Babylon 5 Rewatch Pt. 2

[Werthead]

[quote name='Derfel Cadarn' post='1310796' date='Apr 11 2008, 22.25']Ahh, 'Allo, 'Allo. It's been years but I still chuckle at the scene where Herr Flick answers the phone. (On answering the telephone) "Flick, the Gestapo... No, I said [b]FLICK[/b], the Gestapo."

Couldn't find the clip on youtube but here's another Herr Flick classic.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6zn2JBayg&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6zn2JBayg...feature=related[/url][/quote]

They were repeating [b]'Allo 'Allo[/b] on Sundays on BBC-1 last year. Whilst you could see the punchlines coming from miles off, it was quite surprisingly how convoluted the plotlines were. The entire Second World War played as a bedroom farce. Very interesting watching it with an adult viewpoint (I was still a kid when it went off the air). Although I have to draw the line and say I [i]won't[/i] ever be doing a rewatch thread of that!

[b]Blake's 7[/b] is definitely a tempting one to do, if only because it is much shorter than these other shows I've done (only 52 eps) and was a major influence on [b]B5[/b] (among others), particularly the story-arc, the precedent of a show losing its main character and carrying on and so forth.

[Ratty]

Allo Allo is still being repeated on Sundays and I still love it. It so very much more watchable than dross like my Family.

[beniowa]

I don't doubt that humans followed a similar evolutionary path and it's a given that that transition wasn't always a smooth one. Perhaps, the humans did inherit the Vorlon mantle, but that doesn't mean they made the same mistakes. Granted, I haven't seen the episode in a long time but what I remember is that the whole thing was about them fighting hard to maintain the ideals. Even a million years in the future they were looking back at their example. To me that indicates a more positive outcome rather than a negative one.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I find it quite possible that Humans and Minbari were a rather improved version of the First Ones like the Vorlons and the Shadows. Remember that the original first ones apparently did not evolve into First One status (so far as I gather) but were born with all the inherent abilities and as such never had to learn through evolutionary trial and error.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Horus-CK1']I find it quite possible that Humans and Minbari were a rather improved version of the First Ones like the Vorlons and the Shadows. Remember that the original first ones apparently did not evolve into First One status (so far as I gather) but were born with all the inherent abilities and as such never had to learn through evolutionary trial and error.[/quote]

I don't think it's ever said that the races referred to as First Ones were born that way. Only Lorien's people are explicitly stated to have been born "naturally immortal".

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1310157' date='Apr 11 2008, 02.47']Next time, Sheridan gets very mildly tortured. For hours. Fun stuff![/quote]

You deeply understate the horror that is a corned beef sandwich with the wrong kind of mustard.

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1311204' date='Apr 11 2008, 23.39']I don't think it's ever said that the races referred to as First Ones were born that way. Only Lorien's people are explicitly stated to have been born "naturally immortal".[/quote]
You're probably right. Then perhaps in another billion years of First one status, the Humans and Minbari will begin to have the same arrogance and make the same mistakes as the Vorlons and Shadows.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Horus-CK1']You're probably right. Then perhaps in another billion years of First one status, the Humans and Minbari will begin to have the same arrogance and make the same mistakes as the Vorlons and Shadows.[/quote]

As Ran said earlier, one of the points of [i]Deconstruction[/i] [i]of fallen Stars[/i] appears to be that even a million years in the future, people are still heeding the lessons of the Shadow War.

[Werthead]

[b]4.18: [i]Intersections in Real Time[/i][/b]
I've seen people who love this episode as a wonderful [b]Prisoner[/b]-esque psychological game of cat and mouse (also shades of [b]Blake's 7[/b]'s 'psychological mindgames' episodes) and others who savage it for belittling real-life torture. The 'heroism' of Sheridan standing up to torture in this episode is undermined by the mildness of that torture: as one critic said at the time, where were the electrodes to the testicles, the savage group beatings and gang-rapes, the utter humiliation and shattering of Sheridan's spirit?

Whilst all of that is fair comment, once you accept this is going to be a watered-down TV version of torture than it works quite well. The actor playing the interrogator is great, given he has to carry most of the episode himself, and Boxleitner gives a superb performance. The musings on resistance and strength are quite interesting as well and the sheer, "WTF?" nature of the games being played is intriguing. Solid stuff.

My pace is flagging a little, probably due to the start of Season 5, which is approaching like a particularly smelly and disgusting dog belonging to a relative you don't really want to touch but feel you have to to be polite :(

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Werthead'][b]4.18: [i]Intersections in Real Time[/i][/b][/quote]

For me it works because it is obviously just the first step in the process. In the next episode Sheridan is pretty much drugged out of his mind with fancy VR gadgets used to further distort his sense of what is real. I like to think that a lot of nasty stuff took place offscreen, though I suppose this falls in the category of "fanwank".;)

[quote name='Werthead']My pace is flagging a little, probably due to the start of Season 5, which is approaching like a particularly smelly and disgusting dog belonging to a relative you don't really want to touch but feel you have to to be polite :([/quote]

Having wrestled with that particular dog last week, I can't really offer much in terms of support. Except that at the end you'll get to watch [i]Sleeping in Light[/i], that has to motivate you a little, right?

[Lord of Oop North]

I always assumed they held back against Sheridan because of who he was.

