Last Argument of Kings SPOILER THREAD

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Padreic']What greater good could that be?[/quote]

Bringing Bayaz to justice? Khalul alone obviously can't do much, as Bayaz has the other magi, at least those that still care, on his side. So he needs help. But as I said, it's impossible to tell from what we learn in the books.

[quote name='Padreic']Bayaz empire is clearly not as bad as Khalul's.[/quote]

Really? I think that's another thing we can not really judge. I mean, the Union certainly didn't come together peacefully; Bayaz is a strong believer in an authoritarian system and uses the situation after the war to strengthen that aspect of the Union etc. Just because there aren't any slaves in the Union doesn't mean their peasants are truly all that much better of.

[Voland]

So good, so so good! A really terrific conclusion. Were there actually any hereos? :D Truly a machiavellian contest between the players with the most machiavellion of them all, Bayaz, being the winner. The "heroes" actually won by being more ruthless than the oposition.
Add me to the crowd that didn't see the true depth of Bayaz's ruthlessness. I wouldn't call him evil, I don't believe the word makes much sense in Abercrombie's world. Other than the Bloody-Nine personality of Logen's perhaps. Him killing Tul Duru was probably the most powerful moment of the book, and there were a lot. And he was one of the more sympathetic characters as well, and not to mention that he seemed so happy to see Logen again when he returned to the north. RIP :(

Did West die? I got the feeling that he was still alive, barely, when they carried him from the room.

I really should have reread the previous two books beforehand, because I missed a lot :D Bayaz behind V&B, of course! Who else...missed it. Had my suspicions about Quai, but that it was the Maker's daughter, and that Bayaz actually killed her. Missed it. Frost and severard traitors, missed it. A lot of cool surprises though, made for a better read since I hate predictable books.

Surprised me as well that all the major characters lived. I was really expecting Ninefingers to die with a "Still aliv....". Loved his character, probably my favorite with Glokta (same as everyone else).

Jezal's arc was really very funny. Especially how he probably had it in him to be a good king,but Bayaz wouldn't let him. nice twist to the farmboy turns into a great leader alá Eddings.

[Sheep the Evicted]

I have had a bit of time to digest the book now and I take back what I said about Bayaz and Logen being evil. That’s pretty naïve. I was just stunned at the complete and utter indifference Logen and Bayaz seemed to have for the lives of their “friends”.

Logen especially. What gets to me is how he keeps looking for fights and his lack of regret and false justification afterwards, true he says he wants to “be a better man” but if he really wanted that then he would bugger of to some quiet corner of the world and raise a family or something. I think I read somewhere that Abercrombie was a psychologist and that brought to mind a condition where people are in love with the image they create for themselves. Bayaz said it best “Always thinking about the song they are going to right, ehh?” and Bethod “ I begged you to spare him but you had to have the biggest name in the North” (paraphrashing) and I think in Logens mind at least the song would have sounded so much better if the barbaric king changed his ways and became a good bountiful one. Just look at the way Logen turned himself into “the man” while travelling with Bayaz and Co. All image.

Only problem is that even Logen could smell the bullshit for what it was ( like Dogman and all the rest could) and hated himself enough to die, or maybe he decided he couldn’t be the King he dreamed of being. I was struck by just how suicidal it is to fight an eater one on one (in his normal state); especially if you are aware of just how terrible they are.

That’s my theory at least.

On that note the one disappointment I had with LAoK was that we still don’t know what the hell the Blood-Nine is. But from what I read the bloody-nine state seems very similar to the eaters way of fighting. Endless speed and strength.

[Voland]

I get the feeling now that Logen was/is pretty delusional. As you say, his mental image of himself doesn't at all fit with his actions, or even when he talks to other people. Seems as if his history caught up to him when he returned to the north.

[Lupigis]

I wouldn't say that Logen is delusional in general. He is just fooling himself about how life will be when he goes back north. There are a few lines at the end of the chapter where they bury Tul Duru that sum it up well - something about how you have to go to a new place to become a new man and how Logen became the old Bloody Nine when he went back.

