The « ei » suffix

[Hippocras]

I can’t find which thread right now, but someone recently posted about their interest in names ending with « ei », noting that this was something which occurs in relatively few families, and wondering what connection if any these characters might have had to Serenei of Lys.

I thought it would be interesting to collect examples here.

Most of the characters are found in the Crakehall family or Crakehall descendants in other families.

Married to a son of Amarei Crakehall we find Wynafrei Whent (who had no children) and in the same connected branch of the Frey family tree there is also Carolei Waynwood. This branch of the tree contains many family names that originate from the vicinity of Harrehnal (Darry, Whent, Hawick, and possibly Vypren though we do not know the location of their seat). 

The Crakehall family, meanwhile, is one of the few to use the name Shiera. The first Shiera, chronlologically, was of course a Blackwood and was the means by which the Storm Kings of House Durrendon claimed the Riverlands. This occured because the River Lords refused to be ruled by a woman after Shiera’s father died. The name Shiera does not end with « ei » but of course the mother of Shiera Seastar was Serenei of Lys.

This presents some interesting questions. Was Shiera Blackwood part Lyseni? Or does it work the other way around. Maybe Serenei of Lys was part Westerosi and connected to the Crakehalls, who themselves descended from Shiera Blackwood and her House Durrendon husband.

What other examples of names ending in « ei » can you list? Where do they fit in the timeline?

Edited February 15 by Hippocras

[Alester Florent]

There's Cersei, of course.

Also Amerei Frey. Both of them around drung the time of the novels.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

There's Cersei, of course.

Also Amerei Frey. Both of them around drung the time of the novels.

Yes, understanding where Cersei's name comes from is part of the goal. Amarei Frey is a direct descendant of Amarei Crakehall. Similarly, Cersei may descend from a Crakehall or whichever other source the Crakehalls got the name from. We don't know enough about Jeyne Marbrand's parents, or about Marla Prester's parents to be able to say.

[Sandy Clegg]

Here you go:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/List_of_characters

 

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, understanding where Cersei's name comes from is part of the goal

I'd love to know this too.

Here's your 'ei' characters:

Amarei Crakehall
Amerei Frey, known as "Gatehouse Ami".
Carolei Waynwood
Cersei Frey, called "Little Bee", daughter of Ser Raymund Frey.
Cersei Lannister, daughter of Lord Tywin, wife of King Robert, twin to Ser Jaime.
Elenei
Emberlei Frey
Janei Lannister
Marei

Mellei, servant to Arianne

Missandei

Sallei Paege
Serenei of Lys
Shirei Frey
Wynafrei Whent
Zei

ETA : So many Freys! Wynafrei is married to a Frey too. And Sallei.

ETA2 : The adult women seem a sexy bunch. Zei and Marei are whores. Cersei and Amerei Fret sleep around, Crakehalls are insulted as 'sluts', Shirei's mother sleeps around.

ETA3: Added Mellei & Missandei

 

Edited February 15 by Springwatch
Mixed up Carolei Waynwood and Carellen Smallwood.

[Hippocras]

@Springwatch

I think the clear Frey-Crakehall cluster works something like this:

 

Lord Crakehall + unknown mother (Lyseni?) -> Amerei Crakehall, Amarei's brother(s), sisters

Amarei's sons with Walder Frey marry Waynwood cousin, Whent cousin, and Darry cousin, children of Amarei's sisters
(Cersei Frey and Amarei Frey are both Amarei Crakehall's grandchildren, so we know their source)

Janei Lannister is interesting. Her mother is Dorna Swyft, who could descend from a Frey as she is described as chinless, and that is how many Freys are described. But no proof of that. I would need to investigate if it is only the Crakehall Freys who are chinless, in which case maybe Dorna's mother was a Crakehall instead.

Sallei Paege is found in the Blackwood branch of the Frey family. House Paege is in the Riverlands, beyond that we don't know.

Emberlei is found also in the Blackwood branch of Frey, but is not a descendant of Sallei. However her mother was a Lefford, which is a Westerlands House. So the likely Crakehall origin remains true for this line as well.

Finally, Shirei is also a Frey, but is found in Annara Farring's branch. Unknown connection there.

