Lummel Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 It has occurred to me how very bizarre this type of story is. I mean, you basically have one muscle-bound barbarian warrior, who wanders around strange and distant lands (usually alone, occasionally with chick or sidekick), completing quests, while everyone calls him "Barbarian!" - and there's a whole subgenre based on this one flimsy premise. What's that all about? Are barbarians only interesting if they are pitted (alone) against wizards and Grand Viziers and other soft aspects of civilisation? Do they never team up with each other? Or stay in the savage northlands and fight amongst themselves? You're right. I fell to thinking that the barbarian story is a twist on the old knight errand story. So instead of the spiritual and chivalric ethos of the knight errand the barbarian has a secular and materialistic worldview. Well secular and materialistic might not be the best words - maybe out for himself would be more accurate. When the kinight on his errand sees a lady in peril, he rescues her and gives her his cloak while the barbarian sees only a waste of wenchhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Then it's Stefanya's turn; her life story is, of course, less interesting, being mostly concerned with her being Zoqqanor's apprentice from a very young age So why is she so useless, if she is a wizard's apprentice? For that matter, why didn't Zoqqanor summon the demon to teach the villagers their manners when they were attacking his house? A pretty weird set-up, IMHO. So that our barb could better shine (?), presumably. I like your possibilities, Nerdanel. I like them very much indeed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 I think it would be a mistake to try applying too much logic or consistency to this story. "Kothar SMASH!" is about as sophisticated as it's likely to get. Of course, Fox may surprise us all with a twisty ending or an unreliable narrator or a cleverly-wrought metaphor for life's random turns, but at this stage I kinda doubt it... ETA: As that great philosopher H Simpson once put it, "Maybe there was no moral, it was just a bunch of stuff that happened." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reek Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Titian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdanel Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Interesting! It turns out that my hair color is titian or something very close to it. And here I was thinking that my hair was just an uninteresting and unclear shade of brown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Chapter Three! And Kothar and his wench are being menaced by lance-wielding bandits! Anger floods his face redly! He tells Stefanya to run away so he can fight, then it's game on! He raised Frostfire and hewed savagely, seeing only enemy faces, ringed with mail or enclosed by the nose-pieces and combs of a dozen helmets. He slew and slew, until his thickly-muscled arm ached with the shock of each succeeding blow. Without the girl to worry about, he might have broken free by charging Greyling through the press. But when he decided that he might do her more good free and began his run, half a dozen swords and axes crashed home on him. Hmmm. Can anyone else make sense of those last two sentences? I mean I can kind of see what he's trying to say, it's just that the words all seem to contradict each other. The half-dozen axes and swords haven't managed to inflict any fatal damage (in case you were worried), possibly because in this fight Fox has decided that Kothar is wearing plate mail and not chainmail, but it does injure him enough to let the bandits pull him off his horse (Stefanya got captured before the fight even started. Chicks, eh?). The bandits would love to have him join up with them (because he killed 15 of their mates?), but Torkal Moh has given orders for him to be staked out, instead. This involves them stripping him down to his loincloth (bye bye warboots, bye bye bear kilt, bye bye plate mail, we hardly knew ye) and tying him spreadeagled to the ground with pegs. But what for? Torkal Moh is here to explain. "I leave you here for the rats to eat, barbarian. There are many rats in these gorges. They came in the past because we robber barons made of this caravan road a graveyard of rotting corpses. Aye, the rats fed well - and since they clean the road of carrion, we have never bothered them. "Once in a while, such as now - I find a whimsy in me to punish a man who displeases me. You killed my men this day and wounded others. You shall regret your temerity. Kothar!" A man came running, bearing a large jar. "Cover him well with those slops off our table and smear in a little honey to make the eating more palatable. I should judge a man with your bulk to last a long time, barbarian. "While I am enjoying that little girl who was your companion, I shall think of your sufferings. I shall try to last until the dawn in