someone to have empathy is not an attack. I guess I said your take lacked empathy. I don't see that as an attack, because it clearly does. You have no empathy for Cersei's reasoning right? If I am wrong, say so. If I am wrong, I guess I slandered you, but all your words imply I am right..therefore I just made a truthful statement about your lack of empathy for Cersei's point of view. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

But you will...

I didn't. I mentioned how women feel about carrying their rapists baby. That isn't a modern take. Past women also felt that way. That isn't some new thing. Rape sucks, whether it's legal or illegal. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

...please stop jumping to the worst conclusion every single time...

Answer the question. Do you think that women should be forced to carry their rapists babies? I am asking. Not jumping. Asking. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

He does not do such thing. He is hostile to Tyrion and hates the dwarf, but he does not treat him poorly. He goes to war to rescue him, he let's the dwarf travel and spend his money on whatever he wants. He let him into his war council, made him hand, and when he goes after Tyrion is because the BS Tyrion said against Tommen, and for the murder of Joffrey.

Tywin is beyond nice towards Jaime that it's cleary his favorite.

Tywin is not great to Cersei, but he is far from terrible. He never goes after her, even when he sees her bs (when she puts the blame of Joffrey's words into Robert's)

This is one of the worst takes I've ever read. No, he is terrible terrible, horrible father. Someone else take this, I'm tired. 

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

53 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Cersei's rapist was also her husband cum king. It would grant her some political defense if she has at least one child that looks like Robert in an era when women not only have a high risk of dying in childbirth, but also cheating on your king is high treason and punishable by death.

Sometimes the Lannisters get through so much sh-t they seem to have plot armor.

I agree. It would. I personally would make the choice to have a baby with Robert if I was her. But I am not her, and she clearly does not care. She hates the idea of raising Robert’s baby so much, she basically is willing to give up everything to ensure it never happens. 

Things being legal (ie marital rape) I doubt changes how one feels about the rape. Fun fact, marital rape was punished for the first time in modern Korean history just 10 years ago. I doubt the women being raped 12 years ago felt differently then the women being raped today. Also, I looked up the Us laws, and marital rape was only made illegal in 1993, on other words, in my lifetime. The concept that it is some ancient custom that has been outlawed for hundreds of years is just wrong. The idea that it being legal made women okay with it, is also wrong. 

I an not suggesting you think this by the way, merely pointing out that rape is wrong regardless of its legal status, and people being raped aren’t probably going to feel differently about it depending on its legality.