Scott Lynch's Red Seas Under Red Skies

[Mad Queen]

Oh, they are. Going by the weapon skills he displays, Jean would beat Jaime Lannister and the Hound into pulp. (And that's despite the considerable handicap of being short-sighted.)

[Bronn Stone]

This is exactly why I said that we already knew that the Gentlemen Bastards stole from the rich. Chains had already explained that the nobles of Camorr deserved to be conned because of the secret peace.

[Arwyl]

We're not getting the book here till end of September. Bummer. I've been calling my local bookstore every week, asking if my order's in, and they told me end of September. Gah.

Any chance anyone has a PDF of it? I'll still buy the book (and re-read when it gets here), I'm just so desperate right now. I got GRRM's RRetrospective this weekend, but I couldn't concentrate on it because my mind was on Locke and Jean's next adventure. Gah. :(

[Fantasy Book Critic]

Well I finally posted my review of "Red Seas Under Red Skies". Here's the short version: Loved the first third or so of the book...thought the story waned a bit when it shifted to the open seas...picked up again toward the end, and finished quite nicely. Definitely a better written and more ambitious novel compared to "The Lies of Locke Lamora", but I think I liked the debut a tiny bit more, especially the latter half of the book, which I thought was much more intense. I also thought the villains were better in the debut. All in all, a very strong follow-up and I'll definitely be checking out future Gentleman Bastard installments...

HERE's the long version if anyone is interested... Thanks and much love & respect.

Robert

[kmgrey]

Finished this last night and while I hesitate to call it a disappointment because I really did enjoy RSURS, I think LoLL was a much, much better novel. Red Seas seemed to lack bite- tonally it was almost PG-13 compared to the hard R of the original. I thought Ezri was a poor character that never gelled as someone who I really believed would be first mate on a pirate galley. My issue might be because we mainly see her through interactions with Jean where they are lovey-dovey to the point of obnoxiousness but her character rang false throughout.

And, man, could Lynch have painted a bigger target on a character than Ezri? I was very disappointed that Lynch took such an obvious and predictable path there. The deaths in the first one were brutal and surprising but that wasn't the case here. The pirate "betrayer" was also incredibly predictable too- when he was so obviously friendly in his first scene in the pub it was obvious Lynch was setting him up to be a bad guy.

Didn't really care for Zemri having kids onboard either. I liked her character otherwise but having little tykes running around along with Emzri's characterization made it feel more like Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean than the gritty and tough pirates I would expect based on the rest of Lynch's world. IIRC the only time they kill an "innocent" is when Zemri crossbows the guard on the yacht in Salon Corbeau and even there Lynch goes out his way to show that guard asking her for sexual favors as a gesture that he had it coming.

Having Cordo turn out to be behind the attempted assassinations was awful plotting- not so much because it didn't make sense for the Priori to be behind the attempts but because it was just sheer dumb luck that Locke and Jean were there. It came off as Lynch trying to close-out a plot point way too quickly. The rest of that final scenario was ace though.

Part of the issue for me is that Lynch killed off so much of the supporting cast in the first book that there was really only Locke and Jean coming into this one and I'm not sure he really did a very good job rebuilding it. The only new character in this one that I look forward to seeing in the future is Merrain though I wouldn't mind Zemri too much.

I'm not trying to be too negative because I really did enjoy it but I can't help but feeling this was a step back in almost every respect from the first novel with the exception of Locke and Jean's characterization which was really well done. However, I do think Lynch did a great job setting up the next installment. Republic of Thieves looks to be very intriguing.

[AverageGuy]

Finished it a couple days ago. Liked it.

I felt very proud of myself first for figuring out how Jean and Locke were going to win the first card game before the woman passed out and second for figuring out that they were after the art instead of the vault. I kicked myself for thinking that the new spiders of Camorr were sending the assassins instead of the Priori; in retrospect it's obvious that the Priori, being as powerful as they supposedly are, would be in on the game, but there were so few mentions of them before that I never really considered them. I stopped thinking it was the Spiders when Locke and Jean first came back to the Sinspire after being at sea; Selendri called Jean "Valora" instead of "De Ferra" (pg. 455 US HC) despite the fact she had never heard of Valora. I spent the next hundred pages or so wondering why she was sending assassins instead of just kicking Locke off the balcony, and it turned out to be a misprint :mad: I also kicked myself for thinking Merain must have been under the Priori's orders once it was revealed they were behind the assassins, too quick to judge.