my lovemaking, to match the length of time it will take the rats to eat enough of your body to be fatal!" My goodness! What a nasty man! One thing confuses me, however. How did he know Kothar's name? No-one's mentioned it so far this battle. Or, was the guy with the jar also called Kothar? That could make things complicated. And why do robber barons keep their dinner slops in a jar anyway, and carry it around with them on raids? I suppose you've always gotta be prepared for a staking-out. Kothar begs for water (pah, I can't see Thongor doing that!) and Torkal Moh is so eeeevil that he pours out a pitcher of water and places it just out of reach. Muahahaha! Then they ride off and leave him to the rats! What the hell happened to Zoqqanor? Was he still on the travois while Kothar was fighting fifteen men? He did pretty well not to get hurt, then. Did the warriors steal him as well? I guess we will find out soon enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupigis Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hmmm. Can anyone else make sense of those last two sentences? I mean I can kind of see what he's trying to say, it's just that the words all seem to contradict each other. Doesn't make sense to me either. but Torkal Moh has given orders for him to be staked out, instead. This involves them stripping him down to his loincloth (bye bye warboots, bye bye bear kilt, bye bye plate mail, we hardly knew ye) and tying him spreadeagled to the ground with pegs. WTF?! They let him keep the loincloth??? Wouldn't a genuine baddass robber baron want his torture victim to be naked while the rats nibbled away? And why do robber barons keep their dinner slops in a jar anyway, and carry it around with them on raids? I suppose you've always gotta be prepared for a staking-out. This thread delivers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha—Not Yara! Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Doesn't make sense to me either. WTF?! They let him keep the loincloth??? Wouldn't a genuine baddass robber baron want his torture victim to be naked while the rats nibbled away? This thread delivers! I guess letting him keep the loincloth is to keep the book with a PG-13 rating. ~snorts~ I'm surprised Kothar begged for water. One would think he would be too macho and tough to do that unless he had already be dehydrating for a couple of days. That definitely brings him down a few pegs in the Barbarian Toughness Scale. I'd give Thongar a 10 with Kothar a 5 so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Kothar continues to lose Barbarian Points, as his bulging muscles fail to break the leather straps, and the rats start to get really hurty. Their teeth were uncaring if they ate a little of him as they finished off the swill before they settled down to eat the man. This was an old story to these rodents, finding a man pegged out naked for the eating. Kothar supposed that the robber barons gave many travellers to these rats. It was an enjoyable way to get rid of prisoners. His teeth were sunk into his lower lip as the rats ate on. Now they were tearing his flesh, and the pain was fiery, agonising. Well, OK. I've been bitten by a hamster, and those little bastards do have pretty sharp teeth... but, come on! Where's that barbarian stoicism? With his thews proving inadequate to the task, Kothar instead has to use his less-than-mighty barbarian brain - but luckily he only has to outwit a rat, so he should just about manage it. He shouts and scares one of them into knocking over the pitcher of water so he can reach it, then he smashes it and uses one of the shards to cut his bonds. Sweeping the rats away, he heads off to find some water and some clothing, hoping not to get eaten by wolves in the meantime. Now, it's a cold night, and he's just got the loincloth on, but for some reason he decides it would be a good idea to jump into a frozen pool for a swim and a wash. The idiot is not even drunk! Fortunately, it appears that Fox has no idea of how things actually work in the wilderness so Kothar suffers no ill effects (like dying of exposure) and in fact the swim is invigorating and helps to wash off the robbers' gravy. Renewed of his barbaric energy, Kothar continues through the woods, now pursued by wolves. They attack! He chokes two of them to death! Then a woman's voice orders him to drop them! She is Lupalina, the Wolf Mistress, apparently the wolf version of that bear lady he shagged in his flashback earlier; she has black hair, green eyes and a purple mouth. They go back to her cabin, where she cooks him a hot meal and gives him some clothes - even wolf priestesses in the wilderness know how the wimminz are supposed to behave. She also enquires about... Stefanya's birthmark! *cue ominous music* Lupalina is merely Sorceress and not Love Interest, however, as Kothar has a chaste night in his bunk dreaming about Ursla. In the morning, she reveals some of her role in the plot - she used to live in Alkarion, confidante