Scott Lynch's Red Seas Under Red Skies

[MuthaHydra / Lord Jo]

Just finished it yesterday . I actually read LLL straight into RSURS and I think I enjoyed it all the more for it .

I am not going to repeat loads of what other folks have said , so . I love the idea that the Parlour Passage is something to do with the Eldren , as well as it just being a great wyrd shit that happens at sea thing . I also loved the fact that whatever it was knew Locke's real name - spookarama .

I would like to take a moment to comment on Jean's awesomely lame pulling technique , the gooey evol that was the death latern and some awesome lines . I think my fave non Locke one being Zamira's , " Oh good . . . Because after that mommy needs to fetch her armour and sabres . And then she needs to go board that lying motherfucker's ship and sink it like a stone . "

The reverse burglars bit had me in stitches .

And I miss Chains .

Shagging Jean is now obviously signing your own death warrant .

Can't wait for the next one .

[Slick Mongoose]

That was the impression I got. I suspect the Bondsmagi rules are rather strict, to the letter. Internal politics is another possibility, might be some amongst the Bondsmagi that disagreed with hiring out to the Grey King.

[Slyfinger]

Just got off work and I get the call my copy of RSURS is 6 days early. I get to pick it up as soon as I get out if the shower.

How do you say it? Oh yeah, w00t.

[Caligula_K]

I loved this one. So very entertaining- in fact, I think I liked it even more than Lies. I definitely don't think Merrain is working for the Bondsmages, and speaking of which- isn't the Falconer clearly stated in the book as not being dead but merely insane?

But yes, clever and hilarious dialogue (I will now yell "THE GODS HAVE SENT YOUR DOOM, MOTHERFUCKERS" as often as I can), a fast, fun and convoluted plot, and beautifully done characterization for Locke and Jean- I really do care about these characters. Ezri's death was obvious, but it still did hit me when it came- perhaps not as much as the deaths from book 1, but a hell of a lot more than unexpected deaths from another book I read recently, due to the quality of the writing. I appreciated the Archon, who was not a typical villain at all- rather, I could sympathize with his motives, and only offer my condolences because he fucked with the gentleman bastards.

And I do wonder what this poison bodes for Locke in the future... I think it is real, as it'd feel like a cop out of sorts if it were not.

My only complaint is the prologue- I hate prologues that take you into the middle of the book for a start, but it was so obvious the whole time that Jean would never betray Locke and that the whole thing was a ruse (pretty out of character for Locke to suspect Jean, too). Weak way too build suspense in a book that didn't need any more suspense built.

Would Republic of Thieves be slated for a next summer release, by any chance?

[oneeye]

I like it so far, but LOLL seemed better. seems lacking in interesting female characters as usual, but I think the worst thing, which wasn't so noticeable in the first book, is that all of locke and jeans opponents are the same smart cynical bastards.

they all blend in a haze of similiar increasingly irritating personalities.

kind of reminds me of eddings tamuli where all the knights were Silk clones.

[mormont]

Lacking in interesting female characters? There are far more female characters in RSURS than in LOLL, so I take it that this is a criticism of the ones that exist rather than a complaint about the dearth of female characters?

[williamjm]

My only complaint is the prologue- I hate prologues that take you into the middle of the book for a start, but it was so obvious the whole time that Jean would never betray Locke and that the whole thing was a ruse (pretty out of character for Locke to suspect Jean, too). Weak way too build suspense in a book that didn't need any more suspense built.

Would Republic of Thieves be slated for a next summer release, by any chance?

[oneeye]

despite all it's still the cleverest thief series ever.

[Vethnar]

The prologue did seem a bit pointless - it didn't really build up any suspense because it was obvious Jean wasn't going to betray Locke.

[Caligula_K]

Obvious? I am not so sure. It was obvious that Jean wasn't going to willingly betray Locke, but don't forget the bondsmagi. Jean even says himself that he is a potential danger to Locke:

I agree that the prologue by itself didn't build up much suspense, but the prologue together with the above passage (which appears near the beginning of the book) build up a lot of suspense, IMHO.

[delete this account pls]

I thought RSURS was the opposite of lacjking in female characters. Women seemed to be everywhere in this one. For example I don't think a single city watchman or soldier was a woman in LOLL, whereas RSURS was filled with women warriors. Off the top of my head there was; Zamira, Ezri, Scholar Treganne and several other crerwmembers of the Poison Orchid, Merrain, the city watchwoman that Jean bribes in Vel Virazzo, the ruler of Salon Corbeua, Selendri, the two women gamblers that Locke and Jean beat at Carousel Hazard, the renegade naval captain that first sparked the War for Recognition, two of the four other pirate captains at Port Prodigal, several of the Archon's Eyes, the familyof the chairmaker in Salon Corbeau, and the expert Artificer Jean visits in one of the flashbacks. In short, a hell of a lot mroe than LOLL which only had Nazca, the Berangais sisters, the Spider and Dona Sofia.

