Babylon 5 Rewatch Pt. 2

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='mandy_k' post='1301854' date='Apr 5 2008, 04.12']In that case, you can add another flaw. According to timelines, by 2260 Delenn is about sixty years old. And she still hasn't outgrown the limitations of the Vorlon's influences. I think that qualifies as a flaw ;)[/quote]
A Minbari flaw, which she overcomes, rather than her own personal flaw. The humans in the series seemed the only race in which nature varied dramatically between individuals and this was illustrated well in the episode (I can't remember which) in which Sinclair makes a demonstration of Earth's various religions. It is said that this diversity is the Earther's greatest strength. None of the other races tend to deviate much from the natures of their fellows.

[quote name='Blanc de Wert '79' post='1302079' date='Apr 5 2008, 12.23']The canonicity of the RPG materials is dubious (JMS provided the information to Mongoose, Mongoose then pissed him off by publishing [b]B5[/b] fiction without his consent and now the status of the Mongoose material is in doubt), but in the [b]B5[/b] RPG it is stated that the Vorlons took a much more direct hand in the manipulation of the Minbari as a species than any other race. Essentially they were grooming the Minbari to be their successors in the same way that the Shadows did with the Drakh. The Minbari were the first race among whom the Vorlons created telepaths, for example, but the original Minbari telepaths conquered the rest of the species and nearly challenged the Vorlons themselves before the Vorlons had to step in and swat them down (this is why the numbers of telepaths among any given race is so minute compared to the size of the population). There is a rather amusing bit where the Vorlons have to blast the Minbari back to the stone age, wait a few millennia, and then start tutoring them again from scratch.

Of course, JMS may rule (or retcon) all of this as being bollocks, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.[/quote]This would make sense considering the two races attitudes towards one another. It also appears that the Minbari show a negotiating attitude to all other races from a position of strength, however they have always seemed to fear and revere the Vorlon more than any other race. Perhaps because they know that the Vorlon are capable of going to extreme lengths to achieve thier ends.

Other races, especially humans, often seem ambivalent about the Vorlons, except to not their absence at critical stages.

[Werthead]

[b]4.10: [i]Racing Mars[/i]
[/b]So, Sheridan takes a day off and gets into a punch-up with Garibaldi, who is clearly ACTING WEIRD. As someone else said, it's really a shame that the concerns other characters had with Sheridan's messianic tendencies weren't explored in greater detail so as to make Garibaldi's actions more credible. Oh well. A guy called Wade turns up, who for some reason looks like he should be in Duran Duran. Luckily he isn't here to belt out 'Rio', but instead to forge a vague alliance of convenience with Garibaldi.

Meanwhile, Franklin and Marcus meet their contact, Captain Jack (no relation to the [b]Doctor Who[/b] character), and learn that they are to infiltrate Mars disguised as a married couple ('disguise' being a relative term as Marcus for some reason is walking around in his full Ranger outfit). They also learn that news of the Shadow War has not been widely disseminated within the Earth Alliance, and no-one on Mars has a clue what was going on. However, Captain Jack turns out to be under the control of the mysterious parasite-thing that we saw on Londo in the future and on the Regent at the end of [i]Epiphanies[/i]. SHENANIGANS are afoot!

A pretty good episode, turning up the heat on the Garibaldi situation and the stuff on Mars is quite entertaining. The quality of the Mars CGI varies immensely from the 'acceptably good' to the 'absolutely appalling'. Sigh. Yeah, Joe, going with the cheaper CGI house turned out really well, didn't it?

[b]4.11: [i]Lines of Communication
[/i][/b]A race allied to the Minbari, the Norsai (who for some reason are using Drazi ships), are getting the shit kicked out of them by unknown aliens. Delenn takes a bunch of White Stars out to investigate and learns that the aliens are the Drakh, former servants of the Shadows. A Minbari religious caste member wants to ally to the Drakh, but the Drakh are more interested in vapourising Delenn, whom they blame (along with Sheridan) for the Shadows' exodus from the Galaxy. Cue a mediocre space battle and Delenn realising that she needs to pay closer attention to events back on Minbar, where the tensions between the castes are moving towards open civil war. Meanwhile, on Mars Franklin and Marcus are doing some rather direct diplomacy and Franklin is getting laid by the (female) head of the Mars resistance.

