Israel - Hamas war VIII

[JoannaL]

also form the Guardian: "A Jewish man who fell backwards and hit his head during an altercation"

while the LATimes: "Kessler, of Thousand Oaks, was struck in the head, knocked backward and hit his head on the ground, deputies said."

so just fell backwards or struck?

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

also form the Guardian: "A Jewish man who fell backwards and hit his head during an altercation"

while the LATimes: "Kessler, of Thousand Oaks, was struck in the head, knocked backward and hit his head on the ground, deputies said."

so just fell backwards or struck?

And Foxnews says he was hit in the head with a megaphone that someone threw. Police dont have all the facts as of yet, and are looking for witnesses. Might be interviewing some as we type. 

The actual police quote - "Witness accounts indicated that Kessler was involved in a physical altercation with [pro-Palestinian] counterprotesters," the release continued. "During the altercation, Kessler fell backwards and struck his head on the ground."

What's your point?

Edited November 7, 2023 by Relic

[Frey family reunion]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You mean legally? I didn’t know that! I stand corrected, thank you.

Yea, it’s a jurisdictional and legal issue.  So if I hit someone in the head with a baseball bat in one county, and they are taken to a hospital in another county and die at a later date, the killing happened at the location and date where I hit the guy in the head with the bat.  (Assuming of course that was the cause of the person’s death).

So when charges are filed, the homicide or killing, takes place where the battery occurred, and that would be the proper place to prosecute the matter, and the date of the killing would also be when the bat hit the guy’s head.  So the applicable laws would be the ones that were in effect at that time.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[JoannaL]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

And Foxnews says he was hit in the head with a megaphone that someone threw. Police dont have all the facts as of yet, and are looking for witnesses. Might be interviewing some as we type. 

What's your point?

I think there is a difference between just stumbling and falling or being attacked?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Not a particularly egregious case of making violence sound accidental if you compare it to language used reporting police brutality, particularly in light of the fact there doesn't seem to be a lot of information yet, but if we want accuracy and active language in one case we should ask for it here too.   I can see Gorn's point even if this is an extremely mild example of this type of language bias.  

[Relic]

Just now, JoannaL said:

I think there is a difference between just stumbling and falling or being attacked?

Again, the police press release - 

"Witness accounts indicated that Kessler was involved in a physical altercation with [pro-Palestinian] counterprotesters," the release continued. "During the altercation, Kessler fell backwards and struck his head on the ground."

The Guardian clearly states that there was an altercation, and that police are investigating this as a homicide. 

[Altherion]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

Again, Foxnews, used the same headline.

They probably copy and pasted from somewhere else (I'm not even kidding).

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

The headline clearly states "AFTER AN ALTERCATION". You have to be an absolute moron not to understand that the man had an altercation and died because of it.

But that is still much broader than what actually happened. He could have died because of a heart attack due to the excitement or he could have tripped and fell badly when trying to get away. What actually happened (per the coroner's report) is that somebody killed him.

[JoannaL]

6 minutes ago, Relic said:

Again, the police press release - 

"Witness accounts indicated that Kessler was involved in a physical altercation with [pro-Palestinian] counterprotesters," the release continued. "During the altercation, Kessler fell backwards and struck his head on the ground."

The Guardian clearly states that there was an altercation, and that police are investigating this as a homicide. 

do you have a scource for the police press relaease?

the Latimes https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-06/man-dies-after-fight-at-protest-westlake-village-israel-hamas-war

states "Jewish man in California dies after being hit in the head during dueling Israel-Hamas war protests"

and "Kessler, of Thousand Oaks, was struck in the head, knocked backward and hit his head on the ground, deputies said."

[Relic]

15 minutes ago, Altherion said:

What actually happened (per the coroner's report) is that somebody killed him.

And all you have to do is click the article and read the next sentence to find that out. Its being investigated as a homicide, but hasnt been ruled a homicide, as of yet, if im reading all the articles correctly. 

Edit - the medical examiner ruled it a homicide. 

13 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

do you have a scource for the police press relaease?

 

It's in the foxnews article, the "least biased" source supporters of the Israeli bombing of Gaza can hope to find in American MSM. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Relic

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Gorn said:

Seriously? That's your argument?

I guess JFK wasn't assassinated either, since he died in a Dallas hospital. And Franz Ferdinand died at a governor's residence. If only someone could have explained to the Austrian government that it meant he wasn't actually "killed", the whole WWI thing could have been avoided.

It is a fact that the man concerned did not die at the protest, because he died in hospital. If that was the headline, it would be false and misleading. Just like saying JFK died in his car would be wrong.