[MinDonner]

On Bayaz being evil - I think that's actually a fair enough description, depending on how strictly you define "evil". If it is the state of only seeing people as objects to be manipulated and as means to an end for your own personal aggrandisement, then Bayaz is definitely evil. If it's a more nebulous "fantasy" type of evil then maybe not, but by human standards he's about as evil as you can get.

[Voland]

OT

What's with all the wine-inspired user names?

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Minot Donoir']On Bayaz being evil - I think that's actually a fair enough description, depending on how strictly you define "evil". If it is the state of only seeing people as objects to be manipulated and as means to an end for your own personal aggrandisement, then Bayaz is definitely evil. If it's a more nebulous "fantasy" type of evil then maybe not, but by human standards he's about as evil as you can get.[/quote]

Absolutely agreed.

[quote name='Voland']What's with all the wine-inspired user names?[/quote]

There was a wonderful [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=26907&st=0&start=0"]trainwreck[/url] of a thread about Champagne in General Chatter not too long ago, the [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=26920&st=0&start=0"]name changes[/url] came about because of that.

[Voland]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1279517' date='Mar 19 2008, 11.27']Absolutely agreed.



There was a wonderful [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=26907&st=0&start=0"]trainwreck[/url] of a thread about Champagne in General Chatter not too long ago, the [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=26920&st=0&start=0"]name changes[/url] came about because of that.[/quote]


Holy shit, 21 pages! Why did I miss this! :tantrum:

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1280772' date='Mar 20 2008, 01.22']I wants more mind-rotting spoilers.[/quote]

Well, if you insist:

Upon returning from the edge of the world and after the death of the king, Bayaz arranges for Jezal to draw a magic sword from a stone to get him elected king. They then prepare the Union to fight a war against Khalul, who has declared himself God-Emperor and for some reason turned into a giant human/snake hybrid. He is defeated when brother Longfoot, after traversing the inhospitable southlands, deposes of his magical ring in a volcano.

Meanwhile Logen has returned north, where he has a series of adventures involving ancient monsters, hidden treasures and scantily clad priestesses and finally ends up becoming king of Cimmeria.

Back in Adua, Jezal, upon learning that Bayaz has orchestrated all the events in the trilogy in order to learn the secret recipe of an ancient Druidic potion that grants greatly increased strength (which he plans to market to athletes participating in the Old Empire's equivalent of the Olympics), abdicates and after a long journey along the coast he discovers the remains of the Statue of Liberty and proceeds to decry humanity's foolishness in a 60 page long speech that would make Richard Rahl proud.

[john]

Alright, I enjoyed it, naturally, but I thought it was a bit too ... guessable. Not just the big things, which most of us cottoned on to, but also the fact that every single thing that got flagged up turned out to be significant. There was no red herrings.

Of course, that's part of the reason I liked it - it's a shortish fantasy trilogy where all the loose ends are tied up (in some way at least) but I did think it lacked a bit of a kick.

[quote name='Padreic' post='1276007' date='Mar 17 2008, 14.16']Bayaz evil? Nah. Not any more evil then most characters, at least. He had an overly powerful enemy who was without a doubt more evil than himself, and he did what he had to do. So he craved for power and glory on the way? Well, who doesn't. I think by using terms as 'evil', you are missing the point of the books.[/quote]

I don't think so. It's quite clear that the end of the book is not supposed to sit well with us readers (the Readers! We break the law of grammar and feast upon ink!). Bayaz is evil. There may well be others who are equally so, but it doesn't particularly matter because Bayaz is the one who interracts with our characters. In fact, I may be a sentimental fool, but I would have preferred a slightly more satisfying resolution. Essentially, we have Glotka saying he'll be able to work some wriggle room from his arrangement with Bayaz, and help the Union that way. That's the only scrap we get.

I was hoping for someone unexpectedly to get killed. Preferrably Bayaz, but Glotka would have done nicely too, or even Ferro. Just reinfoces the idea that everything goes on, nobody wins. Longfoot would be my nomination for turning out to be more than he seems, and killing one of them at the end. How hard can it be to kill a Magus, anyway? Just poison him, or stab him when he's not looking.

