Dune: The Original Novel

[C.T. Phipps]

I guess I just don't think the Machine vs. Man thing has much of a place except as a reason to explain why genetics and stuff like Mentats/Spice has replaced computers.

[Larry.]

I think the Golden Path is one of the signs that the human/machine issue is more than just a single odd quirk to explain why there aren't advanced computers in Herbert's world.

[Gerold Hightower]

Evolution and the lack thereof in the Corrino empire is one of the major themes of the series. Mankind's greatest danger was stagnation. Not quite sure why that should lead to extinction but it is stated that the universe is infinite so mankind must keep expanding rather than be confined to a finite part of it. Not the slightest hint that thinking machines might play a part.

As for the gholas, the Tleilax do find a way to make humans immortal. First they just bring back the flesh, then the memories of the original human, and finally even that of the previous ghola incarnations.

I like the way they depict space travel in the Dune miniseries. Certainly better than those spaceships with roaring engines we usually get from Hollywood.

[alguien]

[quote name='Gerold Hightower' post='1323676' date='Apr 21 2008, 21.26']As for the gholas, the Tleilax do find a way to make humans immortal. First they just bring back the flesh, then the memories of the original human, and finally even that of the previous ghola incarnations.[/quote]

It was an interesting theory, that a clone made from cells of a previous body somehow retains memory on a cellular level. I'm pretty certain that's not true, but interesting and original nonetheless.

[Shryke]

It's not like Genetic memory wasn't all over the place in Dune before that or something.

[alguien]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1323689' date='Apr 21 2008, 21.33']It's not like Genetic memory wasn't all over the place in Dune before that or something.[/quote]

Do you mean the voices of ancestors Sisters can hear after taking Spice?

I guess they're the same thing. That always seemed more mystical to me, more of a clairvoyent psychic ability, while resurrection was purely biological, not involving spice but involving a triggering catalyst to bring about the cell's original memories.

The reason I disagree with it, is that it seems to imply that personality is entirely based on genetics.

[C.T. Phipps]

Yes, not only do you maintain YOUR memories in your cells...

ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS have their memories in your cells too.

[alguien]

[quote name='Charles Phipps' post='1323730' date='Apr 21 2008, 20.54']Yes, not only do you maintain YOUR memories in your cells...

ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS have their memories in your cells too.[/quote]

Yah, I really felt Frank was reaching a bit on that one. :smoking:

[Arthmail]

Firstly, i have to say that Dune is one of my favorite books, certainly the best in its genre. I have read Asimov, and honestly, he sucks compared to FH. Characterization, story, everything that Herbert tried to do worked on a number of different levels.

Second, KJA and Herberts son's books are ghastly. In and of themselves they are fine. If there were no Dune universe they would be OK, but as it stands, both men stood over Herberts open grave and took a big shit.

What is missing is what made the original Dune so good. Themes. Ecology, religion, heroism. Herbert took all of them and wrapped them together in myth. And i certainly don't think that the ban on thinking machines, and the Mentats, are somehow just background noise for the current struggle. It all ties together under a broader idea. That humans can push themselves, that we don't need machines to exceed human intelligence. But that at the same time the failings of human nature are still going to play an integral part in what happens. Religion, the dogma that surrounds it, and the consequences of such things are important to the story, tying in, as i said, directly with the lack of higher technology common in much of science fiction. No plasma rifles or cortical stacks here.

I find that what i took most out of the first book was that idea of the power of mythology. The Bene Gesserit tried the manipulation of religious themes to their own end, and in some ways they succeeded with their selective breeding program. In many ways they failed. Human nature - Jessica's love for Leto and his desire to have a son - superseded their plans. This created an abberition in the plan, Paul. Everything that they had set up he threatened, taking their manipulations and letting them run wild under the fires of religious zeolotry. He was the fire, the voice of unreason that spread what was, in essence, a crusade across the universe. The idea that despite evolving beyond the need for technology, that we still might fail not because of technology but because of human nature, was a powerful one to me.

