College Football 2007

[dornish prince]

That the SEC is overrated by the national media and the Pac 10 underrated mostly because the media chooses to disregard the conferences pathetic scheduling practices is a bedrock foundation of every comment I make.

despite the fact, that the media consists of mainly pro big 10 and pro pac 10 writers and bias and they STILL give respect to the sec for being the best conference in ncaa football is a foundation i feel comfortable falling back on.

[dornish prince]

Bah...shouldn't have posted the list. I can hear the 'no respect' talk starting already. Can't argue where they put ND though. (47). They will be weak this year with a suicidal early schedule to go along with it. About the worst thing you can do with a young, inexperienced team.

i just wanted something to help support my argument. and foxsports is only one of many ranking "experts".

i really believe that ND is gonna nose dive this year.

[Bronn Stone]

i just wanted something to help support my argument. and foxsports is only one of many ranking "experts".

i really believe that ND is gonna nose dive this year.

I remember talking with someone last year. Even though both have tough schedules, I think Washington (and Willingham) will have a better year than Notre Dame. Or at the very least, they'll be close.

[dornish prince]

I remember talking with someone last year. Even though both have tough schedules, I think Washington (and Willingham) will have a better year than Notre Dame. Or at the very least, they'll be close.

i looked through some info on washington, after you corrected me earlier and they do look to field a fairly decent team this year.

i agree with you 100 percent on that. i wouldn't be surprised at all if washington ended up with a better record. that would be just what the doctor ordered for willingham.

[Bronn Stone]

despite the fact, that the media consists of mainly pro big 10 and pro pac 10 writers and bias and they STILL give respect to the sec for being the best conference in ncaa football is a foundation i feel comfortable falling back on.

There is very little national media based on the West Coast. I am utterly stunned that anyone can feel the media is pro Pac 10.

[maize]

They will be weak this year with a suicidal early schedule to go along with it. About the worst thing you can do with a young, inexperienced team.

i really believe that ND is gonna nose dive this year.

Yeah, they're win-losses will take a dip, but I agree, that can be said for any young, rebuilding team taking on a tough schedule.

But based on ND's recruiting this year and the past couple, along with the coaching upgrades, they should be primed for a NC run in '09 and '10... Which should coincide with Ryan Malletts junior and senior years....

[H von T]

There is very little national media based on the West Coast. I am utterly stunned that anyone can feel the media is pro Pac 10.

As an SEC guy in Oregon I see the west coast media and sports fans as being more focused on pro sports. Portland talk radio does talk some college sports, but maybe for an hour a day during football season. In SEC markets they talk college football everyday of the year. I think this leaks into the national perception. All west coast sports teams get slighted to one degree or another.

I hate to agree with you on SEC scheduling. We do schedule too many directional schools. I've been real disappointed in Florida's scheduling since the addition of the 12th game. This year is a joke, but at least next year it's Hawaii, Miami, and FSU. Georgia, LSU, and Auburn have done a good job scheduling wise IMO.

[King Mudd]

I think the SEC and the Pac 10 are the two best conferences, but I think there is definitely a gap between the SEC and the Pac 10. But I go to a University where the number #1 goal is mythical national championship (seriously). But anyway, its stupid to argue over this. I mean yeah, the SEC rarely travels outside of the south, and thus do not have to face tough OOC road games too often, but at the same time we played @ Auburn, @ Florida, @ Tennessee, and @ Arkansas last year. If we had any real goals at ending high in the polls we'd be insane to schedule a tough OOC game. We had a couple of supposedly semi-decent OOC teams come to Tiger Stadium and we beat the fuck out of them (Arizona and Fresno State).

[Mike]

But based on ND's recruiting this year and the past couple, along with the coaching upgrades, they should be primed for a NC run in '09 and '10... Which should coincide with Ryan Malletts junior and senior years....

And Jimmy Clausen's as well. I smell a "game of the century" brewing.

And may I be the first to say, I hope you guys beat the fuck out of them. Not that I dislike Notre Dame, I'm just not a big fan of the Clausen's; they just come off like douches.