[quote name='Voland' post='1279463' date='Mar 19 2008, 08.50']I get the feeling now that Logen was/is pretty delusional. As you say, his mental image of himself doesn't at all fit with his actions, or even when he talks to other people. Seems as if his history caught up to him when he returned to the north.[/quote]

This was another interesting point. Are we supposed to think Logen is evil or not? We still have no idea what the Bloody Nine is. People with personality disorders (much less people with some sort of supernatural curse on them) are not usually considered evil. If the Bloody Nine is in fact a construction he deliberately chooses for himself then fair enough, he is evil. But we still don't know for sure.

[Lupigis]

[quote name='john' post='1281417' date='Mar 20 2008, 14.56']I was hoping for someone unexpectedly to get killed.[/quote]

Yeah, but wasn't that one of the unguessable things? Bayaz, Logen, Jezal, Ferro, Glotka and the Dogman all made it through alive. And it was still a tragedy. Who would have guessed?

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='john' post='1281417' date='Mar 20 2008, 13.56']I don't think so. It's quite clear that the end of the book is not supposed to sit well with us readers (the Readers! We break the law of grammar and feast upon ink!). Bayaz is evil. There may well be others who are equally so, but it doesn't particularly matter because Bayaz is the one who interracts with our characters. In fact, I may be a sentimental fool, but I would have preferred a slightly more satisfying resolution. Essentially, we have Glotka saying he'll be able to work some wriggle room from his arrangement with Bayaz, and help the Union that way. That's the only scrap we get.[/quote]

I agree Bayaz is pretty much as bad as a human can get. He truly doesn't give a flying fuck because he knows he is pretty much untouchable.


[quote name='john' post='1281417' date='Mar 20 2008, 13.56']I was hoping for someone unexpectedly to get killed. Preferrably Bayaz, but Glotka would have done nicely too, or even Ferro. Just reinfoces the idea that everything goes on, nobody wins. Longfoot would be my nomination for turning out to be more than he seems, and killing one of them at the end. How hard can it be to kill a Magus, anyway? Just poison him, or stab him when he's not looking.[/quote]


I don't know about you but Wests death complety blindsided me. And made me really hate Bayaz; he destoryed half the city and then gave radiation poisoning to quite a large amount of the survivors.

As for killing him i already mentioned his reflexes when fighting Tomei. You can be sure that someone like Bayaz has it covered. I think he really and truly is at the very top of the food chain.

[quote name='john' post='1281417' date='Mar 20 2008, 13.56']This was another interesting point. Are we supposed to think Logen is evil or not? We still have no idea what the Bloody Nine is. People with personality disorders (much less people with some sort of supernatural curse on them) are not usually considered evil. If the Bloody Nine is in fact a construction he deliberately chooses for himself then fair enough, he is evil. But we still don't know for sure.[/quote]

The evidence points to the bloody-nine being a curse or a spirit because he seems to change physically. Suddenly he becomes unstoppably fast and unstoppably strong. He made the Northmen KNEEL for godsake.
But thats not what i am talking about i am talking about Logens complete lack of regret. He seems in love with the image of the reformed "good guy", but he isn't. He is a killer.

[john]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1282226' date='Mar 20 2008, 21.04']I agree Bayaz is pretty much as bad as a human can get. He truly doesn't give a flying fuck because he knows he is pretty much untouchable.[/quote]

Yeah, by the end he doesn't even bother with any of the greater good stuff. It's quite refreshing, he's a dark lord just because. How long until he gets bored and decides he needs to whip the Tellers of Secrets into place?

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1282226' date='Mar 20 2008, 21.04']I don't know about you but Wests death complety blindsided me. And made me really hate Bayaz; he destoryed half the city and then gave radiation poisoning to quite a large amount of the survivors.[/quote]

West getting sick did surprise me a bit. But I meant more someone actually getting [i]killed[/i]. Seriously, Longfoot's a pussy. Oh yes, cut of my foot sir, thank you sir, no I wont trouble you again sir. Since he was acting for Mamun, you might have thought he had something up his sleeve.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1282226' date='Mar 20 2008, 21.04']As for killing him i already mentioned his reflexes when fighting Tomei. You can be sure that someone like Bayaz has it covered. I think he really and truly is at the very top of the food chain.[/quote]

