Why is the North weird?

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

Why has the North never made their own order of knights, swearing their vows on the Old Gods. Why are there no other roads other than the Kingsroad? WHY ARE THERE NO SLED PULLING HUSKIES IN THE WINTER?

[The Hoare]

They managed to beat all andal conquerors 

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

7 hours ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

 Why are there no other roads other than the Kingsroad?

Winter and snow does hell to road. too costly to maintain. 

7 hours ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

WHY ARE THERE NO SLED PULLING HUSKIES IN THE WINTER?

They have the tech, we have seen wildling with it even, but they would rather use horses with snow shoes, as we have seen in Stannis's march. Some breeds of horses used in the asiatic steppes have evolved to dig into snow and eat grass to secure food. if the northern horses share this trait, it makes them easier to maintain than sled dogs, who would have to carry all their own food. Not to mention it is a status symbol. 

Northern traders and mountain clans might use these still, but not as much in war, were dogs would be in danger tethered together. If a Northerner can help it, they would have no need for a sled dog during winter, and would wait it out in their, hopefully warm, and amply supplied home. Dogs would be just another mouth to feed.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

On 4/1/2024 at 10:55 PM, The Hoare said:

They managed to beat all andal conquerors 

Yes they have, but I’m not interested in the fighting aspect of the knights. I’m more interested in the hierarchical uses of it. As a way to reward some people, rewarding someone without disgruntling someone else too much. Also as a way of making cadet branches or as a way of populating and managing the huge ass territories of the North.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

On 4/1/2024 at 11:12 PM, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

Winter and snow does hell to road. too costly to maintain. 

They have the tech, we have seen wildling with it even, but they would rather use horses with snow shoes, as we have seen in Stannis's march. Some breeds of horses used in the asiatic steppes have evolved to dig into snow and eat grass to secure food. if the northern horses share this trait, it makes them easier to maintain than sled dogs, who would have to carry all their own food. Not to mention it is a status symbol. 

Northern traders and mountain clans might use these still, but not as much in war, were dogs would be in danger tethered together. If a Northerner can help it, they would have no need for a sled dog during winter, and would wait it out in their, hopefully warm, and amply supplied home. Dogs would be just another mouth to feed.

Horses are expensive! I agree that if such a breed of horse exists in Asoiaf it would be awesome, but only for the nobles. What about the serfs? 

Edited April 3 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[House Cambodia]

On 4/2/2024 at 2:17 AM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Why has the North never made their own order of knights, swearing their vows on the Old Gods. Why are there no other roads other than the Kingsroad? WHY ARE THERE NO SLED PULLING HUSKIES IN THE WINTER?

The North has survived perfectly well all these millennia, even in the face of these new-fangled Southron Andal cultures with their unsustainable materialistic, exploitative, power-hungry attitudes that disrespect the Old Ways that lives in harmony with nature.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The North has survived perfectly well all these millennia, even in the face of these new-fangled Southron Andal cultures with their unsustainable materialistic, exploitative, power-hungry attitudes that disrespect the Old Ways that lives in harmony with nature.

One of my previous responses

29 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Yes they have, but I’m not interested in the fighting aspect of the knights. I’m more interested in the hierarchical uses of it. As a way to reward some people, rewarding someone without disgruntling someone else too much. Also as a way of making cadet branches or as a way of populating and managing the huge ass territories of the North.

 

[House Cambodia]

3 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

One of my previous responses

 

Yeah. I'm suggesting your premise is kind of like Early Modern Europeans' attitude towards indigenous cultures - 'they' need the benefit of 'our' material cultural values. The implications here involve assuming a population explosion, requiring the destruction of forest is beneficial, and encouraging a greater wealth gap. Note the chasm between the clothing and diet of the elites in the Southron societies compared to the clothing and diets of the Starks et al. The Starks live in a big-ass castle for sure, but that doubles as a defence for the whole community; their everyday lifestyles are not as different from their smallfolk compared to below The Neck.

[Alden Rothack]

On 4/1/2024 at 8:17 PM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Why has the North never made their own order of knights, swearing their vows on the Old Gods. Why are there no other roads other than the Kingsroad? WHY ARE THERE NO SLED PULLING HUSKIES IN THE WINTER?