[Bronn Stone]

I think the SEC and the Pac 10 are the two best conferences, but I think there is definitely a gap between the SEC and the Pac 10. But I go to a University where the number #1 goal is mythical national championship (seriously). But anyway, its stupid to argue over this. I mean yeah, the SEC rarely travels outside of the south, and thus do not have to face tough OOC road games too often, but at the same time we played @ Auburn, @ Florida, @ Tennessee, and @ Arkansas last year. If we had any real goals at ending high in the polls we'd be insane to schedule a tough OOC game. We had a couple of supposedly semi-decent OOC teams come to Tiger Stadium and we beat the fuck out of them (Arizona and Fresno State).

I'd say that I believe that the gap between the bottom 5 teams of the SEC and the bottom 5 teams of the Pac 10 is greater (and in the favor of the Pac) than the gap between the top 5 teams of the SEC and the top 5 teams of the Pac 10.

Which then is the strongest conference? If your criteria is chances to win championships, then I'd say that both of these stats work in favor of the SEC. The weakness of the weaklings AND the strength of the big dogs.

[Kalbear]

Also, after the last few seasons of the argument I've firmly come around to the SEC being the best conference, hands down. Between the quality of the players that come out, the tendency towards better bowl records (especially at higher levels) and the fact that SEC crowds are insanely awesome, I've finally stopped arguing for it.

The Pac-10 may be #2, but I think there's a fairly big gulf between them most years.

And no, this isn't an argument; this is just an observation of where they are.

[Arakasi]

I would agree with Kal as well. SEC is tops, then Pac 10, then well it depends. But SEC has a higher top end than the other conferences which just makes it better on usual. You have your OU/UT, or your USC/one other, or your UM/OSU, but with the SEC its often 3 teams at the top and occasionally even 4. Add in there that the middle part is a bit better too. Sure you can have TT, Nebraska, etc. But SEC constantly has a mid tier of 5-6 good teams while other conferences are lucky to have 4.

But what do I know, I'm a stupid imbecile who lacks common sense.

[Bronn Stone]

Also, after the last few seasons of the argument I've firmly come around to the SEC being the best conference, hands down. Between the quality of the players that come out, the tendency towards better bowl records (especially at higher levels) and the fact that SEC crowds are insanely awesome, I've finally stopped arguing for it.

The Pac-10 may be #2, but I think there's a fairly big gulf between them most years.

And no, this isn't an argument; this is just an observation of where they are.

I can see where this argument comes from. But I also think that if you took the talent in the Pac 10 and concentrated it on half the teams, the gap would be a LOT smaller (if at all). And that half the teams in the SEC have 98% of the talent. Which is why I continue to believe that the bottom half of the Pac 10 is much stronger than its SEC counterparts. Not a lot of debate on the top half (though I do think USC would be the favorite if the two leagues somehow combined).

The Pac 10 has a lack of 'basket case programs'. Since 1990, every school in the Pac 10 has either represented the conference in the Rose Bowl or finished in the national top 10. No other conference can touch that level of balance. You have to go back a long, long time for many SEC programs before you can find a team that either won the league or finished in the top 10 nationally.

[maize]

Well, a couple of years ago, the ACC had about 12~14 players selected in the first round, although the league in general was on the downswing. Let's see how the next few years pan out.

And may I be the first to say, I hope you guys beat the fuck out of them. Not that I dislike Notre Dame, I'm just not a big fan of the Clausen's; they just come off like douches.

Haha, thanks. If we do in fact play for all the marbles the papers should have a field day with the headlines. "Cali Golden Boy" against the "Texas Gunslinger!!".

But what do I know, I'm a stupid imbecile who lacks common sense.

Very good, acknowledging the existence of a problem is always the first step to recovery.