His reflexes with Tomei weren't very impressive. She kicked his ass. It was only Yulwei who saved him. Fair enough, a few humans aren't going to trouble him much but I think he could be gotten the better of. Not in political manouvering perhaps, but possibly in raw violence, so long as you were prepared for loss of life. A cavalry charge, Knights of the Body, a few barrels of Gurkish explosive powders.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1282226' date='Mar 20 2008, 21.04']The evidence points to the bloody-nine being a curse or a spirit because he seems to change physically. Suddenly he becomes unstoppably fast and unstoppably strong. He made the Northmen KNEEL for godsake.
But thats not what i am talking about i am talking about Logens complete lack of regret. He seems in love with the image of the reformed "good guy", but he isn't. He is a killer.[/quote]

I don't think we should feel too much pity for him, but it's not true that he has no regret. And if the Bloody-Nine is some sort of supernatural entity, then it's easy to treat Logen with some sympathy, even if he, Logen, chooses to play the part and put himself in positions where the Bloody Nine will arise. It's understandable. If I had the power to randomly become death itself, it would change my outlook on life. A willing victim isn't as bad as a willful killer.

[Lupigis]

I think that Logen is a character with a great capacity for self deception and rationalisation. He genuinely wants to be free of the Bloody Nine, he wants to become a better man, but he doesn't know how to do it and he is fooling himself about the man he was and about the consequences of his actions.

We get an example of this as soon as we meet him, when he decides not to look for the rest of the band after the attack of the Shanka. He says they must all be dead and goes away on his own. I bought this the first time I read it, when I didn't know anything about the Shanka or the rest of Logens band. Now, however, knowing just how badass Thretrees, Black Dow, Tul Duru and the rest are and having seen how relatively well they have fared while fighting Shanka, it really looks like Logen is subconsciously looking for an excuse to leave his band and strike out on his own.

I like Logen, and I really think that as long as he stays away from the North, he actually manages to be a better man than he was. His fateful mistake is going back, and he also realises this in Last Argument of Kings (there are a number of relevant quotes in the book about this but I'm too tired to look them up).

By the end of the book Logen is back where he started. In a bleakish sort of way this is actually a hopeful ending for him, because this gives him another opportunity to go away for good. It's not much, but after all the last chapter is called the beginning, and that gives me some hope that Logen will go away for good this time and manage to build a new life for himself.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='john' post='1282385' date='Mar 20 2008, 22.45']Yeah, by the end he doesn't even bother with any of the greater good stuff. It's quite refreshing, he's a dark lord just because. How long until he gets bored and decides he needs to whip the Tellers of Secrets into place?


His reflexes with Tomei weren't very impressive. She kicked his ass. It was only Yulwei who saved him. Fair enough, a few humans aren't going to trouble him much but I think he could be gotten the better of. Not in political manouvering perhaps, but possibly in raw violence, so long as you were prepared for loss of life. A cavalry charge, Knights of the Body, a few barrels of Gurkish explosive powders.[/quote]

No she didn't. He kept smacking her about but she just wouldn't die. Ferro ( yes the insano killing machine expert-archer Ferro) couldn't even follow their movements. Yulwei was the same ( and its defintely not mind tricks this time because a physical object was thrown at him and he dodged it.) so it appears that all Magi ( make that all people who touch the other side) have a form of super-human speed. Perhaps even strength.

As for what you think will be enough to take out Bayaz- thats an army.
And your wrong - i shall try to disprove this mathematically.

Union army< Hundred Words (god they where so seriously badass) < Bayaz.

Bayaz = Khalul > all.

[quote name='Lupigis' post='1282435' date='Mar 20 2008, 23.13']I like Logen, and I really think that as long as he stays away from the North, he actually manages to be a better man than he was. His fateful mistake is going back, and he also realises this in Last Argument of Kings (there are a number of relevant quotes in the book about this but I'm too tired to look them up).

