News from the insane world of Terry Goodkind

[Scaledun]

Know what the scary thing is? I know this guy who actually insists Goodkind is a good writer, that his characters are "realistic" and his plots "compelling". Even me pointing out to him that Goodkind's done the "in defeating one horror we unleash the next" GM-who-wants-to-continue-the-campaign thing SEVERAL TIMES did nothing to sway him...

...oh, and he thinks Martin is "too unfocused" and "goes for cheap emotional shots".

[Werthead]

Well, make sure he keeps taking his pills and visiting the doctor and everything should be okay in the end. However, if he degenerates and starts reading L. Ron Hubbard he may be a terminal case.

[The Stranger]

Xanrn, god speed, you red emperor.

so, since I only read the first book and I want to truly appreciate the shittiness of this man and his works, could anyone post a *brief* synopsis of the series?

IIRC, sand is really important, right?

[Kingslayer]

so, since I only read the first book and I want to truly appreciate the shittiness of this man and his works

For some reason, that has me cracking up.

[haLobEnder]

I read the first 4 or 5 books back in the day when I could do so without going insane from the redundancy of fantasy themes. I actually admit I enjoyed the first few books though it steadily degenerated from there (much like another author who has mastered the art of expanding his series into double-digit crapfests). I bought the 5th and 6th books from the clearance bin of my local bookstore, intending to eventually read them but never got around to it but ended up selling them when I finally figured out that Goodkind meant the series not as a 'fantasy' per say but as a metaphorical blow job to Ayn Rand .

[Voland]

Xanrn,

You don't happen to be named Beerdrinker at the GK board?

see allot of fun beginning fantasy authors mentioned so I wont really add to them. For when you feel the urge to step up so to speak here are some suggestions.

A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin - high quality lots of fun and great depth

The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson - amazing world building with allot of grit

The Prince of Nothing by Scott Bakker - an author that can just awe his readers

Perdido Street Station by China Mieville - what an imagination, one of the best recent books.

Tad Williams & Moon make a good bridge from the Goodkind/Edding camp to the Martin/Erikson standard

[werewolfv2]

Xanrn,

You don't happen to be named Beerdrinker at the GK board?

gods, i love this quote from over there

..I am a coniessuer of fantasy and SF...Mr. Goodkind ranks tied for second on my all time list of fantasy and SF authors...not to many books can make me tear up...

[David Forbes]

Ah, excellent. In that case he is totally by Steven Erikson, whose advance from Transworld was allegedly £400,000. And that's UK pounds, so more like $700,000 dollars. It was the biggest advance for a fantasy author in UK history at the time. Although that was for nine books.

Well, no. I can't stand Goodkind, but he is worth more than ten million dollars at this point. He repeatedly lands on the besteller lists (though I have no idea why). According to you, Goodkind got $250,000 for one book. If your numbers for Erickson are correct (I have no idea one way or the other), that's for the series, and he hasn't been paid all of that sum yet. It works out to about $77,777 or thereabouts per book. Nice, but hardly a record. And he only gets paid for each book upon "delivery and acceptance" -- that is, when he submits the manuscript and the publisher accepts it without further revisions (only minor editorial changes). So he hasn't been paid for anything past The Bonehunters.

I also heard that Erikson's sales of Gardens of the Moon were so bad in the US that Tor cancelled hardcover printings for the rest of the series. Hey, I love the books -- I've read up through MT, which I had to order from the UK since it's not available in the US yet -- but he's proving not to be very popular here, so far.

[Jaxom 1974]

We all know Goodkind is a hack with delusions. Once you've said that and taken the piss out of him for a few pages, there's nothing left to talk about. Nobody seriously contends he's anything else, and nobody expects him to write a good book. So when he doesn't, what's to write about? And when he goes on one of his egotrips, well again we expected that to happen, so what's to write about? Laugh at, yes, but you can only do that for so long. It doesn't sustain a thread, only debate does that.