Again, not a bad episode, although the Drakh is a very bad costume design (hence the lame CGI blurring to make it appear more alien) and Forell joins the list of "lame Minbari actors". I'm not sure why so many of these actors think, "Religious Minbari? I'll play him lame and ineffective then,". Very strange. Seeing Delenn kick some arse is good fun, but the CGI is really not very good in the battle between the Drakh and the White Stars. These Netter Digital guys don't seem to have been too bad so far, but this episode's space battle would have been unconvincing and cheesy back in Season 1.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Werthead']'disguise' being a relative term as Marcus for some reason is walking around in his full Ranger outfit[/quote]

IIRC most (all?) Rangers seen in the course of the series walk around in uniform and proudly displaying their Ranger insignia. For a semi-secret intelligence gathering organisation they sure aren't too concerned about being inconspicuous.

Of course Marcus also explained that they put the emphasis on the philosophical aspects of their training (and, I guess, on how to beat the shit out of other people using oversized fishing poles...).

[quote name='Werthead']The quality of the Mars CGI varies immensely from the 'acceptably good' to the 'absolutely appalling'. Sigh. Yeah, Joe, going with the cheaper CGI house turned out really well, didn't it?[/quote]

I never liked any of the "planetary CGI" shots thoughout the series, they all looked extremely fake.

[quote name='Werthead']and Forell joins the list of "lame Minbari actors"[/quote]

I was going to bring up this guy when you complained about Calenn earlier. I think a lot of these guest actors tried to emulate Bill Mumy's portrayal of Lennier but didn't quite pull it of (or maybe Lennier works better because as a regular we get the chance to see more sides of his character).

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1302692' date='Apr 6 2008, 07.23']IIRC most (all?) Rangers seen in the course of the series walk around in uniform and proudly displaying their Ranger insignia. For a semi-secret intelligence gathering organisation they sure aren't too concerned about being inconspicuous.

Of course Marcus also explained that they put the emphasis on the philosophical aspects of their training (and, I guess, on how to beat the shit out of other people using oversized fishing poles...).[/quote]I always laughed at this. Almost as much as when I played the game Hitman and realized that Asian characters couldn't tell that my character was a white bald man with a barcode on the back of his neck if I was wearing their clothing. :rolleyes:


[quote name='Jon AS' post='1302692' date='Apr 6 2008, 07.23']I never liked any of the "planetary CGI" shots thoughout the series, they all looked extremely fake.[/quote]Never really bothered me too much. This being a tv show on UPN with limited money, I thought that they were as good as could be expected.

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1302692' date='Apr 6 2008, 07.23']I was going to bring up this guy when you complained about Calenn earlier. I think a lot of these guest actors tried to emulate Bill Mumy's portrayal of Lennier but didn't quite pull it of (or maybe Lennier works better because as a regular we get the chance to see more sides of his character).[/quote]
Off the top of my head the list of good Minbari actors John Vickery's Neroon comes to mind in addition to Mira Furlan and Bill Mumy. He was also good in the episode where he played the rep from the Ministry of Peace. I also liked the Warrior caste leader during the Minbari civil war. Warrior caste characters generally seem to be portrayed better than Religious caste.

[mandy_k]

[quote]As someone else said, it's really a shame that the concerns other characters had with Sheridan's messianic tendencies weren't explored in greater detail so as to make Garibaldi's actions more credibl[/quote]

I wonder whether that fell victim to the cancellation threat and the acceleration of the arc.

[quote]Off the top of my head the list of good Minbari actors John Vickery's Neroon comes to mind in addition to Mira Furlan and Bill Mumy. He was also good in the episode where he played the rep from the Ministry of Peace. I also liked the Warrior caste leader during the Minbari civil war. Warrior caste characters generally seem to be portrayed better than Religious caste.[/quote]

I thought Dukhat was portrayed very well, I also liked Draal (both actors), and Turval. The problem seems to be more with the younger ones.

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='mandy_k' post='1302738' date='Apr 6 2008, 08.48']I thought Dukhat was portrayed very well, I also liked Draal (both actors), and Turval. The problem seems to be more with the younger ones.[/quote]
Completely overlooked those. However Dukhat was played in a similar manner to a cross between a Warrior and Religious caste character. If you just spent a day observing him, you couldn't be certain which caste it was from which he originated.