to Themas Herklar (you may remember, he's the guy that Kothar is supposed to be delivering that amulet to), until she was driven out by two Evil Wizards, Thalkalides and Elviriom, who plan to depose Herklar and rule all of Phalkar! Those names may be teeth-grindingly clumsy, but I suspect we'll need to remember them for later. She agrees to help Kothar in his quest to regain the amulet, as it will be part of her revenge against T and E. Now, this is such a standard cliche that it barely merits a mention, but I would just like to ruminate on the facts for a moment... Kothar is lost, a hundred miles out of his way and in the middle of a forest, and yet he handily meets someone who not only gives him food, clothing and shelter, but also knows all about the politics behind his mysterious quest and even about his companion's sodding birthmark... and no-one so much as remarks on how unusual this is. Not even a "Small world!" or a "Well I never!" (or a "This is just like the bit in that Edgar Rice Burroughs book!") - Fox is clearly not keen on lampshading his plot contrivances. Anyway, despite the ridiculous coincidence of their meeting, they set off together to attack Raven Garde! (Torkal Moh's HQ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik of Hazelfield Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Interesting strategy! Obscuring the obvious plot conveniences instead of lampshading them. In this case, I think it would have been quite easy to avoid this situation: - Kothar could, for example, have heard of Lupalina and the two magicians who cast her out. He could have guessed her identity, making him look smarter. - Lupalina could have followed him by some magic means (ASoIaF-like warging, say). - Kothar could have tracked her down himself, knowing she resided in some village. Just a few extra sentences would have sufficed to hand-wave the plot device away, but apparently that's begging for too much. By the way, I wonder if I should categorize the names "Lupalina" and "Ursla" as a clever word game or glaring anachronism (canis lupus = wolf, ursus = bear in Latin). What's next - a cat mistress named Felina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha—Not Yara! Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 By the way, I wonder if I should categorize the names "Lupalina" and "Ursla" as a clever word game or glaring anachronism (canis lupus = wolf, ursus = bear in Latin). What's next - a cat mistress named Felina? I rolled my eyes at their names which I think are cheesy and oh so obvious. I can't believe there would parents who just happen to name their daughter Ursla who just happens to become a bear shaman, and likewise with Lupalina. Though it's possible both women could have chosen the names for themselves after they became shaman, but I still think it's cheesy. I could be giving the general public too much credit though when it comes to how recognizable the Latin origin of the names were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Oh, my. I just spent a couple hours entertaining myself by reading this thread. Vocab word of the year: thews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx4allthefish Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 Now, it's a cold night, and he's just got the loincloth on, but for some reason he decides it would be a good idea to jump into a frozen pool for a swim and a wash. The idiot is not even drunk! Fortunately, it appears that Fox has no idea of how things actually work in the wilderness so Kothar suffers no ill effects (like dying of exposure) and in fact the swim is invigorating and helps to wash off the robbers' gravy. wait! when did we come out of the desert? i remember one of our fellow listeners mentioning how much sense it makes to wear a bearskin in the desert. all of a sudden we have frozen waters in quantities sufficient for a swim ... AND ... a forest. how did that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I can't believe there would parents who just happen to name their daughter Ursla who just happens to become a bear shaman, and likewise with Lupalina. Heh heh! Maybe the name came first and the job followed through "occupational determinism". It helps make giving careers advise easier: What's your name little girl? Lupalina! Hmm, that's a nice name. Have you ever thought of becoming a wolf shaman? Career progression is very good these days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Oops, double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 By the way, I wonder if I should categorize the names "Lupalina" and "Ursla" as a clever word game or glaring anachronism (canis lupus = wolf, ursus = bear in Latin). What's next - a cat mistress named Felina? Or possibly Ferretina, the Weasel Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 "We shall attack Raven Garde this day," she murmured. Kothar grinned. "By Dwallka! I like your spirit - if not your wisdom. You - me - and a handful of wolves? What