Because they have almost no knights and because even the southron kingdoms mostly don't have them either

a better question is why the typical entourage and retinue is so small and lightly equiped.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

18 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Yeah. I'm suggesting your premise is kind of like Early Modern Europeans' attitude towards indigenous cultures - 'they' need the benefit of 'our' material cultural values. The implications here involve assuming a population explosion, requiring the destruction of forest is beneficial, and encouraging a greater wealth gap. Note the chasm between the clothing and diet of the elites in the Southron societies compared to the clothing and diets of the Starks et al. The Starks live in a big-ass castle for sure, but that doubles as a defence for the whole community; their everyday lifestyles are not as different from their smallfolk compared to below The Neck.

I would disagree. I'm not assuming a population explosion, maybe a slight population increase, but certainly not a "boom." If the Starks put a few "knightly" houses on the Stony Shore and Sea Dragon Point to manage those lands and the fisher towns there, then they wouldn't have been so blindsided when the Ironborn attacked. Well maybe they actually would be because it seems everyone was at war, but some small guarding forces would have still helped in that regard. Maybe a watchtower somewhere near the shore of Cape Kraken or on the Flint Cliffs. Also, if the current Northern nobility already don't have that much of a wealth gap between them then adding some knightly houses wouldn't make a difference. Regarding the protection of the forests, I also respect nature, but if chopping down a few trees would increase the safety of my people then so be it. Moreover, the North has some big ass forests, I don't think they will be missed that much. 

[House Cambodia]

11 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Because they have almost no knights and because even the southron kingdoms mostly don't have them either

It's a circular issue. Only knights can make knights, so if you don't have any, you can't make any. Also, knights are dedicated to the Seven. Northerners who follow the Old Gods cannot dedicate themselves to Knighthood. This in turn feeds back to my earlier point: a society that follows The Seven has division of labour and hierarchical structures. There's no division or hierarchy of Old Gods other than their shamen, i.e. Greenseers who don't wield political power.

So I say again, there's an analogy with colonialism here - The North could only adopt Southron customs by dismantling its whole thousands-year old way of life.

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

If the Starks put a few "knightly" houses on the Stony Shore and Sea Dragon Point to manage those lands and the fisher towns there, then they wouldn't have been so blindsided when the Ironborn attacked.

The only reason they were vulnerable to attack was because Robb had taken almost the whole northern fighting force down South - even Torrhen Stark hadn't done that. It was an unprecedented misjudgement.

Quote

Moreover, the North has some big ass forests, I don't think they will be missed that much. 

I think you're missing the point by bringing in a 21st century materialistic-economic perspective. Trees are integral to the Old Ways. It's where the gods live - not just in weirwoods, but in trees, forests, streams etc.

[Alden Rothack]

5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

It's a circular issue. Only knights can make knights, so if you don't have any, you can't make any. Also, knights are dedicated to the Seven. Northerners who follow the Old Gods cannot dedicate themselves to Knighthood. This in turn feeds back to my earlier point: a society that follows The Seven has division of labour and hierarchical structures. There's no division or hierarchy of Old Gods other than their shamen, i.e. Greenseers who don't wield political power.

So I say again, there's an analogy with colonialism here - The North could only adopt Southron customs by dismantling its whole thousands-year old way of life.

They don't need them, they are led just as well if not more by bonds of kinship as they would by knighthood

besides I suspect many people do swear oaths in the godswood they justr don't make a big thing about it like the southrons and their stone gods.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

The only reason they were vulnerable to attack was because Robb had taken almost the whole northern fighting force down South - even Torrhen Stark hadn't done that. It was an unprecedented misjudgement.

Except he didn't. He took 18,000 men south with him and based on the amount of men some Northern lords sent to join Stannis, it suggests that they could've raised some more men. I don't disagree that if Robb had the time then he would've taken them too, but time was of the essence. A few knights from stony shore or cape kraken would've taken too long to respond and Robb wouldn't have waited for them, or they would've responded but not with their full forces. 

 

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I think you're missing the point by bringing in a 21st century materialistic-economic perspective. Trees are integral to the Old Ways. It's where the gods live - not just in weirwoods, but in trees, forests, streams etc.

I think you missed the sentence before that one where I said 

 

1 hour ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Regarding the protection of the forests, I also respect nature, but if chopping down a few trees would increase the safety of my people then so be it.

What do you think they made houses, castles like Deepwood Motte, spears, bow's and arrows, or the grips of swords out of? And for what reason? For protection. Be it from the elements or from enemies.