[HokieStone]

Let me step up to the plate and defend the ACC a little bit. Alright, I can't defend last season, but I can defend the long term outlook. VT & Miami have only been in the conference for 3 years, BC for 2 - it's a little early to say things like "The ACC should stick to basketball". Miami and FSU will bounce back, I think it's inevitable - way too much talent not too. VT should probably hold steady for the foreseeable future (i.e. finish the season ranked in the 5 - 15 range - hopefully (please God) a little higher). GT may actually be better without Calvin Johnson and Reggie Ball. Especially Reggie Ball. Clemson has been hovering at the Top-10 door for some time now, and NCST and UNC have new coaches that should be marked improvement from their recent past. Maryland is a bit of an enigma - the Fridge had a promising start, but he was using another guys recruits then. They seem to have leveled off in the 6 - 8 wins per year area. I haven't given up the Fridge can turn it back around - but the clock is ticking. BC - another enigma. Tom O'Brien brought them 8-9 wins and a Car Care Bowl every year - but now he's at NCST. How will the next coaching staff do? I think they'll fall a little, and be in the 6-8 wins per year category. UVA - God bless Al "The Chessmaster" Groh, I hope he stays there for 20 more years. Then it'll be 20 more years of 5 - 7 wins, and algroh saying "we're very young, I was basically playing this year with next year's team". That leaves Duke and Wake Forest - I think they'll be perennial cellar dwellers for a long time to come. I know, I know Wake Forest won the ACC last year. Let me say FLUKE with a capital F-L-U-K-E. VT pounded them last year, just like they were the same old Wake. I watched that game, flummoxed how they were competing for the ACC title. Jim Grobe will smell the money before too long and take a higher profile job within the next 3-5 years.

So long-term, in any given year, I think you'll see 4 teams from the VT/Miami/FSU/Clemson/GT/NCST/BC grouping in the Top 25 - probably 2 in the Top 10. Betting odds would put Miami and FSU as the most likely to be up there, with VT a little bit behind. In a few years, add Butch Davis and UNC to that list. In a very good year, you could potentially have as many as 6 ACC teams in the Top 25. Not this year, probably not next year, but after that...

I certainly think the long-term outlook of the ACC is much more viable than the Big East. I know it's the current fashion to praise the Big East and how they "rose from the ashes" - but I don't see it long term. From finances to facilities, they are clearly #6 amongst the BCS conferences - and that eventually translates to not keeping up in the recruiting wars. The ACC will not be the SEC tomorrow, next year, or even 10 years from now. But 20 years from now? Who knows. 11 of the 12 schools are south of the Mason-Dixon line and have that similar southern football fan to draw on. Alright, Maryland isn't really "south", and Duke probably won't sniff 6+ wins in the next 20 years, but still...

Now as for all the whining about OOC scheduling - it's all about the money, guys. AD's barely listen to offers that aren't 2-for-1 deals anymore. The PAC-10 does decent, but they only have 10 teams. When the PAC-10 and Big-10(11) finally cave and expand to 12 teams (again, the money speaks), there'll be even less incentive to schedule those big time OOC games. I guess the Big East should expand to 12 as well, but I'm having trouble seeing the three teams they'd pick up to improve the conference - Marshall? ECU?

[Freshwater Spartan]

I read all of these posts of people with great teams looking forward to a great year and then I look at my team.

Michigan State will be lucky to get 6 wins. A Motor City Bowl would be a great year for us. Its hard to believe that MSU has won 6 national titles. Oh well there's always basketball.

Not too suprised that ND and Michigan won't be playing each other anymore (after 2010). You have two programs that strive for Title bids every year and one loss can easily exclude you. That means after week 2 one of the storied programs is more than likely out. Too High Stakes. Its a bad deal for fans though.

[Lukkake]

I certainly think the long-term outlook of the ACC is much more viable than the Big East. I know it's the current fashion to praise the Big East and how they "rose from the ashes" - but I don't see it long term. From finances to facilities, they are clearly #6 amongst the BCS conferences - and that eventually translates to not keeping up in the recruiting wars. The ACC will not be the SEC tomorrow, next year, or even 10 years from now. But 20 years from now? Who knows. 11 of the 12 schools are south of the Mason-Dixon line and have that similar southern football fan to draw on. Alright, Maryland isn't really "south", and Duke probably won't sniff 6+ wins in the next 20 years, but still...