On another note, did it strike anyone as a hollow platitude when Delenn turned power over to the Worker caste and relinquished leadership of the Grey Council. It seems to me that she was still the dominant figure in Minbar, and there was no way that she would ever be refused entrance into the council chambers again. She was stil Entil'zha, and she single-handedly led a fleet of Minbari and other races warships in assistance of Sheridans final assault of Earth. She may not have had the title, but she maintained the reigns of power.

[Ran]

Re: CGI,

It keeps being mentioned about as if this was solely a decision JMS made out of convenience. There were some significant economic factors involved, the fact that a dedicated in-house team was going to be able to provide faster turnaround, and that "cheaper" meant "more effects shots". As far as I'm aware, neither side disagrees with the contention that Foundation wanted a certain amount for the amount of effects shots the show was expecting (and which its fans had come to expect), and JMS and co. not feeling they could afford to pay that but still wanting that many effects shots.

If Foundation were to stay on, who's to say there would have been any notable Mars CG scenes to begin with?

I can totally buy Foundation wanting to be paid what they're worth. I can totally buy that a swiftly put together in-house solution was going to miss some things, and that Ron Thornton in particular was rather irreplaceable. But the idea that they were wrong to need quicker turnaround + a large number of effects shots within their budget, I'm not sure.

Also, as noted, planetary effects shots were never particularly good anyways, whether we're talking Foundation or not.

Where S4 and S5 lost out wasn't even really the technical quality of the CGI. It was, basically, Ron Thornton and the greater sense of choreographing and thinking out fights with realistic physics. This was not necessarily forseeable, since they might have thought some of NDI people could do the same thing.

If anything, the constant push of new technology probably meant that on a purely technical leve, B5 in S5 was better than B5 in S3. Artistically, fine, it was a mistake. But the show clearly seems to have people who wanted lots of effects shots -- it was, if anything, a selling point -- and the only way to do that reliably in the scope they wanted was to go with NDI.

I know, I know, Mojo probably says different. Nuts to him.

[Shryke]

I don't get the complaints. CGI only improved over the course of the show. And not just "technically" either. Fights in S4 and S5 are WAY better choreographed then in S1-S3.

One thing I really noticed on rewatching this recently was that none of the battles in the early seasons give you any good sense of WTF is actually going on. Shadow Dancing and Severed Dreams were both REALLY bad for this. It was just "here's a ship shooting, here's another one shooting, here's one getting hit, etc.". It was more a random collection of battle scenes then anything. It gave no sense of what was going on.

BTW, the Norsarai are just ONE of many people being harassed by the Drahk. The ship we see getting attacked at the start is a Drazi ship.

[Ran]

Well, I always thought [i]Severed Dreams[/i] was the best battle sequence the show did, and remains the best I've seen on any SF TV show. I will say that the battle in [i]Lines of Communication[/i] was rather poor -- too much tight formation flying, too little sense of the 3D plane of combat -- but for the most part I do recall thinking S4 held up pretty well in the effects and choreography area. The war with Earth had some good sequences, such the attempt to break the blockade on Proxima 3 which really did have a sense of someone thinking carefully about where the various combatants were.

S5 I recall seeming like they were getting a bit ragged, but I'm not sure. BEen awhile.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ran' post='1303148' date='Apr 6 2008, 17.02']Well, I always thought [i]Severed Dreams[/i] was the best battle sequence the show did, and remains the best I've seen on any SF TV show. I will say that the battle in [i]Lines of Communication[/i] was rather poor -- too much tight formation flying, too little sense of the 3D plane of combat -- but for the most part I do recall thinking S4 held up pretty well in the effects and choreography area. The war with Earth had some good sequences, such the attempt to break the blockade on Proxima 3 which really did have a sense of someone thinking carefully about where the various combatants were.

S5 I recall seeming like they were getting a bit ragged, but I'm not sure. BEen awhile.[/quote]


Severed Dreams is only good because of the background context. Just showing it to someone who's never watched the show, they really won't think it's all that special.

There's never any "establishing shots". We never get a sense of the spacial relationship between any of the ships, or where they are or what their doing. All the shots are of the ships on their own, devoid of their position in the larger battle. It makes the whole thing feel very disconnected from itself. It's more like a collection of random CGI shots then a cohesive battle.

Look at something like the 2-3 minute battle at the start of the 5th episode of S4. It's a bunch of White Stars vs a Vorlon listening post. The stakes may be lower, but visually the battle makes alot more sense. We've got a much better feel for what's going on.

