Last Argument of Kings SPOILER THREAD

[Crannogman]

Thanks for the reply, oh mighty Author.

Now, since I'm not quite foolhardy enough to risk being told to "read page 476, dumbass" again, I won't argue with the explanation given above. And indeed, I had picked up on some of that in my reading, or guessed at some of it at least. Good point on Bethod's control slipping, I'd forgotten that.

But I still think that compared to Before they are Hanged the final victories [i]felt[/i] a bit easy from this reader's point of view at least, because even though it's all explained perfectly in the post above (syncopathy for the win!) the end result basically remains that the Northmen and the Ghurkish do exactly what the Union forces expect them to do, are charged, and are beaten. Whereas what I found so refreshing about the war in BTaH is that Bethod as an enemy did [i]not[/i] have matchless resources and endless legions and a complete lack of a brain, but was active, wily and had the Union on the back foot despite being less numerous and strong. Even if it makes perfect sense he can't do that anymore, it does make the war much less interesting for me. (Yes, even then the Ghurkish were mainly good at looming on the horizon and human wave tactics.)

Though... I do admit the series as a whole was very good at evoking that atmosphere of the enemy seeming incredibly fearsome because he's the enemy, and unknown. In other books, fantasy or no, the enemy usually either -is- incredibly superhuman and fearsome, (and, if fantasy, usually beaten through a deus ex machina...) or the enemy is just regarded without any particular mystique, just an obstacle to be overcome, or if you see characters who -do- accord exaggerated powers to their enemies (Those Starks all ride direwolves!) the reader simply laughs at the foolish character for believing something so eminently silly.
These books were very good at making me share that perception, making me see the Northmen and the Ghurkish like the Union did. Mostly by strictly limiting the characters to Union or Union related PoVs and not giving the reader any real information about these enemies besides unreliable rumours, but also by doing a very good job of scetching the enemy as fearsome yet believable.
And this in turn necessitates less of a focus on the motivations and plans of the enemy to maintain that mystique and this leads to my thinking them rather passive and uninteresting other than as an obstacle in the last book. Hmm....

If I had an overal point with this, I think I lost it. Good thing this is the Internet, and rambling is allowed, right? Right?

[Hereward]

Napoleon was at Trafalgar? :stunned:

[Blue Roses]

[quote name='Hereward' post='1314648' date='Apr 15 2008, 12.51']Napoleon was at Trafalgar? :stunned:[/quote]


Perhaps he meant Waterloo. Perhaps all this praise is going to his head and he's feeling a little bit giddy? :P

[Joe Abercrombie]

Man, I look a real tool.

Now I'll have to write a revisionist parallel history version of the Napoleonic wars in which Bonaparte was a great admiral in order to make that post make sense.

Hmm. I've heard worse ideas.

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='Hereward' post='1314648' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.51']Napoleon was at Trafalgar? :stunned:[/quote]
You didn't know that Napoleon Scamaroni was a boatswain at Indomptable?

[Hereward]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1314668' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.28']Man, I look a real tool.

Now I'll have to write a revisionist parallel history version of the Napoleonic wars in which Bonaparte was a great admiral in order to make that post make sense.

Hmm. I've heard worse ideas.[/quote]

Well OK, but as long as the French still lose. There are limits, after all.

[Blue Roses]

[quote name='Hereward' post='1314674' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.36']Well OK, but as long as the French still lose. There are limits, after all.[/quote]


Perhaps we can call it Best Served Wet?

[Mexal]

I am satisfied.

I don't know if there is anything more to really say. It's been discussed a lot and like most, I was happy with the way things ended because it's not what I expected. As someone said above, it seems like everyone ended up worse than they started and that's not something you ever really see in books like this.

Thanks Joe.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Look someone explain it to me because i'm not getting it. How on earth did the main ( and i stress [i]main[/i]) characters end up worse them when they began ?

[Filippa Eilhart]

who ended up worse?

[Mexal]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1314703' date='Apr 15 2008, 07.51']Look someone explain it to me because i'm not getting it. How on earth did the main ( and i stress [i]main[/i]) characters end up worse them when they began ?[/quote]

Logen ended up alone with no friends and everyone hating him even more than they already did.

Jezel ended up as a puppet king with a beautiful queen that hates him while the love of his life married a cripple.

Ferro seems like she'll end up like Tolomei, consumed by vengeance and part of the Other Side.

West is dead.

The only 2 characters that did well was Glotka and Bayaz.

[Filippa Eilhart]

[quote name='Mexal' post='1314713' date='Apr 15 2008, 14.58']Logen ended up alone with no friends and everyone hating him even more than they already did.[/quote]

he started up alone with no friends, and we don't know if he's hated more than he was; in fact, he's acquired some new Union friends.

