The Frey's - They are not all bad - who knew

[Northern Sword]

Full Disclosure. I am on team Stark and have advocated for the death and destruction of House Frey with almost every word I have written. Their betrayal of the Starks and the breaking of Guest Rite is unforgivable. Yes, yes, I know some will argue.

But that is not what this thread is for. The Frey's are most certainly not all bad, despite what I have said in the past. I am in full reread mode at this point, as I am sure many of you are as well. Something really stuck out for me when perusing The Rise of the Dragon. In light of my constant calling for Frey destruction, I ran across someone who went against my, written in stone position. So I wanted to give a respectful nod to a Frey and give credit where credit is due.

For your consideration, I nominate Lord Forrest Frey as a Loyal and Honorable man, true to his word.

Prior to The Dance, in 112 AC. The "Fool Frey" as they called him asked for the hand of the Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was obviously way out of his league and he was rejected immediately. Yet, when called upon by his King, swore to uphold Rhaenyra as Heir.

During The Dance, near 20 years later. A gallant and powerful Knight, Lord Forrest Frey proved his loyalty with action. By leading 200 Knights and 600 infantry into battle along side Lord Roderick Dustin against the Greens. This was despite the reluctance of other River Lords to commit. Meaning he led from the front(Walder should be embarrassed). Forrest Frey added his strength to Daemon Targaryen near the Gods Eye and proceeded to fight and die at the Battle by the Lakeshore, otherwise known as Fishfeed.  In the bloodiest battle of the war, a prominent Lord Frey was in the middle of it. 

Even once dead, his wife Lady Sabitha Vypren who was a ferocious warrior in her own right, took up his standard and led House Frey into battle for Rhaenyra. Goes to show the culture at the Twins was far different then it is currently.

By word and deed, both Lord Frey and his wife proved their loyalty. Earning them respect and honor. 

I'm sure there have been other examples of worthy Frey's, I just cant think of any. Is there another Frey or two that anyone can think of, that belongs in such company ?

[Alden Rothack]

3 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Full Disclosure. I am on team Stark and have advocated for the death and destruction of House Frey with almost every word I have written. Their betrayal of the Starks and the breaking of Guest Rite is unforgivable. Yes, yes, I know some will argue.

But that is not what this thread is for. The Frey's are most certainly not all bad, despite what I have said in the past. I am in full reread mode at this point, as I am sure many of you are as well. Something really stuck out for me when perusing The Rise of the Dragon. In light of my constant calling for Frey destruction, I ran across someone who went against my, written in stone position. So I wanted to give a respectful nod to a Frey and give credit where credit is due.

For your consideration, I nominate Lord Forrest Frey as a Loyal and Honorable man, true to his word.

Prior to The Dance, in 112 AC. The "Fool Frey" as they called him asked for the hand of the Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was obviously way out of his league and he was rejected immediately. Yet, when called upon by his King, swore to uphold Rhaenyra as Heir.

During The Dance, near 20 years later. A gallant and powerful Knight, Lord Forrest Frey proved his loyalty with action. By leading 200 Knights and 600 infantry into battle along side Lord Roderick Dustin against the Greens. This was despite the reluctance of other River Lords to commit. Meaning he led from the front(Walder should be embarrassed). Forrest Frey added his strength to Daemon Targaryen near the Gods Eye and proceeded to fight and die at the Battle by the Lakeshore, otherwise known as Fishfeed.  In the bloodiest battle of the war, a prominent Lord Frey was in the middle of it. 

Even once dead, his wife Lady Sabitha Vypren who was a ferocious warrior in her own right, took up his standard and led House Frey into battle for Rhaenyra. Goes to show the culture at the Twins was far different then it is currently.

By word and deed, both Lord Frey and his wife proved their loyalty. Earning them respect and honor. 

I'm sure there have been other examples of worthy Frey's, I just cant think of any. Is there another Frey or two that anyone can think of, that belongs in such company ?