[Werthead]

[quote]It keeps being mentioned about as if this was solely a decision JMS made out of convenience. There were some significant economic factors involved, the fact that a dedicated in-house team was going to be able to provide faster turnaround, and that "cheaper" meant "more effects shots". As far as I'm aware, neither side disagrees with the contention that Foundation wanted a certain amount for the amount of effects shots the show was expecting (and which its fans had come to expect), and JMS and co. not feeling they could afford to pay that but still wanting that many effects shots.[/quote]

That wasn't the issue. Foundation Imaging and Babylonian Productions signed a contract that meant that FI would handle the CGI for all five seasons plus any spin-off series. The contract wasn't great business as it didn't specify the number of shots involved, so as a result FI were being paid the same in Season 3 as they were in Season 1, although they were delivering double the effects shots (this sort of thing is standard today in the industry, btw, and seems to be why the [b]BSG[/b] team dropped Zoic and then Atmosphere to go totally in-house for Season 4). The in-house option came up and Babylonian went for it, although it meant breaking their contact with FI, who sued their asses off and were given a generous out-of-court settlement; it'd be interesting to know how much for as that could have offset the savings they made by switching to ND.

[quote]I can totally buy Foundation wanting to be paid what they're worth. I can totally buy that a swiftly put together in-house solution was going to miss some things, and that Ron Thornton in particular was rather irreplaceable. But the idea that they were wrong to need quicker turnaround + a large number of effects shots within their budget, I'm not sure.[/quote]

The other thing to note was that FI expanded massively between doing the pilot (which was handled by Ron and about three other guys sitting in an office somewhere before FI even formally existed) and the end of Season 3. They were doing [i]Hypernauts[/i] and work on other shows (albeit kids' ones, IIRC), for example, and had far more people and far more powerful computers, and that would have continued through Seasons 4-5 (especially if FI started doing their [b]Star Trek[/b] work at the same time, although that is debatable as they only went after [b]Trek[/b] work after they were dropped from [b]B5[/b]). They would have been able to handle the expanded effects work with no problem whatsoever. It simply comes down to cost. Babylonian wanted to spend less money on the CGI and to do that they broke their contract with FI and went with the in-house team.

[quote]If anything, the constant push of new technology probably meant that on a purely technical leve, B5 in S5 was better than B5 in S3. Artistically, fine, it was a mistake. But the show clearly seems to have people who wanted lots of effects shots -- it was, if anything, a selling point -- and the only way to do that reliably in the scope they wanted was to go with NDI.[/quote]

But this doesn't really account for the fact that the increase in effects shots in the series between S1 and S3 was as high, if not higher, than from the start of S4 to the end of S5. FI handled the first transition easily enough and there's no reason to think that they wouldn't have handled the rest. It's not like prices were rising, either. Babylonian were still paying FI exactly the same amount of money that they were two years earlier. FI didn't like it and realised they'd signed a shitty deal, but they acknowledged that as their fault and pressed on.

What is interesting is JMS' claim that part of the problem was that FI told him that they were assigning their less-experienced artists to work on [b]B5[/b] so the more trained ones could go work on other shows, since as far as I can tell that's total BS. FI didn't start work on [b]Trek[/b] until odd months after they lost the [b]B5[/b] contract and the only other shows they were working on at the time were kids' ones.

[quote]I know, I know, Mojo probably says different. Nuts to him.[/quote]

Because if JMS says something about [b]B5[/b]'s behind the scenes problems it's automatically assumed to be the truth and if anyone else says something different it's not? I don't get that and never have. Maybe it's because JMS spent every other night going online and putting forward his view about these things and the other people involved perhaps only had one or two interviews here or there to put their sides of the story across?

[Ran]

I daresay the same could be said about just about any decent CGI battle sequence which depends heavily on background context, as most dramatic shows tend to do. It's a meaningless critique.

Wert,

[quote]Babylonian wanted to spend less money on the CGI...[/quote]

Is this not exactly what I said?

What your saying is Foundation and Babylonian had financial issues at stake that could not be fixed by just keeping on Foundation. Which, I think, is exactly what I said.

[quote]Because if JMS says something about B5's behind the scenes problems it's automatically assumed to be the truth...[/quote]

No. But it's also not automatically a lie, is it?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ran' post='1303169' date='Apr 6 2008, 17.22']I daresay the same could be said about just about any decent CGI battle sequence which depends heavily on background context, as most dramatic shows tend to do. It's a meaningless critique.[/quote]

I edited my post to add in more info.