Disliked: Drakasha and Ezri seemed sort of shallow - strong women, sure, but standard unremarkable warrior woman types - though it wasn't too bad because they obviously weren't meant to stick around. Actually, Drakasha seemed more fleshed out, but we saw her less than Ezri, which is understandable, but disappointing. Being at sea started to feel kind of drawn out. Overall, though, I enjoyed it, and I find myself looking forward to the next book. I'm wondering how Locke manages to get out of being poisoned (I'm thinking some Bondsmage may make him an offer). I'm also wondering when we'll see Trav of Vo Sarmara again.

[oneeye]

somehow i felt unworried about locke being poisoned.

I mean locke is the pov for about 90% of the books, how could he even die?

It wasn't like the arya blindness at all.

[Mr. X]

"The Gods have sent your doom, MOTHERFUCKERS!" :rofl:

[RedEyedGhost]

Actually, Jean is "near-blind" or what would normally be called far-sighted--which is not so much of a handicap in combat I would think.

[Decius]

Actually, hyperopes (far-sighted people) tend to have worse depth perception than other people - especially without their corrective lenses (and even with them). Though, I really doubt that Scott would know this - unless he is hyperopic and it was explained to him by his optometrist...

[Black Dow]

I think I must be the only one who loved LoLL but didn't like RSURS. My worst complaint is the women. Do they all take alchemical testosterone or what? A very short woman fighting a lot of strong men and winning? Punching men twice her height and weight? Please. Maybe in Scott's universe women are different, but it felt very unnatural to me. There are better ways to write strong female characters. Make them like Sofia, an excellent alchemist, or that other woman that dropped Jean out of her house. Or like Brienne, who is certainly not your average woman, she is one in a million. She is special because there is only one like her in ASoIaF. Please drop the women-with-balls theme. We women do know what our own strengths and weaknesses are.

And I knew that Ezri was already dead from the start. A shallow character (like Calo and Galdo and Bug), ready to be thrown away, because she couldn't be allowed to separate the Gentlemen Bastards. It wasn't interesting. Her death wasn't even remotely dramatic. The plot was too convoluted. Too many different parties. Requin. The Archon. Merrain. The Bondsmagi. The "good" pirates. The pirates that betrayed them. The Priori. Salon Corbeau was completely unnecessary. By the way it was obvious that the assassins were sent by the Priori and that the alchemist was the key. Locke should have employed his brains to kidnap him straight away. Why go to sea? Sometimes Locke is too meek. Wasn't he richer and cleverer than everyone else? He often forgot it. In LoLL it was the Grey King and in Red Seas, the Archon. In both cases it was too late when he found out that he shouldn't have obeyed them.

Overall an annoying book. I would have enjoyed it a lot more if Scott had kept to a few characters and made them really good. And less pirates with a literary bent.

[Guest Ser Jaime]

Based on the short descriptions on Lynch's website, it sounds like future books will veer more heavily into the world of warfare and espionage, and away from traditional capers.

[Ahimsa]

Glad to see some other people did not like Ezri either. It got to the point where I was expecting her to tug her ponytail and tell Rand Al'thor he knew nothing about women. :)

I felt the whole sea angle was tacked on. When I started reading it, I was pleased to see a fantastical version of Las Vegas. What a great idea. However, there have been a thousand pirate stories before and when the story veered that way it seemed familiar territory. As I was reading it, I became convinced too that the plotline wouldn't wrap up in this book, just by looking at how many pages where left in the book. The climax was seriously rushed.

And there were several sections where it seemed the author went way out of his way to demonstrate how moral his two immoral characters are. I get it. It's uneccessary though--like making Greedo shoot first in Star Wars. I like Han even when he shoots first. I like Locke Lamora even when he isn't consumed with self-righteous anger at decadent nobles.

Considering the direction of the first book I thought it was focused on less moral characters than normal. Maybe not as amoral as, say, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, but at least Vlad taltos level.