Meanwhile, Elenei belongs to mythology of the Stormlands. Which connects her most closely, of the characters we have discussed, to Shiera Blackwood, and that is not much of a connection. Still, the name might be telling us ..... something.

[Craving Peaches]

Ei means egg in German.

[Prince of the North]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ei means egg in German.

Oh!  "Cers" must surely mean "rotten", then, right?

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Janei Lannister is interesting. Her mother is Dorna Swyft, who could descend from a Frey as she is described as chinless, and that is how many Freys are described. But no proof of that. I would need to investigate if it is only the Crakehall Freys who are chinless, in which case maybe Dorna's mother was a Crakehall instead.

Reminds me that some children are named in tribute to another (e.g. Lollys's son Tyrion, originally intended to be Tywin). It's maybe possible that Janei is partly named for Cersei - Kevan was totally charmed by the young Cersei (Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon?).

[Gilbert Green]

These are just names.   A suffix this basic is not going to have a common derivation or significance across an influx of multiple cultures.  Nor, realistically, will it have a common spelling.  So "ei" and "ey" are basically the same.  You might as well start a thread debating the significance of names beginning with the letter "b".  But I'm sure a thread will be started for that soon.

There seems to be some tendency to spell masculine names "ey" and feminine names "ei".  Hence, we see Andrey but not Andrei.  But that seems not to be universal, as I can think of at least one exception in Barbrey Dustin.  

And of course, the derivation of that is that GRRM started with Barbara, and changed it a bit; just as he changed Edward to Eddard.  He could just as easily made it Barbrei.  Similarly, "Winifred" became "Wynafrei"; "Circe" becomes "Cersei"; "Sally" becomes "Sallei"; "Janey" becomes "Janei"; "Elena" becomes "Elenei".

Missandei is a foreign name from a foreign culture.  It is not going to have anything in common with other names ending in "ei" except maybe that it got transliterated in a certain way.

Janei named after Cersei?  No.  Just no.  That's like saying Gandalf was named after Adolf [Hitler].

Women with the "ei" suffix are promiscuous?  No.  Just no.

Edited February 15 by Gilbert Green

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Reminds me that some children are named in tribute to another (e.g. Lollys's son Tyrion, originally intended to be Tywin). It's maybe possible that Janei is partly named for Cersei - Kevan was totally charmed by the young Cersei (Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon?).

It is probably more than that in this case, though hard to pinpoint.

A small detail that is probably relevant:

The cooks at Harrenhal apparently hated Harys Swyft and spit in his food. And yet whenever we are actually spending any time with Harys he seems like a pretty mild guy, not particularly brave and not a brute. Which does make one wonder about the reasons for the hatred.

Speculation, but since Harrenhal servants served House Whent until the Wot5K, it might not be about Harys Swyft himself, but rather, about some sort of history between Whents and Swyfts. And since Wynafrei Whent is another one of the names we are discussing here, the history might be one of family betrayal, Wynafrei having ultimately some kind of frosty family rivalry or relationship to Harys, Janei's grandfather.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

10 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I can’t find which thread right now, but someone recently posted about their interest in names ending with « ei », noting that this was something which occurs in relatively few families, and wondering what connection if any these characters might have had to Serenei of Lys.

I thought it would be interesting to collect examples here.

Most of the characters are found in the Crakehall family or Crakehall descendants in other families.

Married to a son of Amarei Crakehall we find Wynafrei Whent (who had no children) and in the same connected branch of the Frey family tree there is also Carolei Waynwood. This branch of the tree contains many family names that originate from the vicinity of Harrehnal (Darry, Whent, Hawick, and possibly Vypren though we do not know the location of their seat). 

The Crakehall family, meanwhile, is one of the few to use the name Shiera. The first Shiera, chronlologically, was of course a Blackwood and was the means by which the Storm Kings of House Durrendon claimed the Riverlands. This occured because the River Lords refused to be ruled by a woman after Shiera’s father died. The name Shiera does not end with « ei » but of course the mother of Shiera Seastar was Serenei of Lys.

This presents some interesting questions. Was Shiera Blackwood part Lyseni? Or does it work the other way around. Maybe Serenei of Lys was part Westerosi and connected to the Crakehalls, who themselves descended from Shiera Blackwood and her House Durrendon husband.