You're a wise man, mormont, my firend...I was blind, but now I see!

And were, I was about to quote that exact line! How'd that person NOT get banned from Terryland? Doesn't he know his favorite author doesn't write fantasy???

[Brys]

Something very scary - two decent authors were mentioned by a poster who seems to actually have enjoyed Goodkind:

[brust] is an authorial god, not unlike Terry Pratchett or Roger Zelazny.

1. I'm surprised that they haven't been banned for that

2. How can someone have read Zelazny and still like Goodkind?

Wait - it's not just one case!

Did you say Roger Zelazny? You got my interest piqued. Zelazny's Amber was nothing short of amazing for the plot

(though this one goes on to claim the series is lacking as a whole, but saying that on a Goodkind forum!)

Zelazny was my favorite. Gone too soon, that one

There are even some members with the screenname "Smeagol" - surprised that's allowed.

Can I believe what I'm seeing?

George R.R. Martin is probably the best of all... no one writes realistic fantasy better, his series is called A Song of Ice and Fire, book one being A Game of Thrones.

Has anyone gone over their to troll the boards from here, with a name of Elessar?

Back to the usual now:

I haven't read much Fantasy, other than SOT of course. I've picked up a few others... but I just could not get into some highly reccommended books like Wizard: Apprentice (or whatever it was called), Eddings' Belgariad (Pawn of prophesy), or even book 1 of WOT.

Yes, highly recommended

He can't even get the name write of the best of them (Magician: Apprentice).

Who is beedrinker?

He's obviously from these boards:

"Originally Posted by mystar

I wonder what the idle curiousity is all the sudden...."

*hehe*

[Werthead]

Well, no. I can't stand Goodkind, but he is worth more than ten million dollars at this point. He repeatedly lands on the besteller lists (though I have no idea why). According to you, Goodkind got $250,000 for one book. If your numbers for Erickson are correct (I have no idea one way or the other), that's for the series, and he hasn't been paid all of that sum yet. It works out to about $77,777 or thereabouts per book. Nice, but hardly a record. And he only gets paid for each book upon "delivery and acceptance" -- that is, when he submits the manuscript and the publisher accepts it without further revisions (only minor editorial changes). So he hasn't been paid for anything past The Bonehunters.

I also heard that Erikson's sales of Gardens of the Moon were so bad in the US that Tor cancelled hardcover printings for the rest of the series. Hey, I love the books -- I've read up through MT, which I had to order from the UK since it's not available in the US yet -- but he's proving not to be very popular here, so far.

Hmm. Recalling that article (in a 2002 issue of SFX), it merely says that £400K was the advance (and a record one for the UK fantasy publishing industry in 1999) for Erikson's first book, but later notes that Erikson sold GotM and, on the strength of that book, Transworld offered a nine-book contract. So the advance might have been for GotM alone and then another (undisclosed) sum was paid for the nine-book contract. The wording wasn't as clear as might be liked. But indeed c. £50K per book would be nowhere near a record in the UK publishing industry.

You are in error about Erikson though. GotM, DG and MoI are all available in hardcover from Tor. There was a question mark about HoC, but it is now listed as being a hardcover release from Tor in August 2006. I think the series wasn't selling as fast as was liked in the US, but sales are picking up now (Erikson said in a recent interview that Tor are satisfied with the numbers and that's why they sent him out on a US mini-tour for MoI).

Don't suppose you want to give us a ballpark figure for what your advance was?

[Beppie]

I took a look at that thread, and you know, if some people's lives became better due to reading Goodkind, more power to them, etc. I did find it scary though, how many of those people took Goodkind's portrayal of libertarian/communist society as some kind of truth (I've been reading about Nietzsche lately-- he'd probably call it a "noble lie"). I mean, I've known libertarians who admit that Goodkind is full of poo regarding his portrayal of the utopian libertarian society. It just bewilders me that people think his books are full of facts, even if they think they are facts about "human spirit" or something.