Edited April 3 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

Because they have almost no knights and because even the southron kingdoms mostly don't have them either

a better question is why the typical entourage and retinue is so small and lightly equiped.

What do you mean the Southern kingdoms don't mostly have them?

 

1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said:

They don't need them, they are led just as well if not more by bonds of kinship as they would by knighthood

besides I suspect many people do swear oaths in the godswood they justr don't make a big thing about it like the southrons and their stone gods.

I don't disagree with that and I think that if even if northerners would have created their own from of knighthood then they would still be more bonded with kinship than with knighthood. I am thinking of using it as tool for managing a lot of places far from their lords and as a reward system as there are some things that would warrant knighthood that would not warrant a lordship, especially with the whole landless knight thing going on. 

[House Cambodia]

4 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

some things that would warrant knighthood that would not warrant a lordship, especially with the whole landless knight thing going on. 

"The whole landless knight thing" is not a problem in a society that has no knights! The best solution is sometimes not to create the problem in the first place. And again, the DEMAND for 'rewards' in the form of titles and status is far stronger in the South than in the North. You see that in Wildling culture and their contempt for 'kneelers'. Northerners, following the same religion as Wildlings, have as much in common with them as with Southrons and their Andal ways.

[Alden Rothack]

28 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

What do you mean the Southern kingdoms don't mostly have them?

We know of only one knightly order and its been inactive for centuries

I don't disagree with that and I think that if even if northerners would have created their own from of knighthood then they would still be more bonded with kinship than with knighthood. I am thinking of using it as tool for managing a lot of places far from their lords and as a reward system as there are some things that would warrant knighthood that would not warrant a lordship, especially with the whole landless knight thing going on. 

the thing about formal knighthood is that it grew out of pressures the north doesn't really have, the north has more land than people to manage it rather than the reverse, plus the north don't really have aristocrats to begin with or even a large middle class to be promoted into it.

certainly there will be many in the north who swear their steel to the hearth of another but unless there is reason to question their honour such as a Bolton or ironmen swearing fealty to a northern lord a formal oath before a heart tree is unlikely to be asked for or offered.

in such places the bonds of kinship run very deep.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

The only reason they were vulnerable to attack was because Robb had taken almost the whole northern fighting force down South - even Torrhen Stark hadn't done that. It was an unprecedented misjudgement.

Torrhen stark took at least 50% more men (30k vs 18-20k) south to the trident. As to the Stony Shore, there really isn't much there. It's very thinly populated to the point where the closest population center is probably Torrhen's Square.

the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together.

There is barely anyone to raid and no one to respond close by. We see Tallhart men respond to the reaving as well as march to WF. Even if you stick someone there to fill the relative power vacuum, there aren't enough resources to sustain a denser population.

[House Cambodia]

I conceded the point about Torrhen Stark - maybe I should focus on it being a brief jaunt that resulted in no loss of life. But regarding the Stoney Shore, Balon Greyjoy explicitly and opportunistically declared independence and reaved along the west coast in response to the north being depopulated by Robb. Had Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square had their usual garrisons, the IB would not have attacked. In normal times, the North had decent natural defences (and a 700' wall) north, south, east and west. It never had any need to open itself up to Southron enculturation.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I conceded the point about Torrhen Stark - maybe I should focus on it being a brief jaunt that resulted in no loss of life.

Right but the problem is that Torrhen and his lords bannermen were anticipating a loss of life. The North could've fought a guerilla war against the Targaryens just as successfully as Dorne did...if not better. Torrhen was just hoping to strike a major blow against the Targaryen forces before they could attempt to mount a proper invasion and attack on the North.

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

 But regarding the Stoney Shore, Balon Greyjoy explicitly and opportunistically declared independence and reaved along the west coast in response to the north being depopulated by Robb. Had Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square had their usual garrisons, the IB would not have attacked. In normal times, the North had decent natural defenses (and a 700' wall) north, south, east and west. It never had any need to open itself up to Southron enculturation.

This is true

Frankly, a part of me feels like the North (and especially Dorne) should have a higher population. Yes, the winters are unimaginably brutal, and a lot of people die each winter due to famine and disease; that should keep the population relatively low in the northernmost parts of the North. BUT there should still be more people living on the west coast, particularly at Sea Dragon Point where there's an abundance of otters and fish for food and clothing and trees for homes and tools. And Bear Island alone does not suffice as a west coast trading hub.