Last Argument of Kings SPOILER THREAD

[mormont]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1291519' date='Mar 28 2008, 09.04']Finished this last night, and haven't too much to add to what has already been said. West's demise was horrid. Glotka did a lot of bad things (for the greater good) throughout the series, but you kind of had to forgive him for it. But the way he forced Terez to fuck Jezal was the final straw for me. Having a talk with her reminding her about her 'duties' (as distasteful as we find these today, they are the though reality of that setting) is one thing, but imprisoning her lover and threatening with gang rape?[/quote]

Prertty much on a par with the things he's done elsewhere in the books, to be honest. Threatening the lives of children, torturing and killing people he knows are innocent, sacrificing thousands for political advantage in the name of causes he doesn't even believe in... Bayaz clearly saw a kindred spirit there.

[The Iceman of the North]

I know, but I kind of managed to ignore it up to this point. :)

[john]

Glotka doesn't mess people around just for the hell of it, on the other hand, which Bayaz certainly does. Glotka's had it literally beaten into him how the world works and he doesn't appear to have much sympathy for those that don't realise it. This includes wilful princesses and innocent victims of political manouvering. He helps people where he can, the Gurkish natives, the spicer women, the redhead whose name I have inexplicably forgotten and all of the other practicals including Rews. He just doesn't go out of his wayto do so.

[seiazeon]

I just finished the book earlier today and something has been nagging me ever since then. Bayaz threw Tolomei off the top of the House of the Maker about 1000 years ago. She survived because her 'devil blood' came into contact with the Seed. Over the next 1000 years-ish she listened to the voice's, became stronger, and became an Eater. Right? So Bayaz imprison's her inside the House of the Maker for all time because he couldn't defeat her. What exactly is to stop her from climbing to one of the balcony's along the side of building (like the one Jezel and Glokta rested at in book one) and simply jumping off? It was the only thing really unresolved in my mind.

Fantastic Series though, been reccomending it like crazy.

[Dolorous Edd]

Just finished.

My mind is blown.

To all the fantasy authors who have patted themselves on the back over the years for turning the cliches of the genre on their head, I say they should read The First Law.

That is how you take down cliches.

Love the writing, love the characterization, love the gallows humor, love the audacity of it all.

Now I'm wrestling with what happens next. Not in the world Joe created, but in the genre and my reading of it.

Joe has a left a smoking wasteland in his wake. I'm not sure whether I love him or hate him or both.

Nothing will ever be the same.

[mormont]

[quote name='john' post='1292203' date='Mar 28 2008, 20.55']Glotka doesn't mess people around just for the hell of it, on the other hand, which Bayaz certainly does.[/quote]

Well, yes and no. Glokta does act in causes he thinks are meaningless and doesn't care about, and torture people for no real reason, but I'm not sure that's the same as doing it 'for the hell of it'. He's usually acting under orders - and there does seem to be an element of self-preservation there, as much as he denies he wants to live.

I think the difference you're getting at is that he doesn't share Bayaz' arrogance, which is true. I can't imagine Bayaz ever asking himself 'why do I do this?'. His attitude is 'I do it because I am me and I can do anything I like'. ETA - on reflection, that should be 'anything I see fit to do'...

Maybe it's my imagination, though, but I thought I detected a trace of this attitude emerging in Glokta at the end of LAoK. I think in a few years Glokta may be much more like Bayaz than he is now...

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1286030' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.03']I hope so. On the specific of character death, although most of the cliches of fantasy root back to Tolkein, it seems that the newer offshoot of gritty fantasy is starting to develop a few cliches of its own. It's almost par for the course now, a la martin, to have massive character death all over the place. So much so that I've seen threads around about The First Law where people are asking - who's going to die in the end, then? Probably they'll be more shocked and upset by only one central person dying, and him in a very ragged, unconcluded and unglamorous way, than they would by the whole cast being extinguished in a final ride for glory. For me there are potentially more interesting things you can do with a character than kill them off (not thatyou can't do that with huge effect as well).