[Samalander]

despite all it's still the cleverest thief series ever.

[Mad Queen]

I think I must be the only one who loved LoLL but didn't like RSURS. My worst complaint is the women. Do they all take alchemical testosterone or what? A very short woman fighting a lot of strong men and winning? Punching men twice her height and weight? Please. Maybe in Scott's universe women are different, but it felt very unnatural to me. There are better ways to write strong female characters. Make them like Sofia, an excellent alchemist, or that other woman that dropped Jean out of her house. Or like Brienne, who is certainly not your average woman, she is one in a million. She is special because there is only one like her in ASoIaF. Please drop the women-with-balls theme. We women do know what our own strengths and weaknesses are.

And I knew that Ezri was already dead from the start. A shallow character (like Calo and Galdo and Bug), ready to be thrown away, because she couldn't be allowed to separate the Gentlemen Bastards. It wasn't interesting. Her death wasn't even remotely dramatic. The plot was too convoluted. Too many different parties. Requin. The Archon. Merrain. The Bondsmagi. The "good" pirates. The pirates that betrayed them. The Priori. Salon Corbeau was completely unnecessary. By the way it was obvious that the assassins were sent by the Priori and that the alchemist was the key. Locke should have employed his brains to kidnap him straight away. Why go to sea? Sometimes Locke is too meek. Wasn't he richer and cleverer than everyone else? He often forgot it. In LoLL it was the Grey King and in Red Seas, the Archon. In both cases it was too late when he found out that he shouldn't have obeyed them.

Overall an annoying book. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if Scott had kept to a few characters and made them really good. And less pirates with a literary bent.

[Guest Ser Jaime]

I just picked up my copy today. Can't wait to start reading it.

[oneeye]

I kinda like Ezri though, but well put Mad Queen.

[mormont]

I think I must be the only one who loved LoLL but didn't like RSURS. My worst complaint is the women. Do they all take alchemical testosterone or what? A very short woman fighting a lot of strong men and winning? Punching men twice her height and weight? Please. Maybe in Scott's universe women are different, but it felt very unnatural to me. There are better ways to write strong female characters. Make them like Sofia, an excellent alchemist, or that other woman that dropped Jean out of her house. Or like Brienne, who is certainly not your average woman, she is one in a million. She is special because there is only one like her in ASoIaF. Please drop the women-with-balls theme. We women do know what our own strengths and weaknesses are.

That's one character, and in fairness she has apparently had training (and the author specifically shows us she cannot win in a contest of pure strength). In any case it's nothing you don't find in most fantasy novels - in fact it's probably better depicted in RSURS than in Erikson, for example. And it is done for a specific reason - to match her with Jean. Finally, Brienne is a poor comparison, because neither RSURS nor LLL are as 'realistic' in tone as ASOIAF - the vibe is very different thoughout both books. Even Jean's martial and physical feats are as unrealistic as Ezri's, really, and would stick out like a sore thumb in ASOIAF, to say nothing of the boys' 'unnatural' amounts of learning and expertise.

And even if you don't like Ezri, great women characters abound in RSURS - Drakasha being a classic example.

The plot was too convoluted. Too many different parties. Requin. The Archon. Merrain. The Bondsmagi. The "good" pirates. The pirates that betrayed them. The Priori.

The plot wasn't any more complex than in LLL, as far as I can see. I had no difficulty following it at any point, not even with the layered identities the GBs were forced into. As for the number of factions, that was handled rather well. The Priori are kept more or less out of it until the end, when the pirates were already out of the reckoning. The Bondsmagi are almost incidental to the plot. You can't really count Merrain as an independent party, since she only takes two independent actions in the whole book, one of them right at the end.

Salon Corbeau was completely unnecessary. By the way it was obvious that the assassins were sent by the Priori and that the alchemist was the key.

Of all the people I know who've read this book, you are the only one to feel that the source of the assassins was obvious. Sometimes, what's obvious to one person is not to others. *shrugs*

Salon Corbeau was absolutely necessary, by the way. It fulfils several functions - as well as what Locke uses it for, it's a practical demonstration of the philosophy of the Thirteenth and the fact that Locke and Jean have a moral sense, and have higher goals than being 'richer and cleverer than everybody else'. It also fulfils a role in the structure and pacing of the novel (there are sections like this in LLL, but unlike Salon Corbeau they have no connection to the main plot at all).