The ACC isn't going to become the SEC, ever. Only three ACC schools (Virginia Tech, Clemson, and Florida State) have crowds and fan bases equal to the SEC. Miami should have decent crowds considering their success, but they don't. I do agree that we will move past the Big East in another year or two, when we will be comparable to the Big 11 or 12. And there's no way for NC State and UNC to both make a resurgence at once. They're stuck in the most competitive recruiting region with too many big name schools in one state. They'll will always have the advantage over Wake and Duke because they are public schools, but they can't both stay strong. When Butch Davis took the UNC job, he basically finished the job that Chuck Amato started in ruining that program. Case in point could be the cornerback, one of the best in North Carolina, that we signed today. He was considered a lock to go to State, but every day he didn't sign it was obvious he wouldn't be. Sure enough, he's off to Blacksburg.

[HokieStone]

The ACC isn't going to become the SEC, ever. Only three ACC schools (Virginia Tech, Clemson, and Florida State) have crowds and fan bases equal to the SEC. Miami should have decent crowds considering their success, but they don't.

Interesting point regarding crowds and fan bases. You're spot on about Miami - they're pathetic when it comes to drawing a crowd. They should move out of that rat trap called the Orange Bowl, and in to an on-campus stadium, but I don't know if that would help. They're a small school, a lot of their students come from (and move back to) the Northeast, and Miami (the city) has way too many options for the locals entertainment dollar.

However, I think NCST and UNC could reach that point. UNC is an interesting case really - they're among the top overall athletic programs in the country. They have the facilities and money to be a top program. They just need the right coach. Will Butch Davis be that coach? I dunno - but he'll certainly be better than their last guy. UMD and UVA have an outside chance of getting up to the lower end of SEC-type crowd support(70Kish), depending on continued success. GT and BC have the Miami-type problem of being relatively smaller schools in big cities, where pro sports is king. Duke and Wake - forget it. But the SEC has their Vanderbilt...

I do agree that we will move past the Big East in another year or two, when we will be comparable to the Big 11 or 12. And there's no way for NC State and UNC to both make a resurgence at once. They're stuck in the most competitive recruiting region with too many big name schools in one state. They'll will always have the advantage over Wake and Duke because they are public schools, but they can't both stay strong. When Butch Davis took the UNC job, he basically finished the job that Chuck Amato started in ruining that program. Case in point could be the cornerback, one of the best in North Carolina, that we signed today. He was considered a lock to go to State, but every day he didn't sign it was obvious he wouldn't be. Sure enough, he's off to Blacksburg.

You confused me on one point - Davis is now at UNC, Amato was the NCST coach - how did Butch finish off what Amato started?

Butch has been at UNC for what - 6 months? I don't think he's the be-all, end-all of college football - VT owned him while he was at Miami. But the man can recruit. Miami's National Championship in 2000(?) and their runner-up (to Ohio St.) was done with Butch's recruits. I'm a little nervous that he's going to lock down the state of NC for UNC, and I'm also nervous that he's going to chip away at the Tidewater region that Tech has had locked down for some time now. I think this recruiting season is a little too early to tell what kind of impact Davis will have.

[Lukkake]

You confused me on one point - Davis is now at UNC, Amato was the NCST coach - how did Butch finish off what Amato started?

I meant to say that when Amato took over for NC State, it was a decent program that was going up. Under Amato though they were about the most penalty and mistake prone football team I've ever seen. I don't even know if the stats back that up but if you watched the games, its amazing the Pack would wait until the most important plays to make the most flagrant fouls. And it would always take about one setback to get the whole team frustrated and out of the game mentally. So, according to me, what he started was ruining State's program and now things are going to be that much harder because they are competing with Davis for recruits.