I suspect most of the previous Freys would be horified at what the house has become

[astarkchoice]

Among current freys 

Perwyn, olyvar and alesander all considered too loyal to robb and had to be kept away from red wedding

Gatehouse ami...a frey whos 'friendly' to all commers

Walder rivers,hosteen and black walder at least have some rep as warriors

Jinglebell, a few of the frey women lile rosaliand of course frey by marriage genna frey/lannister

 

[Craving Peaches]

I don't think he is the nicest Frey but I do feel sorry for Merret. His life looked relatively promising (especially given the humiliation he suffered prior) and then it was all taken away from him by a stroke of bad luck and he had to suffer from debilitating pain for the rest of his life.

[James Steller]

I’m hoping that Perwyn, Olyvar, Roslin, and Alesander avoid the cruel fate which surely awaits the rest of their house. Big Walder Frey seems okay, but we’ll see. Also, Stevron Frey seemed like a decent person before he died. 

[astarkchoice]

13 hours ago, James Steller said:

I’m hoping that Perwyn, Olyvar, Roslin, and Alesander avoid the cruel fate which surely awaits the rest of their house. Big Walder Frey seems okay, but we’ll see. Also, Stevron Frey seemed like a decent person before he died. 

The  squires are too young to be fully infected by the frey toxicity yet and some the much older ones probably were brought up when old walder was less bitter and there was less freys thus less cutthroat competition.

[Alden Rothack]

31 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

The  squires are too young to be fully infected by the frey toxicity yet and some the much older ones probably were brought up when old walder was less bitter and there was less freys thus less cutthroat competition.

the problem with the freys is that 1% of them is an actual number with multiple people in it

[Hippocras]

To evaluate House Frey correctly, IMO it is really important to look at the branches separately. The children and grandchildren of Alysanne Blackwood are not the same as the children of Perra Royce. Even these sub-families are not a uniform bunch, but it certainly adds a LOT of clarity to view each wife as her own starting point.

It seems very much IMO as if most of Bethany Rosby's children are decent people. Benfrey of course participated in the Red Wedding and died for it, and it his case he may have been corrupted by his wife who came from a different branch of House Frey. His brothers Perwyn and Olyvar were both absent from the wedding, probably because they did not condone it. Neither, clearly, did Roslin herself since she spent the whole time crying.

Alesander belongs to the Crakehall branch of House Frey and was a noted absence at the wedding. Since Catelyn associates him with Perwyn and Olyvar when she thinks about the absences, chances are he is decent too, in spite of the more general character of his family branch.

Edited February 17 by Hippocras

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/17/2024 at 4:49 AM, astarkchoice said:

The  squires are too young to be fully infected by the frey toxicity yet and some the much older ones probably were brought up when old walder was less bitter and there was less freys thus less cutthroat competition.

Tell that to Little Walder who started hanging round with Ramsay.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tell that to Little Walder who started hanging round with Ramsay.

Well a littlw ramsay influence goes a long way

[Hippocras]

@Northern Sword I have always been a fan of Sabitha Frey too, though I guess she was born a Vypren (also a House that has more recently acquired a bit more nasty a reputation).

Edited February 19 by Hippocras

[Northern Sword]

On 2/17/2024 at 5:20 AM, Hippocras said:

To evaluate House Frey correctly, IMO it is really important to look at the branches separately. The children and grandchildren of Alysanne Blackwood are not the same as the children of Perra Royce. Even these sub-families are not a uniform bunch, but it certainly adds a LOT of clarity to view each wife as her own starting point.

It seems very much IMO as if most of Bethany Rosby's children are decent people. Benfrey of course participated in the Red Wedding and died for it, and it his case he may have been corrupted by his wife who came from a different branch of House Frey. His brothers Perwyn and Olyvar were both absent from the wedding, probably because they did not condone it. Neither, clearly, did Roslin herself since she spent the whole time crying.

Alesander belongs to the Crakehall branch of House Frey and was a noted absence at the wedding. Since Catelyn associates him with Perwyn and Olyvar when she thinks about the absences, chances are he is decent too, in spite of the more general character of his family branch.