So I was dissapointed. I did stay up til 4 am last night reading it though, so perhaps I'm really being unfair. It was just good enough that I wish it had been a lot better.

Still I liked it. But it was just dissapointing after how good the debut was.

[Joanna vander Poele]

Bought, read, finished it in one day. Overall, good work. :)

I also thought the prologue was rather annoying and should have been cut out, but then again I genuinely believed Jean was going to screw over Locke. Alas. :rolleyes:

I didn't like Ezri and was sort of glad when she died. I saw the romance coming as soon as Jean and she had that convo. about fighting and finished each other's sentences. :ack: I also thought sharing the literature was overdone and way too goopy.

Salon Corbeau was just awful... literally, awful. It's good to see the nasty torture back. This is just as bad as Sage Kindness in the first book.

I liked Drakasha very much and thought Cosetta wanting to be King of the Seven Marrows adorable. I do think we'll see old Zamira again, hopefully.

The Priori were brought in a little too late, I thought. It seemed like a quick deus ex machina to finish a plot and it was very convenient that Cordo happened to be the guy Locke and Jean needed to find.

Book was tremendously funny, I cracked up all the time. Jean and Locke in Vel Virazzo rang a little bitchy old married couple at times, especially when Jean ragged at Locke for doing nothing and drinking all the time. Great fun.

Also, my favourite quote in the entire book, possibly missing a few words:

"Maxilan, darling." Locke raised an eyebrow and smiled. "I knew you were driven, but I had no idea you could smoulder. Take me now! Jean won't mind - he'll avert his eyes like a gentleman."

[Happy Ent]

Finished it last night.

From an arboreal perspective, there is not much to like. As usual, the focus is on mammals. There is some honest adoration for witchwood, and a good description of different types of wood in connection with Locke's visit to the artisan in Salon Corbeau. On the other hand, the book's positive description of a family of carpenters made me somewhat uneasy. I thought society had evolved past that point.

Like many others, I was put off by the female fighters and the friendly pirates. It is morally difficult to write a story where criminals are the good guys, and even though it kind-of-works with thieves, I have big problems with pirates. Here and in Pirates of the Carribbean. Lynch needs to establish the moral depravity of every single person Zamira's posse kills on-screen, and it feels really forced. What if the ship's guard at Salon Corbeau had turned out to be just a friendly father of four, or maybe a homosexual? There are too many decisions that are made morally easy by authorial fiat, and I think that is a shame. The pirates of the Poison Orchid could have been a lot more callous, and that could have given Ezri a believable reason to leave them for a future with the Gentlemen Bastards, and that in turn could have had us believe she had a future with Jean at least for a while, and then her death could have been painful.

As some others, I really, really like the Archon. He think he was a Good Guy, and that could have been expanded on. (Which again would have given us an interesting moral problem.)

Structural problems: the Sinspire games falls off our radar during the middle part of the book. Could this have been kept "alive" in our minds by some more flashbacks? By interleaving the chapters containing the storylines from before and after the first visit with the Archon?

I had hoped that Locke is now dead. That would have been a really bold ending. But from reading this thread, nobody else seems to believe that. Do you all know more than I do?

Writing is good to smashing. Dialogue is great. Still a problem: everybody is extremely quotable. There ought to be different character voices. Lynch has the balls to experiment (there is even a chapter in present tense), and even though not everything works (I am sometimes confused about in whose head I am) he has style. His joy of storytelling oozes off every page.

The relationship between Jean and Locke was very well done. Jean became a bit more boring during the latter half of the book, but I thought that was fine.

All in all a great read. The "suspension-of-disbelief" problems (female fighters, good pirates) I can shrug off by saying "It's escapist fantasy." I prefer grit and moral dilemmas, but that's a matter of personal opinion that isn't a valid criticism.

[pat5150]

Just wanted to tell you guys that the Lynch interview is in! :D Scott Asked me to wait before posting it, for some details about the novellas must be sorted out before it goes live. I should post it on the blog in a few days. . . ;)

Patrick

[MajorMajor]

Just wanted to tell you guys that the Lynch interview is in! :D Scott Asked me to wait before posting it, for some details about the novellas must be sorted out before it goes live. I should post it on the blog in a few days. . . ;)

Patrick

:thumbsup:

Been waiting a while, Pat!