Part of the problem, I think, is that killing your characters at the end of a book is almost as much of a neat resolution as the happy victory of righteousness and the kingdom reunited type ending. It's a sadder type , perhaps, but still a neat one, and I think people generally long for that. They laugh or they cry, but either way it's finished, resolved, comfortable. The main thing I was trying to do with these books was make them feel to some extent like real life, like the lives of these characters had gone on before the start of the books and would continue after. Life has few neat resolutions. There's war in Iraq, there's victory in Iraq, but clearly the story doesn't end there. It barely even starts there. So I didn't want glorious deaths for my characters any more than I wanted glorious victories. There are very rarely any such things, except in stories.

I don't myself feel like that was chickening out, but I know some people will, and I know some people will also just turned off by the futility of the whole thing, but them's the breaks, you have to call it as you see it.[/quote]

I completely agree with you the end was much better because the main characters didn't die. That was one of the biggest surprises in the book, and mostly it wasn't even a pleasant surprise.

On that note i never actually considered West, or Ardee or Ferro or even Dogman as main characters. In my head at least that title was reserved for Bayaz and Glokta and Logen. The bad thing about West's death was that he was home and dry. He didn't die in the war and he didn't die in the rescue of the city and he didn't even die in that Black Cyclone. He was safe. Would you believe it it looks like all the characters are gonna live through it. Then he got sick. Bastard!

But the fact is despite all the odds stacked against them most of characters survived. Like in a lot of other books.

Hell i don't even know the point i'm trying to make. I guess you'll just have to be satisfied with the fact that you left me in two minds.

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1286030' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.03']With Logen, though, I was interested in investigating the nature of violence, and particularly how it's portrayed in fantasy. As sexy and disposable, on the whole. We're often shown these men with a dark past and are invited to think of that as glamorous, that a man can be a killer but basically still be a good bloke. There's this dark glamour associated with someone being dangerous in real life, but on the whole, in my experience, being dangerous means being more aggressive, more willing to go to the extremes of violence more quickly than people generally will. It's pretty disgusting, in fact, and has a disgusting effect on everyone around. So the hope was that readers would just be caught up in the well-meaning buffoon side of Logen's personality, and give him a completely free pass on a brutal past (yeah, yeah, he's killed more men than the plague, whatever). Then when it's gradually revealed what a nasty, destructive, self-deluding, self-excusing piece of work he is, with any luck the reader feels kind of horrified to have been taken in. But then again, he's also a funny, warm, comradely guy. Like Jezal says, you're the best man I know, and for him that's true. Such are the contradictions of real people, he says pretentiously...[/quote]

This was an ego-smasher. Word for word this was my relationship with Logen.




[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']A king who knows he's a puppet, lives in permanent fear and has a wife who's revolted by him and is being blackmailed into pretending she wants to jump his bones, basically making her an accessory in her own rape. I'd have spent my days plotting hs death if I was Terez.[/quote]

Yeah but he doesn't know that. And yes maybe he is afraid of Bayaz coming back but so long as he and Glokta have a nice working relationship then there is no need for that to happen. Also from what we can see it seems like Jezal is doing good things, which are probably making him feel good in turn.



[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']Glokta is still a horrible, twisted and cruel man, not to mention a cripple, and his strings are being pulled even more obviously. Greater good? You mean Bayaz's thousand-year-old temper tantrum...[/quote]

My impression of Glokta is that he is a great friend and a terrible enemy. He really can't help being a cripple. And Bayaz is a thousand miles away; what ever orders he gives will be few and far between.


[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']And I really wish he didn't.[/quote]

You know as well as i do that Khalul's rule wouldn't have been any better. All evidence actually seems to point to it being even worse.