[quote]Jezel ended up as a puppet king with a beautiful queen that hates him while the love of his life married a cripple.[/quote]

but he's king, and he's not the empty-minded idiot he used to be.

[quote]Ferro seems like she'll end up like Tolomei, consumed by vengeance and part of the Other Side.[/quote]
she was about to be eaten when we first met her, being alive, and on the way to her vengence is a major improvement.

[quote]West is dead.[/quote]

I'll grant you that, although I don't know if West is consiered the main character?

[mormont]

[quote name='Filippa Eilhart' post='1314764' date='Apr 15 2008, 14.38']he started up alone with no friends, and we don't know if he's hated more than he was; in fact, he's acquired some new Union friends.[/quote]

Well, he started out [i]thinking[/i] he had no friends, but this time they're genuinely either dead or (in the case of Black Dow) enemies. With the exception of Dogman, and his loyalties are questionable.

Logen's 'new Union friends' are of similarly questionable loyalty and use, frankly. And he has some new enemies there too.

At the least I'd say that Logen is no better off than he was. Worse off is debatable, maybe.

[quote]but he's king, and he's not the empty-minded idiot he used to be.[/quote]

Jezal is a king, yes, but acutely aware of his powerlessness and his status as a tool of Bayaz and subject to his whim. Again, I can see the argument that he started off powerless, but he [i]liked[/i] it then, and he liked being empty-headed. Now he doesn't. He has consolations (a pretty wife, wealth) but he had those before and greater freedom too.

[quote]she was about to be eaten when we first met her, being alive, and on the way to her vengence is a major improvement.[/quote]

I could accept that from some points of view Ferro is better off than when the book opened: she has more power, at least. But she's not better off than she was at some points [i]during[/i] the series...

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Mexal' post='1314713' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.58']Logen ended up alone with no friends and everyone hating him even more than they already did.[/quote]

He never had any friend. Dogman says it at the end, how he had forgotten what it was really like to be around the Bloody Nine. And Dogman is his closest friend. Like some one else said his new best friend is the King of the Union thats a definite improvement.

[quote name='Mexal' post='1314713' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.58']Jezel ended up as a puppet king with a beautiful queen that hates him while the love of his life married a cripple.[/quote]

Bah the love of Jezals life is Jezal and now he gets to indulge his romanticism by becoming a Great King, Father of the Nation. Friend to the People. He will have statues and glory and boundless luxury if he doesn't step over the line ( and it a a pretty wide line) and call down the wrath of Bayaz. And he thinks his wife likes him. From purely his point of view thats a good thing. It certainly wont be after she gives birth to their second son but for now its got to be the high point of his life.

[quote name='Mexal' post='1314713' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.58']Ferro seems like she'll end up like Tolomei, consumed by vengeance and part of the Other Side.[/quote]

She was always consumed by vengeance. Only now she has the power to do something about it.

[quote name='Mexal' post='1314713' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.58']West is dead.[/quote]

Alright on a balance being alive probably beats being dead.

But if you asked West whether he wanted to spend the rest of his life ( a long one) as a middle ranked soldier with no respect and family issues, or a short one that end in serious history-book glory having patched up the family problems i think i kno which he would choose.

We will all die but he was lucky enough to have a great death.

[quote name='Mexal' post='1314713' date='Apr 15 2008, 13.58']The only 2 characters that did well was Glotka and Bayaz.[/quote]

And Ardee. She did really well.


[quote name='mormont' post='1314775' date='Apr 15 2008, 14.47']Jezal is a king, yes, but acutely aware of his powerlessness and his status as a tool of Bayaz and subject to his whim. Again, I can see the argument that he started off powerless, but he [i]liked[/i] it then, and he liked being empty-headed. Now he doesn't. He has consolations (a pretty wife, wealth) but he had those before and greater freedom too.[/quote]

He has the glory and has always wanted that.

[quote name='mormont' post='1314775' date='Apr 15 2008, 14.47']I could accept that from some points of view Ferro is better off than when the book opened: she has more power, at least. But she's not better off than she was at some points [i]during[/i] the series...[/quote]

Do you really think Logen x Ferro could ever have worked ?

[Mexal]

[quote name='Sheep']He never had any friend. Dogman says it at the end, how he had forgotten what it was really like to be around the Bloody Nine. And Dogman is his closest friend. Like some one else said his new best friend is the King of the Union thats a definite improvement.[/quote]

That's simply not true. Dogman even said that when Logen walked into the camp, he had a rush of excitement or happiness. I don't remember the word. They respected him.