[ZANNI_1276]

Interesting point regarding crowds and fan bases. You're spot on about Miami - they're pathetic when it comes to drawing a crowd. They should move out of that rat trap called the Orange Bowl, and in to an on-campus stadium, but I don't know if that would help. They're a small school, a lot of their students come from (and move back to) the Northeast, and Miami (the city) has way too many options for the locals entertainment dollar.

However, I think NCST and UNC could reach that point. UNC is an interesting case really - they're among the top overall athletic programs in the country. They have the facilities and money to be a top program. They just need the right coach. Will Butch Davis be that coach? I dunno - but he'll certainly be better than their last guy. UMD and UVA have an outside chance of getting up to the lower end of SEC-type crowd support(70Kish), depending on continued success. GT and BC have the Miami-type problem of being relatively smaller schools in big cities, where pro sports is king. Duke and Wake - forget it. But the SEC has their Vanderbilt...

You confused me on one point - Davis is now at UNC, Amato was the NCST coach - how did Butch finish off what Amato started?

Butch has been at UNC for what - 6 months? I don't think he's the be-all, end-all of college football - VT owned him while he was at Miami. But the man can recruit. Miami's National Championship in 2000(?) and their runner-up (to Ohio St.) was done with Butch's recruits. I'm a little nervous that he's going to lock down the state of NC for UNC, and I'm also nervous that he's going to chip away at the Tidewater region that Tech has had locked down for some time now. I think this recruiting season is a little too early to tell what kind of impact Davis will have.

The ACC can be interesting this year - last year totally backfired on them and i still subscribe to theroy that the whole conference is like a corporate brainchild but that is for another thread. Wake Forrest? Are you kidding me? Then you have Miami is in a transition - that guy they have down there is trying to turn that degenerate program around - which was one of its big selling points for thier recruits in the 80's, 90's and early 00's, kinda of like a vocational schools for felons. So they are in transition. FSU - they are an enigma? Did the game pass Bowden, not sure but it is never a good sign when you have to clean house with your assistant coaches (firing family members makes Christmas a bit uncomfortable) a couple years in row, the powers that be at FSU are probably praying everyday to the Seminole gods that Bowden just bows out gracefully. Obviously the talent base in Florida is HUGE but now you have Florida as the local juggernaught and other teams from the SEC filching the talent base so it is not like it was 10 -20 years ago when the three schools retained all the blue chipper talent in state.

Beamer will always put a competitive team on the field - regardless. I don't think he really gets the respect or credit he should for his ability to adjust to the talent that he has and keep a good product on the field. BC - that is another school that just stays competitive and even though O'Brien left that have a nose for finding a hardline coaches that put very good team on the field on Saturday afternoons.

GT - we will see, they lost some talent and i agree they are better off without Ball - if they had any QB there last year Calvin Johnson might have ran away with the Heisman; NCST -Obrien taking over for the ever incompetent Amato could be interesting.

The tarheels...

Butch.

Butch Davis

I am biased when it come to this man. I realize he picked up the peices at Maimi by recruiting from Juvenile Detention Facilities and Halfway Houses throughout the great state of Florida but Larry Coker won the Championship, albeit with the delinquents Davis recruited, dollars to to doughnuts Nebraska would have made that a game if the genuis Butch Davis hadn't left for the NFL. He then left the college ranks and absolutly decimated, destroyed a proffesional franchise, and for someone who allegedly has an eye for talent the fact that the USC trojans have more talent than the Browns is directly related to this man's poor judgement and the management skills that would get any common McDonalds assistant manager fired. I know nothing of Tarheels football. I do know that week in and week out i shall be rooting for them to be absolutly destroyed and i know that will probably be the case for the first year but if god is a fair and just Davis's tenure will be short lived. The one prediction you can take to the bank that the crime rate in the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area will be on the rise as a direct corelation to his culture and love affair with OUTLAW type athletes - i feel very sorry for the residents and students of this area. As i said i hope it is a short lived gig and he can return to his job of spewing bullshit to anyone who will listen about how great the dallas cowboys of th 90's were and his expierence at the U. His years with the Browns will be like the year in DALLAS when Bobby Ewing woke up and it was all a dream...Never happened.