[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']Probably? And merely alive? To do what - kill more people? I honestly can't decide if I want Logen dead or alive, and that's what makes it worse. He had an awesome full circle ending, though. It just made so much sense.[/quote]

He's the main character though. And lets face it Logen is happy if he has a vendetta on his plate. I just can't decide if Logen is gonna come back and kill Shivers too.


[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']Sure, she could be dead. And maybe, just maybe she could have something good in her life for a change? And that's not just being a nursemaid for the rest of her life.[/quote]

There are plenty of examples of happy couples one of which has a severe disability. As the wife of the most powerful man in the union do you honestly believe she won't be feared and respected and dote on by all the high class women who snobbed her before ? I can see her really enjoying herself. Sort of like Tywin Lannisters wife she will rule the nation by proxy. I think she got the best deal of the lot.


[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']I'm sure the worms will ask very politely if they may gnaw on his wasted-by-radiation-sickness body in his grave. :P[/quote]

Yeah but it will be a grave built by the finest stonemasons in the nation a couple of hundred meters away from his larger than life statue to be remembered and revered throughout the ages. Grim isn't getting that. Actually he might as one of the dreaded companions of the bloody nine.



[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']Fuck fate.[/quote]



[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']Dogman is an exile, put there by a bastard of bastards, and you think he'll be accepted with open arms back in the North now that Logen is away?[/quote]

He doesn't seem to have any particular love of the North. Let him live in luxury in the south.


I still maintain that most of the main characters got a good deal.

[john]

[quote name='mormont' post='1293577' date='Mar 30 2008, 13.18']Well, yes and no. Glokta does act in causes he thinks are meaningless and doesn't care about, and torture people for no real reason, but I'm not sure that's the same as doing it 'for the hell of it'. He's usually acting under orders - and there does seem to be an element of self-preservation there, as much as he denies he wants to live.[/quote]

He's serving the Kingdom, for better or for worse. And, more importantly, there's a personal element. He says a few times that he doesn't have to do anything, he could stay home and let his mother nurse him. But he wants to have some sort of life, and that's the role he's fit for. Self-preservation, sure. It's not that he doesn't want to live, it's more that he doesn't care about dying, which isn't the same thing.

[quote name='mormont' post='1293577' date='Mar 30 2008, 13.18']I think the difference you're getting at is that he doesn't share Bayaz' arrogance, which is true. I can't imagine Bayaz ever asking himself 'why do I do this?'. His attitude is 'I do it because I am me and I can do anything I like'. ETA - on reflection, that should be 'anything I see fit to do'...[/quote]

Bayaz is the first of the magi, he can literally destroy people with a thought and has had thousands of years of life to lay the framework of his position in the world hierarchy. His arrogance is based in fact, there is noone more powerful. Glokta can't, literally can't, aspire to that level of arrogance.

Bayaz appears to have been a dick, and only a dick, since he was a young man. Glokta has shown plenty of examples of kindness, and other admirable qualities, both before and after the Gurkish prisons. I just can't see them as kindred spirits. :)

[delete this account pls]

Just finished it. Wow. The battle in the High Places. The duel between Logen and the Feared. The Siege of Adua. The Eaters chasing Jezal through the palace. So many incredible scenes. And the twists were fantastic. Logen worse than Bethod? Salem Rews? Tolomei? I can only echo everyone else and say - I never, ever saw those reveals coming.

The ending is as bleak as hell. All these people dead, over the course of three books, and for what? So that Bayaz can weaken his enemy Khalul. That's all, really. Everyone died so bayaz could take out the Eaters and put a new puppet on the throne. Brutal.

One thing I think I missed. Why does Bayaz hate Khalul so much? I get why Khalul hates him - he believes (probably correctly) that Bayaz murdered Juvens. So what's Bayaz's beef with him? It seems personal, morethan simple self preservation.