By the end of the book Logen is back where he started. In a bleakish sort of way this is actually a hopeful ending for him, because this gives him another opportunity to go away for good. It's not much, but after all the last chapter is called the beginning, and that gives me some hope that Logen will go away for good this time and manage to build a new life for himself.[/quote]


I call bullshit. He had a chancee to settle down when he killed Bethod like Dogman said it wasn't as if Logen had ever considered his word binding. He even could have settled down after the fight but he wanted to comeback and "sort out Calder and Scale." Guy doesn't understand peace, he was made for war and killing. Pretty much all his friends said it in the end. Sad thing is the Bloody Nine will probably be even more famous/feared/respected then Skraling Hoodless.

[john]

[quote name='Lupigis' post='1282435' date='Mar 20 2008, 23.13']I think that Logen is a character with a great capacity for self deception and rationalisation. He genuinely wants to be free of the Bloody Nine, he wants to become a better man, but he doesn't know how to do it and he is fooling himself about the man he was and about the consequences of his actions.[/quote]

Yes, there's definitely self-deception going on but we can't really tell to what degree, since we don't know what the bloody nine is. It's made clear in this book that the guy who warred with Bethod was a nasty bastard, so it seems to me there's three possible options about the Logen/Bloody Nine combo. 1) The B9 takes over more frequently when Logen is fighting in the North. 2) Logen and the B9 are much closer, more connected, than previously realised, or, 3) Logen's a delusional psychopath with a very complicated, multilayered self-deception going on. So it's quite hard to clear up whether he is evil or not.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1282524' date='Mar 21 2008, 00.15']No she didn't. He kept smacking her about but she just wouldn't die. Ferro ( yes the insano killing machine expert-archer Ferro) couldn't even follow their movements. Yulwei was the same ( and its defintely not mind tricks this time because a physical object was thrown at him and he dodged it.) so it appears that all Magi ( make that all people who touch the other side) have a form of super-human speed. Perhaps even strength.[/quote]

Where are you getting this from? Bayaz went to flame her and Tolmei, despite being ten paces away, instantly smacked him into a wall where he lay senseless. Yulwei intervened and later Bayaz he chopped her with the divider and dropped a machine on her. If he was relying purely on his own strength and speed he'd have been fucked.

Yulwei, I admit, does show super reflexes, but I took that as a personal thing. I'm not sure you can categorise all those who touch the other side as having super reflexes. Everyone's different, all the Eaters, the Magi and Bayaz's sneaky apprentices appear to have different skills, depending on what laws they break and magic they draw on.

So, I still say it would be possible to sneak up on Bayaz and cut his throat.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1282524' date='Mar 21 2008, 00.15']As for what you think will be enough to take out Bayaz- thats an army.
And your wrong - i shall try to disprove this mathematically.

Union army< Hundred Words (god they where so seriously badass) < Bayaz.

Bayaz = Khalul > all.[/quote]

Well, it's Bayaz + the Seed > Hundred Words. So if you didn't give him the chance to inverse eleven inversed wards (or something), you'd have a chance. And if you could get some magical aid to boot then it's not looking nearly so certain. Bayaz combined Making and High Art to create an unstoppable force. So you just need to get Khalul to combine Eating, Art and, say, talking to spirits to create the even more unstoppable magical tripartite!

[Poobah]

Bayaz only managed to kill the hundred words etc. because he had a nuke. Without the Seed he'd have been ripped limb from limb and eaten. I reckon the new uber-Ferro could take him out so long as he didn't have the Seed on him.

By the way, what's up with Bayaz not getting the radiation poisoning? I mean... if he were Seed-immune he wouldn't need Ferro to carry the damn thing for him, so why isn't he dying the slow agonising death we'd all like for him?

-Poobs

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Poobah']By the way, what's up with Bayaz not getting the radiation poisoning? I mean... if he were Seed-immune he wouldn't need Ferro to carry the damn thing for him, so why isn't he dying the slow agonising death we'd all like for him?[/quote]

I assume the rather elaborate setup he used to tap into the Seed's power also served to protect the user from any negative side effects. Also, Ferro was still holding the thing throughout the battle, right?

[Lupigis]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1283219' date='Mar 21 2008, 15.33']Also, Ferro was still holding the thing throughout the battle, right?[/quote]

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well. With Ferro gone, will Bayaz be able to use the seed at all? It really seemed like he needed her to be able to use it, but I'm not sure.