Saying he was killed at the protest implies he died at the scene of the protest, rather than dying after the protest. I am not denying he could have been killed as you seem to imply, nor does the article deny this since it mentions authorities are treating this as a homicide, just that he did not die at the protest, which is true.

I don't know why you mention assassinations as we have no information to make that kind of judgement as of now. We don't know:

• What prompted the altercation
• Most details of actions taken during the altercation
• Who aside from that man was involved
• Etc.

It may be that he was pushed and hit his head straight after as a result. It may be that he tripped during the altercation and hit his head. It may be someone tripped him up. We don't know.

Edit: I would not have an issue with 'Jewish Man killed, died in hospital following altercation at protest' but just saying he was killed at the protest implies he died right there and then at the scene of the protest, which is not what happened.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Relic]

dp

Edited November 7, 2023 by Relic

[JoannaL]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

And all you have to do is click the article and read the next sentence to find that out. 

 

It's in the foxnews article, the "least biased" source supporters of the Israeli bombing of Gaza can hope to find in American MSM. 

No, I alsways thought that the LA times is mauch more reliable than Foxnews. And it is not a republican leaning newspaper

[JoannaL]

2 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

No, I alsways thought that the LA times is mauch more reliable than Foxnews. And it is not a republican leaning newspaper

Also its Californian, so in this case they are on site

[kissdbyfire]

@Craving Peaches see above @Frey family reunion’s post explaining that in US law the murder happens where the person was attacked, even if they die later in hospital. I didn’t know that.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Craving Peaches see above @Frey family reunion’s post explaining that in US law the murder happens where the person was attacked, even if they die later in hospital. I didn’t know that.

Yes, but the average reader would probably be mislead by the claim he was 'killed at the protest', as they would interpret that as him dying at the protest. Not all readers will know much about American criminal law.

Also, isn't killing as in the act which causes the death, factually separate to the death as in cessation of vital functions? I think readers would be thinking of this in terms of facts rather than the legal position which might not always align with facts.

Also, given no one has been found guilty of homicide, it is not clear legally either. Saying he was killed at the protest after someone was guilty would be legally correct to my understanding based on what others said, but it would still remain misleading to the average reader, wouldn't it?

Edited November 7, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but the average reader would probably be mislead by the claim he was 'killed at the protest', as they would interpret that as him dying at the protest.

Also, isn't killing as in the act which causes the death, separate to the death as in cessation of vital functions? I think readers would be thinking of this in terms of facts rather than the legal position which might not always align with facts.

True. But it may be standard reporting practice? I have no idea.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but the average reader would probably be mislead by the claim he was 'killed at the protest', as they would interpret that as him dying at the protest. Not all readers will know much about American criminal law.

But...he was killed at the protest. I think this is an incredibly nitpicky thing to care about, mind you, and if you want to find examples of the news media failing there are a whole lot out there that are FAR more important, but saying that he was killed is not particularly alarmist or weird. 

Also, pretty sure it was copied from the AP report which is what happens with like 85-90% of all news stories.

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, isn't killing as in the act which causes the death, separate to the death as in cessation of vital functions? I think readers would be thinking of this in terms of facts rather than the legal position which might not always align with facts.

Also, given no one has been found guilty of homicide, it is not clear legally either.

One does not have to be found guilty of homicide for a death to be ruled a homicide. 

[Zorral]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

incredibly nitpicky

So admonishes the king of nitpicking.   

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/death-of-jewish-man-reported-from-dueling-demonstrations-in-la

Quote

 

Late Update: Let me share some updated information as of this morning. My intent has been to be as specific as possible about the reports, especially details which may help distinguish between a scuffle with tragic consequences and a violent assault. Today The New York Times interviews a man, Jonathan Oswaks, who was there protesting with Kessler. He says he saw the other man swing his megaphone at Kessler before he fell to the ground but couldn’t be sure if it hit him. The LA Times reports that sheriffs deputies say that man struck Kessler knocking him to the ground. So it seems clear the pro-Palestinian protestor struck Kessler, though there’s still some fuzziness there. Other reports make clear that the Sheriff’s Department knows the identity of the other man and has spoken to him. But as yet there have been no arrests.

It seems authorities may know a good deal more than is yet public. According to this article, Kessler was recording the incident as it happened on his cell phone and Sheriffs deputies have recovered that video

 

.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Zorral

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So admonishes the king of nitpicking.   

Please, king of nitpicking was my father's name. You can call me prince of nitpicking.

[Relic]

Well, anyway, my point was that I didn't find the Guardian headline to be biased, or misleading. It was pretty clear, imho. Others disagree, mostly the folks who have expressed support of Israeli bombardment of Gaza. Guess that's the world we live in.