I actually think that what a lot of people describe here is their first experience with really reading a book for pleasure, or reading fantasy, which can be a pretty great experience if you're in a bad spot, even with a mediocre author (yes, I would say that Goodkind's first books are mediocre, not bad-- they're enjoyable enough in their way, until the political diatribe starts). Finding something you really enjoy can spur you on to do better in your own life, it's just a shame that these people seem to have swallowed whole the lie that in order to improve yourself you must subscribe to libertarian political ideologies and NOTHING ELSE. No one with socialist leanings ever made a go of their lives (because they all went off to join the evil emperor, y'know).

And you know, I say any message board can have whatever rules they want; I moderate at one that has fairly strict rules about what you can say in some regards with a good reason. However, to have rules like that for an adult discussion of a group of novels... well, sure whoever moderates that board has the right to impose those rules, but how ridiculous! To use a GRRM reference, it's like when Cersei wants to cut out the tongue of anyone who repeats the rumours about her and Jaime-- trying to suppress something lends it credence.

[Voland]

I actually saw something I agree with

The only other author i put on Goodkinds level is Elizabeth Hayden- Symphony of Ages series

[David Forbes]

Well, I was just going off of numbers I saw here. And Deadhouse Gates was only out in trade paper -- I guess Tor had a change of heart if sales picked up after that.

My advance was $10,000 per book. Above average for a first novelist, but certainly not a record (and not something I can live on, either -- but I do hope to get there in a couple of years!).

[Brys]

I took a look at that thread, and you know, if some people's lives became better due to reading Goodkind, more power to them, etc. I did find it scary though, how many of those people took Goodkind's portrayal of libertarian/communist society as some kind of truth (I've been reading about Nietzsche lately-- he'd probably call it a "noble lie"). I mean, I've known libertarians who admit that Goodkind is full of poo regarding his portrayal of the utopian libertarian society. It just bewilders me that people think his books are full of facts, even if they think they are facts about "human spirit" or something.

I'm a libertarian, and still have to find one thing that I agree with Goodkind on. I don't think Goodkind even understands the concept of liberalism, which is about freedom of the individual, and therefore there is nothing wrong with being communist, taking drugs etc, so long as it doesn't harm other people. But Goodkind seems to think that we shouldn't have freedom of thought (let alone freedom of expression). This is what happens when underacheivers discover half thought out philosophy which lacks all respect.

No one with socialist leanings ever made a go of their lives (because they all went off to join the evil emperor, y'know).

The irony is that Goodkind would probably condemn the Liberal Democrat party in the UK for being collectivists and evil, while applauding the illiberal Conservative party (or even Blair and his Labour party) for helping freedom of the individual by locking everyone up.

[Ahimsa]

gods, i love this quote from over there

..I am a coniessuer of fantasy and SF...Mr. Goodkind ranks tied for second on my all time list of fantasy and SF authors...not to many books can make me tear up...

That made me laugh too, especially because it would have pissed off the author.. Remember, according to TG "My primary interest is in telling stories that are fun to read and make people think. That puts my books in a genre all their own."

Now that I think about it, I guess he's right: his books are the only books I've ever read that were fun to read and made me think. Douche bag.

[Werthead]

Well, I was just going off of numbers I saw here. And Deadhouse Gates was only out in trade paper -- I guess Tor had a change of heart if sales picked up after that.

My advance was $10,000 per book. Above average for a first novelist, but certainly not a record (and not something I can live on, either -- but I do hope to get there in a couple of years!).

Well, Amazon.com has the DG hardcover listed. I know the US market is able to do things the UK could never do, like publish a hardcover if the paperback sells enough, but this seems odd. OTOH, there wasn't a hardback DG in the UK (or Canada too, I think). Memories of Ice was the first UK hardback release for the series IIRC. Interesting stuff.