Giving the only real happy ending to Glokta. I can't say I'm dissapointed. Glokta was pretty close to my favourite character in the series, and his triumph fits in with the theme that the meanest, most ruthless sonofabitch usually comes out on top. And in the end, Glokta doesn't reject the dark path, but rather embraces it. This is what he is, this is what they made him, and screw the rest of the world.

Logen Ninefingers. I'm a bit in awe over what Joe did with that character. "There's nothing worse than a villain what thinks he's a hero." I was shocked when he killed Tul Duru. I was really, really shocked when he killed Crummock's son, and actually had to read it a few times, thinking I'd been mistaken. the end of his arc was just perfect.

Plenty of laugh out loud moments. From "That bitch talks to much", to Jezal and Logen's reunion ("How the hell did you get here?" "Long story."), Bayaz's relevation that he had dozens of 'Jezal's' primed and ready to go, including one called Brint :lol

And plenty of bittersweet moments. For a guy who barely talked at all over the course of three books, Grim Harding's death had a lot of impact for me. "I've always enjoyed our little talks" :cry:

I also think there were a few moments of genuine triumph, its just that they mostly happened for the minor characters. Shivers, for example, manages to be a bigger man, and reject the bloody road of vengeance. Vitari escapes the Inquisition with her children. And then there's ... well, I guess not that many people come out ahead, really.

I can see a lot of potential future storylines, and there's a few loose ends. A few interesting ideas for future novels could be Ferro's attack on Gurkhul from the Gurkish POV. Further adventures in the North, delving into how Bethod managed to make allies out of the Shanka. Jezal and Uthman teaming up to try and rebel against their respective puppet masters (remember from BTAH, Uthman is no more happy being Khalul's puppet than Jezal is being Bayaz's).

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Brady']One thing I think I missed. Why does Bayaz hate Khalul so much? I get why Khalul hates him - he believes (probably correctly) that Bayaz murdered Juvens. So what's Bayaz's beef with him? It seems personal, morethan simple self preservation.[/quote]

Khalul opposed Bayaz and accused him (probably in front of their brethren) of killing their master. And Khalul has been clearly working against Bayaz since then, which Bayaz, being the First of the Magi, probably considers a rather personal affront. Then there is the fact that the two of them were apparently rivals long before Bayaz betrayed his master.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Brady' post='1293948' date='Mar 30 2008, 21.53']Logen Ninefingers. I'm a bit in awe over what Joe did with that character. "There's nothing worse than a villain what thinks he's a hero." I was shocked when he killed Tul Duru. I was really, really shocked when he killed Crummock's son, and actually had to read it a few times, thinking I'd been mistaken. the end of his arc was just perfect.[/quote]

What i found even worse was his thoughts when he was at the funeral. There is a major chance that Logen is crazy, or cursed, and you can make excuses for that. What you can't make excuses for is his lack of sympathy/empathy/regret at Tul's funeral like there were hundreds of Tul Durus in the past and he has butchered them all.


[quote name='Brady' post='1293948' date='Mar 30 2008, 21.53']I also think there were a few moments of genuine triumph, its just that they mostly happened for the minor characters. Shivers, for example, manages to be a bigger man, and reject the bloody road of vengeance.[/quote]

I think that it was a bad but noble decision. If Shivers had been there then they could have killed Logen before he turned into the Bloody Nine. Now though Shivers might get caught up in Logens vendetta.

And Jon i just read the Tolmei passage the other day and your absolutely right. She smacked him about like a bitch.
The only thing I have to cling to is her saying something along the lines of "the years have dulled you"

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1293982' date='Mar 31 2008, 09.22']Khalul opposed Bayaz and accused him (probably in front of their brethren) of killing their master. And Khalul has been clearly working against Bayaz since then, which Bayaz, being the First of the Magi, probably considers a rather personal affront. Then there is the fact that the two of them were apparently rivals long before Bayaz betrayed his master.[/quote]

Ah OK. Well, that makes Bayaz an even bigger bastard really, doesn't it?