The point is, the battle is visually fairly unimpressive. Without the context to back it up, no one would be thinking it was a great at all. It's fairly mediocre, and that's regardless of the technical prowess of the CGI. It's badly directed.

[Ran]

Shryke,

Well, I don't agree. I'll try to look at the battle some time and try and keep your critiques in mind.

Wert,

Let me add a couple of things:

1) I can't find a reference anywhere to Netter Digital settling a lawsuit with Foundation Imaging. I would have thought it'd have been all over the news groups back in the day, but I simply can't find anything. Any pointers to material that I can look at?

2) Regardless of whether there was a settlement or not, or regardless of the claim I've heard that Netter owned a stake of Foundation, attempted a takeover bid to make it a real in-house arm of Babylonian, and so on and so forth, I don't think anyone disputes that the number of FX shots B5 wanted would cost more with Foundation than with NDI. Foundation acknowledged this.

3) I'm not sure JMS claimed the junior animators were going to work on the show because the senior guys would be working on other shows. What I do know is that, if a situation came up where Babylonian offered only so much money for so much work, I could see Foundation saying, "Well, maybe, but we'll have to do things like have junior animators on it, and no redone shots.' And a message from JMS in 2000 basically laid it out that way, and I'm pretty sure I saw Mojo wave this away by saying he and Ron would still have overseen the production so quality wouldn't have slipped -- which basically means, yes, junior animators would have to do more of the work, because it made economic sense for Foundation.

[Werthead]

[quote]1) I can't find a reference anywhere to Netter Digital settling a lawsuit with Foundation Imaging. I would have thought it'd have been all over the news groups back in the day, but I simply can't find anything. Any pointers to material that I can look at?[/quote]

In cyberspace? Not sure. The first clue is in [i]The Babylon File[/i], where the writer (Andy Lane) reports trying to find out from both JMS and Thornton about what happened, but being told by both parties that legal proceedings prevent them from discussing it (indicating that there was litigation involved). A couple of years later Ron Thornton was interviewed by [i]SFX Magazine[/i], [i]TV Zone[/i] and a couple of other SF mags about FI's work on [b]Voyager[/b] and [b]Deep Space Nine[/b] and them taking over the [b]Dan Dare[/b] series (ironically, from Netter Digital who had just gone bust whilst working on it) and this came out of those discussions. Once I have access to my [i]SFX[/i] collection (which is in a box in a shed half a mile up the road at the moment) I'll see if I can find the specific reference.

From memory, the quote was along the lines of the interviewer asking what was the real story with regards to the split and Thornton explaining the terms and conditions of the five-year contract, then Netter setting up this other CGI house which FI were a bit puzzled about and then Babylonian breaking their contract to go with Netter and FI having to sue. Whilst they got a settlement, that would only keep FI afloat for a few months. That's when Thornton rang Dan Curry over at the [b]Star Trek[/b] production office and asked for help, which fortunately he was able to do by providing the work on [b]Voyager [/b]Season 3 and [b]DS9[/b] Season 6.

One thing that sticks in the memory from the interview was Thornton blowing his stack because he saw the Netter Digital promotional video they were using to get other work, and about half the shots on it were actually FI shots from Seasons 1-3 of [b]B5[/b]. Apparently ND justified this because they'd bought the shots and CG models from FI, but Thornton though it was dishonest.

[quote]2) Regardless of whether there was a settlement or not, or regardless of the claim I've heard that Netter owned a stake of Foundation, attempted a takeover bid to make it a real in-house arm of Babylonian, and so on and so forth, I don't think anyone disputes that the number of FX shots B5 wanted would cost more with Foundation than with NDI. Foundation acknowledged this.[/quote]

This may be correct but it's a strange way of looking at it. Babylonian knew what they were paying FI year by year in advance, because of the contract they had with them. Suddenly turning around and saying, "Hey we can spend less money on the CGI by going with Netter," seems odd because there was no notable benefit of it, certainly not on screen. There weren't really any more sets being used or more actors or anything like that. What happened to the savings is unclear. It certainly wasn't the CGI, since the increase in shots being used in Season 4 over Season 3 doesn't seem more than the improvement between Seasons 2 and 3.