They didn't want to simply break him with physical violence. It was integral that they break his mind, and actually turn him to their side.

[potsherds]

[quote name='Lord of the North' post='1311666' date='Apr 12 2008, 23.55']I always assumed they held back against Sheridan because of who he was.

They didn't want to simply break him with physical violence. It was integral that they break his mind, and actually turn him to their side.[/quote]
Yeah, I thought that intention came across loud and clear at various points...

I'm now behind Wert in eps again. :(

[mandy_k]

[quote]The 'heroism' of Sheridan standing up to torture in this episode is undermined by the mildness of that torture: as one critic said at the time, where were the electrodes to the testicles, the savage group beatings and gang-rapes, the utter humiliation and shattering of Sheridan's spirit?[/quote]

I wonder what that critic had to say about the torturing of Picard in "Chain of Command"?

It is a TV show, not a real-life documentary. Even in the latter, there is little chance to get a realistic portrayal of torture on screen. It would have to be rated NC17, and thus in a show designed for the general audience would never get past the executives.

[quote]Having wrestled with that particular dog last week, I can't really offer much in terms of support. Except that at the end you'll get to watch Sleeping in Light, that has to motivate you a little, right?[/quote]

You also have "The Long Night of Londo Mollari", "The Fall of Centauri Prime", "Objects in Motion" etc.

Beauty, in the dark.

[HP Loveshaft]

[quote name='mandy_k' post='1311921' date='Apr 13 2008, 00.08']I wonder what that critic had to say about the torturing of Picard in "Chain of Command"?

It is a TV show, not a real-life documentary. Even in the latter, there is little chance to get a realistic portrayal of torture on screen. It would have to be rated NC17, and thus in a show designed for the general audience would never get past the executives.[/quote]

Jack Bauer, man. All sorts of creepy torture in 24.

[mandy_k]

I haven't seen 24, but somehow I doubt they showed electrodes to the testicles and gang-rape in an afternoon- or prime time show. Somehow I also doubt that this would be appropriate in a show that's watched by kids, amongst others.

I think it just doesn't make much sense to blame whatever creator or show for not doing things that in the contemporary TV landscape simply cannot be done.

[Shryke]

[quote][b]4.18: Intersections in Real Time[/b][/quote]

One of the series best episodes. Would have made an awesome season finale.

And I don't get the "mild torture" thing. He's already been beaten, starved and drugged before the episode even starts. What we see isn't the "electrocute his nuts" torture. They Don't Want That. They want him broken. And not the kind of bringing broken you get from beating a man till he begs you to stop.

The idea is to erode him down with the sheer monotony of it. To break him by convincing him he can't win. It's repeated over and over again. It's the whole point of the episode. What's the torturer's big line?

"The preeminent truth of our time is that you cannot beat the system"

And that's what he's fighting. It's not a person. The torturer immediately distances himself from the whole thing. It's not a calling, it's not something he enjoys. It's a job. It's something he does because he has to. He doesn't care. Sheridan is simply a number. Sheridan can't fight back because they refuse to fight him, at least directly. They don't give him anyone to fight against. The torturer is simply part of the system. Another cog. And all they want is for Sheridan to realise he is to, and then be a good little cog and do what they want.

And at the end, he thinks he's figured out how to win. And then they show him that he's won nothing, and the game starts again, the exact same way as before. The idea being to beat him down again and again with the fact that he cannot win.

It's not brutal physical torture. It's mind-numbing, monotonous brutal torture. Like a longer more elaborate version of that recording they play the one time. Just the same thing, over and over till he finally submits.

[Horus Ex Machina]

This was one of my favorite episodes despite the fact that the government wasted precious time trying to break him when the Psi Corps could have easily re-programmed him. And as Bester put it, if they needed it to stand up to a scan, well then "to be admissable in court the teep performing the scan would have to be a member of Psi Corps". IE noone would have known that Sheridan was mind-wiped. I can never quite put that out of mind when I watch this episode.

That said, I always do list it as one of the three most moving episodes of the series along with [i][b]Gropos[/b][/i] and [i][b]Shattered Dreams[/b][/i]

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Horus']This was one of my favorite episodes despite the fact that the government wasted precious time trying to break him when the Psi Corps could have easily re-programmed him. And as Bester put it, if they needed it to stand up to a scan, well then "to be admissable in court the teep performing the scan would have to be a member of Psi Corps". IE noone would have known that Sheridan was mind-wiped. I can never quite put that out of mind when I watch this episode.[/quote]

But how many people outside Psi Corps actually [i]know[/i] how much they can do to mess with someone's mind? I highly doubt that information is widely circulated, and while Clark liked to think he was using the telepaths, they thought the opposite and wouldn't volunteer this info to him.

[mandy_k]

There's also the risk that some alien telepaths will somehow find out. I doubt the Rangers, or Delenn, for instance, would readily accept Sheridan's testimony as genuine, and I imagine they would try to find out what happened using Minbari telepaths. It would be just a matter of how to get to him.

[Shryke]

The whole point is to leave no doubt in the minds of anyone. What they really don't want is a martyr. Of any sort. Which means they don't want a big conspiracy theory cropping up about this whole thing. (Which would happen if some alien/rogue telepath scanned him, and then Delenn and her allies started spreading stories about his mind being fucked with by the Psi-Corps) They want him broken for real so there's no way for doubt to start growing in peoples minds.