What other examples of names ending in « ei » can you list? Where do they fit in the timeline?

"e-i"? "E-I"?

Oh...

Edited February 15 by Floki of the Ironborn

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is probably more than that in this case, though hard to pinpoint.

A small detail that is probably relevant:

The cooks at Harrenhal apparently hated Harys Swyft and spit in his food. And yet whenever we are actually spending any time with Harys he seems like a pretty mild guy, not particularly brave and not a brute. Which does make one wonder about the reasons for the hatred.

Speculation, but since Harrenhal servants served House Whent until the Wot5K, it might not be about Harys Swyft himself, but rather, about some sort of history between Whents and Swyfts. And since Wynafrei Whent is another one of the names we are discussing here, the history might be one of family betrayal, Wynafrei having ultimately some kind of frosty family rivalry or relationship to Harys, Janei's grandfather.

That is good thinking - there's got to be something going on here, even though the Swyft castle is a long way from Harrenhal. It is very near Crakehall though, which is a good enough connection in itself.

[Sandy Clegg]

On 2/15/2024 at 6:08 PM, Gilbert Green said:

These are just names.   A suffix this basic is not going to have a common derivation or significance across an influx of multiple cultures.  Nor, realistically, will it have a common spelling.  So "ei" and "ey" are basically the same.  You might as well start a thread debating the significance of names beginning with the letter "b".

Having 26 separate threads (names from A-Z) actually sounds like my kind of heaven  

[Hippocras]

20 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Having 26 separate threads (names from A-Z) actually sounds like my kind of heaven  

Ha ha.

I really genuinely disagree these things are meaningless. This is a work of fiction by a single author after all, so why would that author NOT choose names that have some story meaning for him? Why choose randomness, when relevance can be embedded? He has to do some thinking ANYWAY when he chooses a name so it makes zero sense that he would deliberately spend time making something of zero importance.

This « ei » suffix is associated specifically with several Crakehalls, and vaguely with Lys - As are several of the names beginning with « Lys », a point substantially supported by the Rogare family tree.

Edited March 23 by Hippocras

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Why choose randomness, when relevance can be embedded? He has to do some thinking ANYWAY when he chooses a name so it makes zero sense that he would deliberately spend time making something of zero importance.

I agree but then we enter the 'seeing the wood for the trees' territory. Because if an author can insert meanings into names he can also divert with red herrings. Or simply, that some names have to be 'background forest' within which to hide the trees. I'm always in favour of the search, however!!

... Also, a lot of the naming peculiarities seem to be his way of adding 'fantasy flavour' to the books, e.g. the  famous Ser instead of Sir. This is not to say that he doesn't then go back to these stylistic naming patterns and decide to use them, in later books, to weave into his mysteries. I think his gardening style means that he's often as much opportunist as planner. So George might go back and find patterns in the books the same way we do, except in his case he has the authorial right to exploit these for his own ends. Not sure that even made sense. Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I'm currently barking up several ASOIAF trees of my own right now and feeling quite frazzled. There might be a long post incoming ... 

Edited March 23 by Sandy Clegg
I had a thought

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I agree but then we enter the 'seeing the wood for the trees' territory. Because if an author can insert meanings into names he can also divert with red herrings. Or simply, that some names have to be 'background forest' within which to hide the trees. I'm always in favour of the search, however!!

... Also, a lot of the naming peculiarities seem to be his way of adding 'fantasy flavour' to the books, e.g. the  famous Ser instead of Sir. This is not to say that he doesn't then go back to these stylistic naming patterns and decide to use them, in later books, to weave into his mysteries. I think his gardening style means that he's often as much opportunist as planner. So George might go back and find patterns in the books the same way we do, except in his case he has the authorial right to exploit these for his own ends. Not sure that even made sense. Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I'm currently barking up several ASOIAF trees of my own right now and feeling quite frazzled. There might be a long post incoming ... 

I agree on the red herring potential of this as well. He even shows us how it works as a red herring with Lollys's son named Tyrion but not at all a relation of Tyrion, Tywin and Cersei Frey, Jon Snow etc. (although even though not family relations, these names DO indicate allegiances and values).

And then there are names like Jeyne that are far too prolific for us to draw anything really substantial from. It is only the rarer ones that we have any chance of drawing clues from.