[quote]3) I'm not sure JMS claimed the junior animators were going to work on the show because the senior guys would be working on other shows. What I do know is that, if a situation came up where Babylonian offered only so much money for so much work, I could see Foundation saying, "Well, maybe, but we'll have to do things like have junior animators on it, and no redone shots.' And a message from JMS in 2000 basically laid it out that way, and I'm pretty sure I saw Mojo wave this away by saying he and Ron would still have overseen the production so quality wouldn't have slipped -- which basically means, yes, junior animators would have to do more of the work, because it made economic sense for Foundation.[/quote]

Except that Babylonian couldn't suddenly ask FI to work for less money because the contract prevented them from doing so. If the [b]Star Trek[/b] gig had come up (and Curry and Thornton were friends, so it was possible that Curry may have gone to Thornton and asked for help when the two [b]Trek [/b]series went nuts with CGI rather than vice versa) it's possible that FI would have moved their A-team over to [b]Trek[/b] and put their less experienced guys on [b]B5[/b] (because the money was a hell of a lot better on [b]Trek[/b]), but the FI/Babylonian split happened some time before that. In fact, we had this discussion before and worked out the dates on it. FI didn't have many other projects going on at the time to move their best animators on to.

[Ran]

Wert,

[quote]From memory, the quote was along the lines of the interviewer asking what was the real story with regards to the split and Thornton explaining the terms and conditions of the five-year contract,...[/quote]

I can't help but note that you're taking Ron Thornton's word as a sole authority here. Who's to say his view isn't a bit colored or exaggerated?

[quote]... seems odd because there was no notable benefit of it, certainly not on screen.[/quote]

It was cheaper and, apparently, a team just doing B5 graphics in-house was faster than Foundation. This is something else I haven't found Mojo in his posts objecting to when it was remarked upon, so I'm guessing it's true. It may not have had on-screen benefit, but it probably had production benefits, and we know JMS always put a high importance on production efficiency.

[quote]It certainly wasn't the CGI, since the increase in shots being used in Season 4 over Season 3 doesn't seem more than the improvement between Seasons 2 and 3.[/quote]

Except that increase may simply not have been doable with Foundation at the price Babylonian Productions was able to pay. That's the whole issue, in the end: money.

[quote]Except that Babylonian couldn't suddenly ask FI to work for less money because the contract prevented them from doing so.[/quote]

Well, yes they could. They did. [i]If[/i] the contract was broken in a way that required a settlement, Babylonian may have done so because it was still more cost-effective for them to go that route.

[mandy_k]

Did I understand this correctly: Foundation were given a five year contract from the start, with a guaranteed fixed payment per season and no exit clause for a show that wasn't certain to even last more than one season, and before there was any evidence that the effects would work out? If that's true, that was a daring move on the part of the EPs. I'm aware that making a TV show means taking risks, but that sounds positively financially suicidal to me.

[Werthead]

The contract was drawn up between the pilot and Season 1, since FI didn't exist when they started work on the pilot. It was founded specifically to do the CGI for [b]B5[/b] (which is why JMS and it seems some others had stakes in the business). The contract was for the lifetime of the show which, as JMS said repeatedly during production, was going to be five years.

[mandy_k]

[quote name='Blanc de Wert '79' post='1304767' date='Apr 7 2008, 22.52']The contract was drawn up between the pilot and Season 1, since FI didn't exist when they started work on the pilot. It was founded specifically to do the CGI for [b]B5[/b] (which is why JMS and it seems some others had stakes in the business). The contract was for the lifetime of the show which, as JMS said repeatedly during production, was going to be five years.[/quote]

OK, I suppose that means if the show had been cancelled, the contract would have been terminated likewise. That sounds a little bit more reasonable. Still, if it was stipulated like that, it's an awfully risky decision - I mean, there was no guarantuee that CGI would have worked out and be up to standards. No exit clause means, they're stuck with them no matter what happens. Amazing deal. I wouldn't have thought he was quite that insane.

[Shryke]

[quote name='mandy_k' post='1304808' date='Apr 7 2008, 16.08']OK, I suppose that means if the show had been cancelled, the contract would have been terminated likewise. That sounds a little bit more reasonable. Still, if it was stipulated like that, it's an awfully risky decision - I mean, there was no guarantuee that CGI would have worked out and be up to standards. No exit clause means, they're stuck with them no matter what happens. Amazing deal. I wouldn't have thought he was quite that insane.[/quote]
[quote][b]It was founded specifically to do the CGI for B5[/b][/quote]