I guess you can consider being friends with Jezel an improvement but I don't think he would.

[quote name='Sheep']Bah the love of Jezals life is Jezal and now he gets to indulge his romanticism by becoming a Great King, Father of the Nation. Friend to the People. He will have statues and glory and boundless luxury if he doesn't step over the line ( and it a a pretty wide line) and call down the wrath of Bayaz. And he thinks his wife likes him. From purely his point of view thats a good thing. It certainly wont be after she gives birth to their second son but for now its got to be the high point of his life.[/quote]

He's a coward and he knows it. He's a puppet and he knows it. I don't think he's all that worried about glory now, nor about indulging in his romanticism. He has seen what it is to be a king. He has found out that his whole life was a lie. He has a wife who hates him and even though he can indulge now, it's highly doubtful that the situation will last. Maybe from the standpoint he had early in Book 1, this is his dream but he has changed a lot since then and I don't think he enjoys being a powerless puppet to a man who could easily destroy him with one movement, nor do I think he enjoys being told what to do by a cripple who he despises.

[quote name='Sheep']She was always consumed by vengeance. Only now she has the power to do something about it.[/quote]

My point is she was going to end up like Tolomei and that's not a happy ending.

[quote name='Sheep']But if you asked West whether he wanted to spend the rest of his life ( a long one) as a middle ranked soldier with no respect and family issues, or a short one that end in serious history-book glory having patched up the family problems i think i kno which he would choose.[/quote]

I'm glad you know what he would choose cause I don't. I think anyone would rather live then die to a nasty sickness like that after he watched thousands of his men slaughtered. But hey, that's just me.

[quote name='Sheep']And Ardee. She did really well.[/quote]

I think we have different definitions of "really well."

[Filippa Eilhart]

[i]I think we have different definitions of "really well."[/i]

She likes Glokta. Maybe she doesn't love him, but whom has she ever loved, and what would be her chances of finding someone she loved?

[IheartTesla]

I havent posted my thoughts about the book, which I hope to in the near future. But a short comment about the characters. While it is debatable whether Ardee is better off or worse, Glotka and Bayaz seem to have come out of it ok.

Regarding the others like Jezal, West, Logen and Ferro there is no question I felt sad after seeing the ends of their story arcs. Ferro is still consumed by never-ending hatred and worse, hearing voices in her head. Jezal himself says he liked it better when he was playing cards with his fellow officers and dreaming of future prospects. West is wasting away, he'll probably live a long, painful life. Logen, that schitzophrenic psycopath, thought he had something with Ferro, but alas. And his carefully constructed delusions about his life are also unravelling (at least to the reader, I dont know whats going on in his mind). Sadness abounds.

PS - Is Logen dead? I though Joe. A left it ambiguous but I cant be sure.

[Shaun Snow]

[quote]PS - Is Logen dead? I though Joe. A left it ambiguous but I cant be sure.[/quote]

I'd be surprised if Logen died from the fall, but his status was left up in the air. Literally.

[delete this account pls]

I thought the same. He might have survived the fall, he might have died. Either way, it's kind of a sad way to end his story.

[Maia]

Finally read it and loved it! At long last we get a story of a victorius Evil Overlord from the POVs of his minions ;). Now all that is missing is an occasional fantasy novel where the side that the POVs fight on loses - and which is neither the millionth re-telling of Arthuriana or another well-known myth nor a prequel. Funny, how it is possible in _any_ other genre but fantasy... and lately SF too. Speculative fiction, foresooth!

I also can happily pat myself on the back because I did see from the beginning that Bayaz was the owner of Valint and Balk. It is very refreshing to see an immortal villain with some clever and practical notions.

Re: deaths of characters, I am normally all for a few people buying it along the way, just to maintain some believability and to illustrate that yes, the risks that they are taking are very real. However, Logen's band adequately filled that niche for me. I also assumed that both Logen and West did die in the end. While the notion that Logen may have survived yet again is disappointing, IMHO, I can still cling to my first interpretation.

On the whole, I really admired the resolution. People have been saying that a lot of it was predictable - and in a way it was. I suspected most of Bayaz's background and plots, other people saw his plans for Jezal, I have been half-expecting Glokta to become an Arch-Lector and Bayaz's right hand in the Union, etc. But on the other hand, there were major curve balls, like the truth about Logen's personality, the whole extent of Bayaz's grip on the Union and the depth of his perfidy, Jezal's developement, West's imminent death _after_ he won, etc. Nor do I see that the things were tied too neatly. In fact, IMHO, there are plenty of open questions or maybe even plotholes left and I'll list them in no particular order:

1. Why is the magic going out of the world? I mean, it seems that it is not that difficult to touch the Other side if guys at the University could summon some demonic aid. And also, Bayaz's ritual would have opened a crack, even if for a short time. He himself was re-invigorated by it - wouldn't magic in general be, too? Also, why didn't this supposed weakening affect Kanedias's creations or powers of the Eaters? What are the Eaters, BTW and why would it be impossible for Khalul to replace them? Are they people with demonic heritage? Are they prospective magic-users?