As for Paul, i always liked him as a character, perhaps because he was different. Raised by a mother skilled in talents beyond the norm, son of a Duke of charisma, skill, and power. Trained by some of the greatest men of the generation before him. Thufir Hawat - considered the most dangerous Mentat in the Empire, even if he was aging a little. Duncan Idaho (who i always liked because of the mysterious posibility of what he could have become to the story), and Gurney Halleck, one of my all time favorite characters. Throw in the fact that he is, for all intents and purpose, the result of some thousand years of genetic engineering, and you have a boy that is not a boy. My ex-girlfriends younger brother was genius level intelligent, reading law statutes at age 13...he had some of the same qualities as Paul. Too old for his age, too knowing that it was a little unseemly sometimes. I think Paul was a result of all of the circumstances leading to his birth and growth, and i thought he worked really well.

And i didn't even really mention the idea of presience, and what the possibility of knowing possibilities could bring in such a situation. Perhaps in another post.

[Arthmail]

Upon further consideration, perhaps the strongest theme of the book is power. Power over whatever humans touch. People like the Fremen, and Liet Kynes, sought power of the planet Arrakis. They wanted to change the sands into lands of water - a paradise. The Emperor struggled to keep power over his empire. The Bene Gesserit sought power through selective breeding. Leto sought it through his training programs, through his continued assension in the Laandstraad (sp). Jessica sought it over the Fremen, in her way, so that she could protect her son. Paul, ultimately, sought it over everything - including the future in his attempts to break the viel and see into the future.

Simply put, power and control forced resolutions at every turn. From the religion of the Fremen and the fires of their crusade to the betrayal of Leto. Even Dr. Yeuh struggled for power, if only in trying to find some over Leto to try and see if his wife still lived.

As one can tell, i like the book. I have a tattered copy from the time that the movie came out - (with pictures of Sting in it...haha), which i have leant to everyone travelling to some place foreign...and which i have taken myself. So far, it has been to: Czech Republic, Slovakia, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Poland, England, Iceland, Scotland, Jamaica, Dominican Repuglic, United States, Mexico. It missed out on a trip to Japan by about an hour. I had it with me when i went to the first five countries, the rest have been with friends.

So, uhm...if anyone buys a Virgin flight into space, please contact me. Thanks.

[C.T. Phipps]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1323744' date='Apr 21 2008, 20.58']Yah, I really felt Frank was reaching a bit on that one. :smoking:[/quote]

Meh, the Spice taps into the Force.

[Exa Inova]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1323788' date='Apr 22 2008, 04.13'][i]<yadayadayada>[/i]
As for Paul, i always liked him as a character, perhaps because he was different. Raised by a mother skilled in talents beyond the norm, son of a Duke of charisma, skill, and power. Trained by some of the greatest men of the generation before him. Thufir Hawat - considered the most dangerous Mentat in the Empire, even if he was aging a little. Duncan Idaho (who i always liked because of the mysterious posibility of what he could have become to the story), and Gurney Halleck, one of my all time favorite characters. Throw in the fact that he is, for all intents and purpose, the result of some thousand years of genetic engineering, and [b]you have a boy that is not a boy[/b]. My ex-girlfriends younger brother was genius level intelligent, reading law statutes at age 13...he had some of the same qualities as Paul. Too old for his age, too knowing that it was a little unseemly sometimes. I think Paul was a result of all of the circumstances leading to his birth and growth, and i thought he worked really well.[/quote]

Its spreading............the horror, the HORROR

[Serious Callers Only]

The best part of Dune is the ecologist, Liet and his mini-plot. And ofcourse, the Bene gesserit and their sense of history and entitlement. You can notice when the series starts to be [s]good[/s]better again - its when the Bene gesserit return to the center of events - when that lady visited the God Emperor, or when they got control of the inner planets again. Some of the latter plot elements were rubbish though, but it was all handled quite well, on consideration.

I like the paranoid interior monologues. Its not paranoia, if they are really out to get you right?
As a narrative move, this kind of internal dialogue is mostly fallen by the wayside now. Shades of "show, don't tell", and quite frankly then i enjoyed it a lot, because, even it it was "telling" there was plently of things to infer (there were even some unreliable monologists if i remember correctly).

The only other author that i know that does this is C. J. Cherryh, and she also has an unusual, different writing style. In retrospect, much of the admiration i feel for Cyteen is of the same source that that of Dune, they tried to write different.

The musings of Leto were also interesting, for a young boy - i'm not sure how i would react now.

[snake]

I've only read Dune about a year ago and was disappointed by it. I heard such good things about the novel and it was disappointing to find out that it wasn't that great.