kind of fortress is this Raven Garde?" "Strong, Kothar. Its stone walls tower to three times the height of a very tall man. It has one gate that is always barred." She bit her lip, frowning. "You may be right. Raven Garde may be too strong for us." "Then we won't attempt it," he laughed. You may be forgiven for thinking Kothar is wussing out, given his less than stellar track record so far (Lupalina certainly thinks so), but in fact he has a Cunning Plan. They will wait for the next band of robbers to go a-robbing, then waylay them and steal their... robber uniforms? so they can sneak into the fortress. Lupalina approves, and shows her teeth in a pleased smile. The journey is a bit tough though, and Kothar has to keep reminding Lupalina of all the shiny jewellery she'll be able to steal so she doesn't give up and turn back. Sure enough, they soon encounter a band of robbers, this time escorting a bunch of villagers they have captured, taking them back to the fortress for Nefarious Purposes! Six robbers versus one Kothar? Pah, chickenfeed. He dispatches three men in as many paragraphs: Kothar lunged. He made no battlecry, had no wind to spare for this refinement. He was off the ground and the fingers of his left hand went around the throat of the horseman nearest him even as he leaned across him and smote with his swordedge at the second man, catching him between neck and shoulder with his blade. The man in his fist raised hands to rear away the iron fingers that choked his windpipe. Kothar yanked free his blade and toppled the man from the saddle, landing atop the struggling robber soldier with his swordblade at his throat. The barbarian tensed his muscles and the sword went through flesh and cartilage. Instantly the barbarian was up, flinging himself beneath the barrel of a riderless horse and striking upward with the point. Into the belly of a third man it went. That man died while Kothar was leaping to parry a slashing blade and driving his steel into a startled face. Tell a lie, that looked like 4 kills to Kothar's account. Two more men were killed by the wolves, Kothar gets another one, and Lupalina takes down the last with a well-thrown knife. Yes, I know that's more than six. Fox must have just gotten so carried away with the moment that he forgot how many bad guys were left to kill. Anyway, Kothar unshackles the peasants and recruits them to help with his assault on Raven Garde; they are reluctant at first but then decide that it's better to die in battle than have Torkal Moh come and capture them again to sacrifice to his evil god. They disguise themselves as robbers and head on up the road! ---- Well. Fox's prose, bad and clumsy as it is, doesn't quite have the same yikes! factor as Carter's. Where are the golden and scarlet rays of a crimson sunrise? Where is the god-whelmed stench that beslimes the chancrous scales of a fiendish monstrous horror? Where, indeed, are Illana the Moon-Lady, Aedir the Sun-God and the Thunder of Gorm Almighty? Dwallka and his war-hammer get a few cursory mentions, but just don't quite seem to cut it. There's a monster in the next chapter though, so I have hopes that things may yet improve... Edit: arsebiscuits, I don't think I can label my quotes any more. Damnit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Min, this stuff is gold too, it's as bad as Carter, just in a different way! What about the extreme micro-climates and predictive character names (although 'tis a pity the robber chief wasn't called Felonious)? I love the idea that Raven Garde has one gate that is always barred, and there I was thinking that the point of having a gate was that you could go in and out through it. Stupid me. Then the idea that a typical robber band will include a lady wolf-shaman, a gaggle of villagers and a pack of wolves - nothing suspicious there. Lucky that there are so many robbers in Raven Garde that they will be able to mingle with the crowd and not be recognised as not being the same robbers who left the fortress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdanel Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Kothar is shaping up to be really badly plotted. I await eagerly to see if the early part will ever make sense in the context. Also, I think Carter paid attention enough that the number of combatants didn't change mysteriously mid-scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Edit: arsebiscuits, I don't think I can label my quotes any more. Damnit! You can, but with the constraint that they have to start with "From" or end with "said". [quote date='Kothar: This is a label for a quote']Example for label[/quote] [quote name='This is a label for a quote, Kothar']Example for label[/quote] Example for label Example for label If we knew the other options for the Invision 3.0 quote tag, we might be able to find one without constraints. I wonder if Ran knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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