2. Why did Bayaz kill Tolomei? I understand that he killed Juvens, likely both due to his jealousy of Khalul and his desire to become a top dog. Then he killed Kanedias because he had blamed him to save his own face. But why Tolomei? Bayaz didn't learn nearly as much of Kanedias's art as he could have and with Tolomei at his side surely he could have achieved more? Nor did she seem to have a personality to vie with him for power. Hm...

3. Why on earth did Bayaz let Bethod and his sorceress go in the beginning? I used to think that the war with Angland was somehow part of his plan, but now I just can't see it. Nor is it likely anymore that Bayaz would have been stopped by his own promise of safe conduct. He knew that confrontation with Khalul and the Gurkish was coming, he knew that Bethod would attack the Union and possibly mess his own plans, so why on earth didn't he kill both of them where they stood?
For that matter who was that sorceress Caurib? She was not Khalul's agent as I suspected, so what was her deal in all of this? I also wonder if she is truly dead. Magic-users don't seem to die easily in this world.

4. The whole thing with mysterious supposedly royal orphans was clever, no doubt, but why go through the whole rigmarole instead of just subjugating Prince Raynault? Compromise him enough, make him kill Ladisla and he would have been as much in the palm of Bayaz's hand as Jezal _and_ being a more capable man he would have been actually useful. I am somewhat surprised that Feekt didn't do it in fact. Bayaz may have been distracted and lost his sense of time, but not Feekt. Was it some act of final defiance that he died without arranging a successor for himself? And the timing of Raynault's murder was also highly unfortunate. If Bayaz hadn't been very lucky, he may have lost the Union - and he needs it as a tool.

5. Why didn't Khalul do anything to remove Bayaz's pieces? I mean, it may have been a "religious" war for him and his Hundred Words, but he did understand the value of empire as a tool. After all, he built his own. And his Eaters would seem to have been ideal for removal of Bayaz's stoodges and pushing Union into chaos. For that matter, how comes that Uthman could semi-openly defy Khalul?
I agree with Abercombie's explanations about Bethod's defeat - but Khalul and the the Gurkish offered a lack-lustre perfomance as serious opponents, IMHO.

6. Why wasn't Bayaz bothered by all the radioactivity that he left in Adua? Couldn't it kill his minions? Sure, Jezal may have been expendable in the beginning, but it isn't like Bayaz could easily replace him now. Another mysterious bastard just wouldn't be believable. And Glokta is really frail as it is - and there is nobody with similar ability to take over. Or is it that just people who were in the way/near the blast could be affected? If it was real radiocativity then it would have made sense to use all these Gurkish prisoners to clear the city... but since Bayaz didn't stop Jezal grubbing through the rubble maybe it wasn't? Or did he somehow protect Jezal?
But still, I'd think that leaving somebody as frail as Glokta in charge without a possible successor is risky.
I now wonder if West has been somehow murdered, too. Maybe he was inconvenient to Bayaz? But then, putting him into the harness probably wouldn't have been that difficult either.

7. Marovia and Sult weren't believable characters.
Marovia's blabbing about rights of the people seemed totally anachronistic. It is one thing to want some kind of representation - a parlament or "general states" and aim to put some limits on the power of feodals and the king. But his "rights of labourers" rethoric is totally out there for the setting and for a man who managed to reach his position. Particularly since he seemed both realistic and shrewd in his interview with Glokta.

Sult is also a strange and uneasy melange of surpsising acuity and implausible dumbness, according to requirements of the plot. I mean, I can understand his drive to free them from Bayaz, but how did he figure that they could be free from tutelage of the mages with Khalul and the Gurkish knocking on the door? I mean, he knew about the Eaters. Now from our objective POV in the end of the trilogy there isn't much to chose from between Bayaz and Khalul, but subjectively Khalul must have seemed much worse, with his openly cannibalistic cult. And there is also the fact that they would have been subject to Gurkish Empire _in addition_ to Khalul. So, huh?
Also, I don't understand why Bayaz allowed Sult to run around causing trouble after the elections rather than quietly killing him. Sult was certainly sabotaging resistance to the Gurkish and was a threat to Jezal. It is obvious that he was just there as a plot prop for Glokta's adventures.