[Muttering Bill]

I finished this one a few days ago, and I liked it a lot better than TLoLL. First of all it was MUCH less predictable than Lies. The only plot twist that suprised me in Lies was the deaths of Calo, Galdo and Bug. While this one did have it's obvious points (Priori's assasins), it did leave me wondering a bit more about the direction.

Yes, the pirate scenes were very PotC. Locke put on a great impersonation of Jack Sparrow. The pirate school chapter was dull as anything, but once they hit the seas I found it mostly enjoyable. It was amusing to see Locke get screwed so badly, and fail so miserably in his acting. And Lynch had me well convinced that he'd put in a lot of research, throwing nautical terms about as he did. Of course, I don't know anything about it, and he wrote it confidently enough to fool me.

I also thought Requin was a great character. On the one hand, it was good to see someone beat Locke so thoroughly. But on the other, we've already seen him lose a fortune. I'd rather have seen them get paid, and buy a new supply of costumes. Or if he's trying to move away form con-games, let them buy their titles and wreak havok as nobles. Then we might see a Requin/Spider team make trouble for the pair later.

Some things I disliked:

Ezri's death. Not that I was too attached to the character. As has been said before, she so obviously had it coming that he should have let her live just to prove us all wrong.

The Priori was a shit plot point all around. He gives nothing but a few mentions through the whole book, and just pulls them out at the end to clean everything up. It was cheap and sloppy. I would have expected the Priori to make their move on Stragos politically. Not to just dress up as Eyes and jump out yelling "BOO!"

The rivalry between Stragos and Requin could have been better exploited. Here's where he should have pulled in the Priori.

It would have been great to find out in the end that the poison was fake. Making them run around causing trouble and worrying about falling over dead, all for nothing, would have been a grand joke. Or if he really wants Locke poisoned for some future plans, then make the antidote the poison. Tricked into drinking it, not just some undetectable paint in their cups.

Salon Corbeau. I would have liked to see him leave this for a future book. Show us now that Locke is pissed off about them, then make a more elaborate game to bring them down. All that business about how the Thorn could crush them, just wait... And then cop out with a pirate attack. There were only a hundred pirates! Surely a city would have enough guards to drive them off.

My major problem with Lynch is still his use of profanities. Not that I mind an author throwing a curse out evey now and again. In fact, it's nice to see a fantasy author being so bold with his language. At times it can be very effective. And it's much preferable to making up imaginary ones. Still, it seems a little overdone. In Lies he tossed out so many that got silly. I cringed over several scenes because of it. Yeah, I get it. You're the yound kid on the scene. You're going to write "fuck" on every page, just because you can. That'll show "the man." It just comes off as a little... juevenile. RSURS was a little better in that respect, but he's still hasn't quite learned how to not overdo it.

Overall I still enjoyed it. I don't read a lot of pirate books, so that was a nice change of pace for me. I found it a step up from TLoLL; a little more elaborate, and a little more suspenseful.

[williamjm]

Yes, the pirate scenes were very PotC. Locke put on a great impersonation of Jack Sparrow.

It was a bit Sparrow-ish. Locke was without doubt the worst pirate I'd heard of... but I had heard of him ;)

Salon Corbeau. I would have liked to see him leave this for a future book. Show us now that Locke is pissed off about them, then make a more elaborate game to bring them down. All that business about how the Thorn could crush them, just wait... And then cop out with a pirate attack. There were only a hundred pirates! Surely a city would have enough guards to drive them off.

It isn't a city, I think it's just a fairly small town and wealthy noble's estate.

[delete this account pls]

I had hoped that Locke is now dead. That would have been a really bold ending. But from reading this thread, nobody else seems to believe that. Do you all know more than I do?

I think the poison is real and will kill Locke eventually if he doesn't do something about it. That's why I think Sabetha appears in the next book - Locke thinks he's dying so he goes to find her and say goodbye.

But between Bondsmagi and black alchemists, I doubt that Locke will actually die anytime soon. He'll get out of it somehow.