[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1294014' date='Mar 31 2008, 09.59']What i found even worse was his thoughts when he was at the funeral. There is a major chance that Logen is crazy, or cursed, and you can make excuses for that. What you can't make excuses for is his lack of sympathy/empathy/regret at Tul's funeral like there were hundreds of Tul Durus in the past and he has butchered them all.[/quote]

Yeah, Last Argument really, brutally stripped us (the readers) of any delusions we might have had about Logen. All of his little favourite sayings (and it was a great touch that the other characters like Jezal and Ferro began to parrot them as well) were revealed as total self serving bullshit. "You can never have too many knives." Yes you can. Only a killer needs a lot of knives. "You have to be realistic about these things." Logen is totally unrealistic about most things, especially himself. "There's only one choice, and it's no choice at all." Complete crap. Nobody made Logen do the things he did but Logen.

Heres a general question - we've all been pretty damning towards Ninefingers, but is the Dogman really much better? Sure, he's not as brutal and ruthless - not quite as much anyway - as Logen, but he treads a fairly similar path. The Dogman is given multiple opportunities to do what Shivers does, and turn his back on vengeance and violence, but he doesn't. He keeps on fighting, and killing, even when he doesn't know why. He keeps lying to himself - just one last fight, one last battle - when he knows just as well as Logen does that there's never an end to the wars and the bloodshed, and all a man can do is to rise above it, or walk down that path forever.

Black Dow is an interesting counterpoint to Logen. He's like Logen, but stripped of any self delusion. Black Dow knows what he is, and he accepts it. Beautifully illustrated when Logen refuses to sit in Skarling's Chair, claiming in his usual falsely humble way that the mud is more comfortable, then, when Logen returns to Carleon in the epilogue, he finds Dow sitting in the same chair, claiming he finds it preferable to sitting in the mud. Unlike Logen, Dow doesn't lie to himself, and doesn't pretend to be something he's not.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1294014' date='Mar 31 2008, 09.59']I think that it was a bad but noble decision. If Shivers had been there then they could have killed Logen before he turned into the Bloody Nine. Now though Shivers might get caught up in Logens vendetta.[/quote]

Well, he's already caught up in it, really. Logen butchered his brother, and the heartache of that killed his father. Nothing Shivers can do will change that. In the end, I think he makes the right choice. He copuld have taken his vengeance, but vengeance is worthless in the end, really. Violence just breeds more violence.

I think Shivers represents what Logen and the Dogman and the others used to be, when they were young. I think that's why the Dogman and others like him so much. He's them, before they became sullied and broken by all the killing and bloodshed.

[delete this account pls]

Just wanted to add; Joe, if your reading this, thanks for the superb read, and congratulations on a great piece of work.

[Dolorous Edd]

It is interesting to hear people's takes on Logen and Bayaz.

I still like Logen, despite the things he did and the things we learned about him in LAOK. Others clearly don't.

Bayaz, on the other hand, is the most powerful asshole in the world. He's just short of being truly evil; he doesn't seem to get off on others' pain (unlike many fantasy dark lords) but he does see all humans as insects and pawns.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge']Bayaz is amoral, and a whole bunch of people who read our genre think that sounds pretty cool, but faced with it, it's not cool. I would also agree with you that Bayaz, in being amoral, is close to evil, but he isn't actually evil per se (like Black Dow).[/quote]

As someone further upthread said, he may not be a Dark Lord, cackling madly and killing people for the hell of it, but show me someone like him in real life and I call him evil, no doubt in my mind.

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1294047' date='Mar 31 2008, 11.15']Don't go romanticising that cold-hearted bastard. IMO, Logen has a lot more humanity than Dow, except when the Bloody-Nine takes over.

I don't think Logen has "false" humility - I think it is real...he cares about other people, he wants his makeshift 'team' to bond together (see book two, going through the Old Empire), he cedes chiefship of the crew to Dogman, and supports Dogman in being chief.