Owch! Converting dollars to pounds, I'm actually earning more money than that (working in a shop, nothing too great) and I'm barely above the UK minimum wage. Well, I suppose no-one really gets into writing for the money...

By coincidence, there's a film on at the moment, Final Curtain, about a first-time novelist struggling to make a living who finally 'sells-out' and writes a cheesy biography of a gameshow host (played by Peter O'Toole) to earn some proper money as a writer.

[Beppie]

I'm a libertarian, and still have to find one thing that I agree with Goodkind on. I don't think Goodkind even understands the concept of liberalism, which is about freedom of the individual, and therefore there is nothing wrong with being communist, taking drugs etc, so long as it doesn't harm other people. But Goodkind seems to think that we shouldn't have freedom of thought (let alone freedom of expression). This is what happens when underacheivers discover half thought out philosophy which lacks all respect.

As I understand it there is a difference between libertarianism and liberalism. Both believe in social freedom, but libertarians believe that "the government that governs best is the government that governs least." They think that almost all taxation is theft, that as much as possible should be privatised. Usually they will be in favour of a low, flat rate of tax for all people (8-10%) which funds the military, and sometimes roads and public education up to high school. The idea is that it is immoral to take taxes for any other purposes because people should have the right to choose how their money is spent, in accordance with their own ideologies (unless of course you're a pacifist, in which case you still have to give tax to the military). Libertarians are especially utterly opposed to any kind of state welfare system, and believe that private industry should be as unregulated as possible, with the pay and conditions of workers individually negotiated with their far more powerful employers, although they do of course believe in some safeguards against outright slavery (the extent of these depends on the Libertarian). Liberals will argue that the only people who have true freedom under this sort of system are the rich, because everyone else lives at the mercy of their employer.

Liberals on the other hand (and this doesn't include the Australian Liberal Party, who are all conservatives), believe that all people should have the same basic level of freedom, and that things like public health, education and general wellbeing are important if we are to all have this basic level. If some redistribution of wealth is needed in order to attain that, then that is okay. Liberals believe that taxation should be determined according to need, and that it is okay to tax higher income people at a higher rate than lower income people, with the justification that people on higher incomes benefit more from our social structure than people on lower incomes. Libertarians (like Goodkind) would argue that this is punishing those who work hardest, stealing their money to benefit those who work less hard.

The irony is that Goodkind would probably condemn the Liberal Democrat party in the UK for being collectivists and evil, while applauding the illiberal Conservative party (or even Blair and his Labour party) for helping freedom of the individual by locking everyone up.

In terms of British politics, Goodkind is probably most similar to Margaret Thatcher, than any politician around today. While Libertarians do tend to vote for conservative parties, since conservative parties tend to spend less on welfare and public health etc, most of them dislike all major parties, as all of them tend to have pretty large governments.

[Ahimsa]

That does fit with Goodkind. I do happen to know that he spends a large part of his time in Nevada, for tax reasons.

[David Forbes]

Well, Amazon.com has the DG hardcover listed. I know the US market is able to do things the UK could never do, like publish a hardcover if the paperback sells enough, but this seems odd. OTOH, there wasn't a hardback DG in the UK (or Canada too, I think). Memories of Ice was the first UK hardback release for the series IIRC. Interesting stuff.

Owch! Converting dollars to pounds, I'm actually earning more money than that (working in a shop, nothing too great) and I'm barely above the UK minimum wage. Well, I suppose no-one really gets into writing for the money...

By coincidence, there's a film on at the moment, Final Curtain, about a first-time novelist struggling to make a living who finally 'sells-out' and writes a cheesy biography of a gameshow host (played by Peter O'Toole) to earn some proper money as a writer.

Actually, the average advance for a first novelist is somewhere south of $5,000. Children's books are usually worse. JK Rowling got something like $2,500 for the first HP novel.

The idea is to earn out the advance and get an income stream on royalties, as well as increase advances for later books by having earlier books sell well.