Locke should have employed his brains to kidnap him straight away. Why go to sea? Sometimes Locke is too meek. Wasn't he richer and cleverer than everyone else? He often forgot it. In LoLL it was the Grey King and in Red Seas, the Archon. In both cases it was too late when he found out that he shouldn't have obeyed them.

In both cases Locke knew he shouldn't have obeyed them but was given no choice.

Overall an annoying book. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if Scott had kept to a few characters and made them really good. And less pirates with a literary bent.

It's always the readers' prerogative to prefer a hypothetical book to the one that was actually written. But it's as pointless, as comparing ideals to reality always is.

[Mad Queen]

Even Jean's martial and physical feats are as unrealistic as Ezri's, really, and would stick out like a sore thumb in ASOIAF, to say nothing of the boys' 'unnatural' amounts of learning and expertise.

[mormont]

I think they shouldn't have known how to cook like international chefs, but Jean's physical feats are not so unrealistic.

Oh, they are. Going by the weapon skills he displays, Jean would beat Jaime Lannister and the Hound into pulp. (And that's despite the considerable handicap of being short-sighted.) Are these skills as unrealistic as, say, the levels of sword mastery in Erikson? No, nothing like: any of the major characers in Erikson or even Abercrombie would in turn mince Jean. They are, however, in keeping with the level of realism in both LLL and RSURS, which is much lower than ASOIAF.

But Ezri is just annoying. I was enjoying the book a lot more before all those female pirates were introduced. I think this is what really spoiled my reading. The rest are just minor offenses. So everything I wrote below is a lot less important than Ezri and her clones being extremely annoying....I can't see any difference between Ezri and Drakasha, except that Drakasha was older and had children.

If you find Drakasha to be a clone of Ezri, I think I really am going to struggle to convince you of anything, as being female and being a pirate are about the only two things they have in common.

In LLL, the Gentlemen Bastards were conning the Salvaras and at the same time had to deal with Capa Barsavi. So far things were at their usual level of complication. Then we were introduced to Grey King and Falconer, from one side, and the Spider, from another. These two were the complicating factors. In RSURS, they were initially dealing with Requin. Then the Bondsmagi threatened them. The Archon made contact. They met "good" pirates, were betrayed by the "bad" pirates. The Priori tried to kill them. The mysterious Merrain. Eliminate the bad pirates and the Priori and it would have been OK for me.

So there was exactly one minor sub-plot and one background plot thread too many? Blimey, your standards are pretty rigidly defined. ;)

Besides, as far as I can see the basic plot structure is actually pretty similar - the con (Salvaras/Requin), plus a struggle between two factions where one tries to use the GBs as tools (Barsavi vs the Grey King/the Archon vs the pirates) which a third party takes advantage of (the Spider/the Priori).

Merrain and the Bondsmagi aren't even really part of the plot of RSURS - they're part of the metaplot of the series. Their involvement is minor, and balanced by keeping the Priori in the background (compared to the Spider).

I never figured R + L = J on my own, but in this case wasn't it obvious? The Archon was using Locke and Jean against the Priori. Who could have wanted them dead? The Priori. It was my first bet. And it was particularly clear because the Priori would have to be introduced sooner or later.

Well, maybe I'm a bit thick, but absent any indication that the Priori even knew Jean and Locke existed (let alone were being used as tools by Stragos) I was assuming that Stragos' efforts to keep his plan secret had succeeded. I therefore didn't consider them, really. But then, like everyone else I know I read the book so damn fast I hadn't much time for reflection. ;)

In Salon Corbeau, the rich were humiliating the poor. How was that against the philosophy of the Thirteenth? We already knew that the Gentlemen Bastards preferred stealing from the rich. The "chess pieces" weren't even thieves.

It's not 'thieves prosper', but 'the rich remember' I'm talking about. Salon Corbeau was an embodiment of the reasons behind that precept: the rich, because they are rich, come to think of themselves as better, of their status as being the natural order of things. That was what made Salon Corbeau possible: that's why the rich feel able to humiliate the poor. Locke's raid is a demonstration of why the Crooked Warden wants to make 'the rich remember', and what he wants them to remember.

He was never given any choice; he created himself a choice when he really wanted to. Tell me why he couldn't have adapted his plans from the end to work before the voyage. Maybe a lot of people have to die before he wakes up and starts using his skills against his enemies.

This is the same in both books, though.

[Calibandar]

Mad Queen

But Ezri is just annoying. I was enjoying the book a lot more before all those female pirates were introduced. I think this is what really spoiled my reading.

[Mauvka]

I pretty much agree with you Mormont, just one minor quibble:

Oh, they are. Going by the weapon skills he displays, Jean would beat Jaime Lannister and the Hound into pulp. (And that's despite the considerable handicap of being short-sighted.)