FH had some cool and interesting ideas but(from reading Dune) i found that the man is not a very good writer and IMO if you cannot write that well then all the good ideas in the world are not gonna make the book terrific. It was decent but I wouldn't say it's a great novel or anything like that.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1323744' date='Apr 22 2008, 02.58']Yah, I really felt Frank was reaching a bit on that one. :smoking:[/quote]
That's why it's called science-[b]fiction[/b] :P .

[Arthmail]

[quote name='Exa Inova' post='1324145' date='Apr 22 2008, 03.44']Its spreading............the horror, the HORROR[/quote]


I notice that you are quick to judge the work, but until you actually respond to my comments, keep your horror to yourself. I never felt that there was anything wrong with Paul, namely because i have met someone who is like him - if only in the sense that he seemed far too old to be so young.

Its actually amusing to see people try and write off Paul. I mean, is he my favorite character in the books? No. Stilgar, Liet, Gurney Halleck, Leto (Pauls dad) - i liked their characters more. But he is not without possibility, given his birth (Bene Gesserit breeding program), his birth right (son of the duke), and his training (from his mentors - Gurney, Duncan, Thufir and even Yueh to some extent, as well as his mother). It could actually almost tie in with the Richard Morgan threads, where people will argue to the end of time about how Morgans characters (at least Kovacs and Marsaillis), are justified in their actions because of who they are, but somehow Paul is not. From what i read in the books, it didn't look like Castle Atriedes was much of a place for a kid to be a kid (another factor similar to the boy i knew...he's older now of course). Trained by swordsman, assassins, warriors, dukes, and witches...i'm actually sort of surprised that Paul didn't grow up a complete psychotic. Throw in the ability to see the future, a dead father and usurped dukedom, and a couple of hundred thousand uber sand warrriors that view you as the next coming, and its easy to see why Paul became what he did.

[alguien]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1324642' date='Apr 22 2008, 11.10']I notice that you are quick to judge the work, but until you actually respond to my comments, keep your horror to yourself. I never felt that there was anything wrong with Paul, namely because i have met someone who is like him - if only in the sense that he seemed far too old to be so young.

Its actually amusing to see people try and write off Paul. I mean, is he my favorite character in the books? No. Stilgar, Liet, Gurney Halleck, Leto (Pauls dad) - i liked their characters more. But he is not without possibility, given his birth (Bene Gesserit breeding program), his birth right (son of the duke), and his training (from his mentors - Gurney, Duncan, Thufir and even Yueh to some extent, as well as his mother). It could actually almost tie in with the Richard Morgan threads, where people will argue to the end of time about how Morgans characters (at least Kovacs and Marsaillis), are justified in their actions because of who they are, but somehow Paul is not. From what i read in the books, it didn't look like Castle Atriedes was much of a place for a kid to be a kid (another factor similar to the boy i knew...he's older now of course). Trained by swordsman, assassins, warriors, dukes, and witches...i'm actually sort of surprised that Paul didn't grow up a complete psychotic. Throw in the ability to see the future, a dead father and usurped dukedom, and a couple of hundred thousand uber sand warrriors that view you as the next coming, and its easy to see why Paul became what he did.[/quote]

I think Exa was jokingly noting the similarity between the phrase "boy who is not a boy" you wrote in your previous post and "chicken that was not a chicken", which is a long-running joke in the Anti-Goodkind threads (with good reason--the passage is friggin' hilarious), and not making any judgement on the Dune series itself.

[Guy Kilmore]

I always thought Herbert was a little prophetic with Paul in of itself. That as society becomes more advanced and modern, people are either forced to spend more of their life in technical training or to do this training earlier. If this training comes earlier it can lead to faster maturing. We can see that in young people today, a certain youthful cyncism that is unique to the generations that have been exposed to more advanced forms of media. A rational arguement can be made to see if Paul was able to "handle" this or not.

[C.T. Phipps]

Any book that has psychic powers is Science Fiction-Fantasy in my view.

[Gerold Hightower]

[quote]That's why it's called science-fiction.[/quote]
Well, there's also the science part. Or should be.

I don't think the memories are supposed to be in stored the cells. It can't be any type of physical storage or the Tleilaxu couldn't have the memories of their previous (ghola) incarnations. Just as prescience isn't physical imaging. Something along the lines of triumph of the human mind over mere matter.
.