Agreed. With that many families branches under one roof, there is bound to be a significant contrast in opinion. I have yet to look into each branch, but it may be time. You would think Royce or Blackwood branch members would have strongly objected to the RW. 

 

[Loose Bolt]

8 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

You would think Royce or Blackwood branch members would have strongly objected to the RW.

Actually Roose should have had same problem bc lordlings have tendency to marry children of other lordlings. So there should have been at least some people among his followers who were ordered to kill their relatives. Or those people either disobeyed those orders or they became kinslayers. 

[Hippocras]

13 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Agreed. With that many families branches under one roof, there is bound to be a significant contrast in opinion. I have yet to look into each branch, but it may be time. You would think Royce or Blackwood branch members would have strongly objected to the RW. 

 

I have wondered if there is an element of « family rejects » going on when it comes to who marries in to House Frey, or if it is just a matter of dead mothers having little power to influence their children. Both the Blackwood and Royce branches have multiple characters who participated in the Red Wedding, but both branches also include one or two who are (or might turn out to be) decent. Alysanne Blackwood and Perra Royce died long before the Wot5K and probably while their children were still quite young. It could really be just that they did not actually get to raise their children.

On the other hand, both the Blackwood family and the Royce family are relatively large and may contain factional sub-branches. So the same internal rivalries that are beginning to explode within House Frey may also be present, lower key in other families, and the ones that were married off to House Frey may have been the disfavoured 4th or 5th daughters or even suspected bastards of those families. Maybe it is not only the Frey family that will have a period of kinslaying while the ambitious try to rise via murder.

Edited February 21 by Hippocras

[Northern Sword]

@Hippocras

The overriding influence of Walder, when the mothers die would be considerable, especially to the heirs. So, the kids being more Frey(mentality) than Blackwood or Royce makes sense. Couple that with the idea of non-favored children of those other houses, being married into a powerful, yet looked down on house, could easily result in total loyalty to the House Frey. Especially when considering the prevailing attitude of the Frey's ... Don't get no respect - classic Rodney Dangerfield.

Plus, there is so damn many of them. They naturally would compete for Walder's approval. 

I'm curious as to how many heirs have married Frey's ? What are the Frey's top tier marriages ? Blackwood and Royce gotta be at or near the top.

[Hippocras]

16 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

@Hippocras

The overriding influence of Walder, when the mothers die would be considerable, especially to the heirs. So, the kids being more Frey(mentality) than Blackwood or Royce makes sense. Couple that with the idea of non-favored children of those other houses, being married into a powerful, yet looked down on house, could easily result in total loyalty to the House Frey. Especially when considering the prevailing attitude of the Frey's ... Don't get no respect - classic Rodney Dangerfield.

Plus, there is so damn many of them. They naturally would compete for Walder's approval. 

I'm curious as to how many heirs have married Frey's ? What are the Frey's top tier marriages ? Blackwood and Royce gotta be at or near the top.

House Swann is also very powerful. But it is one of the Houses with a "two-faced" symbol, which is another sigil set I have been meaning to start a thread for discussing. Just connected to House Frey the "two-faced" sigil Houses are:

Swann
Farring
Paege

And of course we know that Walder himself has earned quite a reputation for being two-faced. The fact that the Twins is actually two castles connected by a bridge (and separated by a river) is perhaps a reference to this.
 

Edited February 22 by Hippocras

[Northern Sword]

On 2/22/2024 at 2:08 AM, Hippocras said:

House Swann is also very powerful. But it is one of the Houses with a "two-faced" symbol, which is another sigil set I have been meaning to start a thread for discussing. Just connected to House Frey the "two-faced" sigil Houses are:

Swann
Farring
Paege

And of course we know that Walder himself has earned quite a reputation for being two-faced. The fact that the Twins is actually two castles connected by a bridge (and separated by a river) is perhaps a reference to this.
 

That is an interesting observation. Westeros loves their connections to a Families heraldry. So a two-faced or mirrored sigil should be telling.