I don't think Logen is lying to himself; it seemed pretty clear throughout that he wasn't "himself" when the Bloody-Nine took over (much like an alcoholic blackout or a multiple-personality disorder switching between personalities). That's why I don't "blame" him for killing Tul Duru - he tried to warn Tul that the Bloody-Nine was taking over and not to touch him, but accidents happen.[/quote]

Logen is definitely lying to himself, that's the whole point of Bethod's revelation that his drive for Kingship was more Logen's work than his own. Logen wanted the biggest name in the North, and I can't see how the things he did to achieve that can all be blamed on the Bloody Nine persona. As for the false humility - he accepts the Kingship, wears Bethod's gold chain, makes the Northmen kneel. When Red Hat questions the wisdom of leading them to Adua, Logen beats the crap out of him. When Logen returns North after the Siege of Adua is lifted, he intends to crush all resistance to his Kingship.

Black Dow - I'm certainly not trying to romanticize him, but I think he has humanity. Witness his moving speech at Tul Duru's funeral, for instance. He's a black hearted killer, no doubt, but so is Logen. Not all of Logen's atrocities can be blamed on the Bloody Nine. He couldn't have been the Bloody Nine for the whole time he worked at Bethod's side.

[Trebla]

Finshed the series last night. Wow. Awesome to have found a GREAT new author (thanks to this board! :D ) I've read my eyes out over the last week with the 3 books.

I saw most of Bayaz's machination's coming...but not the complete and utter ruthlessness. The V & B, Luthar on the throne, yes, but not Yoru Sulfur's eating Raynault, murdering the guard, etc. Nor his complete disdain for Juvens. He is completely power hungry and it appears as if the Seed made him more powerful or perhaps "re-charged" him judging by his more youthful appearence.

The book is filled with some damned tragic characters. Logen with the "devil" in him. He's remorseful but can't change what happens to him in battle. And battle is all he has. The Tul death (and also when he killed the boy with hammer) really crushed me, too. Yet Logen was haunted by it as well, He only acted hard because he was king and wanted to lead the men south. Also, I believe he very well knew what was going to happen when he went noth again. But the only reason he went was because he washeartbroken over Ferro and had no other place to go.

Glokta...scarily reminded me of myself after my 3rd back surgery. So kudos to the writer. :thumbsup:

[Lupigis]

[quote name='Brady' post='1294271' date='Mar 31 2008, 07.28']Logen is definitely lying to himself, that's the whole point of Bethod's revelation that his drive for Kingship was more Logen's work than his own.[/quote]

Sure, Logen is lying to himself, but why do you accept Bethod's statements at face value? Isn't he just doing in the open what Logen is doing in his mind, i.e. shifting his own part of the blame to someone else. The way I see it, they were in it together!

After all, if it was all Logens fault as Bethod implies, why did Bethod ally with the Shanka, attack Angland and so on after Logen was out of the game?

[ThRiNiDiR]

I've finished this book yesterday at 3,40A.M. Short on sleep I am today. I'm gathering my thoughts for a review.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Dolorous Edd' post='1294059' date='Mar 31 2008, 00.49']Bayaz, on the other hand, is the most powerful asshole in the world. He's just short of being truly evil; he doesn't seem to get off on others' pain (unlike many fantasy dark lords) but he does see all humans as insects and pawns.[/quote]

Here is the way i think of it. If you put Bayaz in Dows position then i think a lot of the time he would do the same thing only better. Look at that scene in the High Places, which i think depicts Dow at his most evil, when he burned those three men as an example. Would Bayaz have done any different ?

Yes

He would have found a way to turn their skins inside out using the Art and then put salt on them or something. Something so truly terrible that the battle would stall for a couple of days.

Still though i really can't imagine Bayaz raping and pillaging. I think he would see it as beneath him. Not that he wouldn't do it if he thought he had to but well he usually wont have to.