Dune: The Original Novel

[Serious Callers Only]

Its implied later on that its only one of the effects of some natural phenomenon combined with certain disciplines - like the mentat trance, the others being prescience and guild navigation (a limited form of prescience).

In fact will someone check if Siona or the other one whatishername on Chapterhouse dune could access prescience?

[C.T. Phipps]

Like I said, "genetic memory" is tied to the Spice and basically just amounts to "magic."

[L'Sana]

May I just say how much I'm enjoying reading all those who didn't think Duncan Idaho was the most awesome character in the history of literature? I thought I was the only one who thought bringing him back from the dead a bazillion times was lame. I never dreamed I would find so many soulmates.

I was one of those who loved the first Dune book but thought the rest were mediocre to bad. In answer to the question that Dylanfanatic posed back on the first page of the thread, let me do my best to tell you why:

Conflict. The first book was full of conflict. Atredies vs. Harkonnen. Emperor vs. the nobility. Yueh vs. other Atredies retainers. Leto vs. the local staff. After the fall of the Atredies, loyalty vs. survival in the surviving retainers. Paul vs. Jessica in matters of their survival. Paul vs. his former self as his ethics become more compromised. And of course, the desert vs. everybody.

That conflict almost entirely disappeared in the later books. Paul and Leto are gods. Any conflict will be resolved the way they want it to be. A plot against them can succeed only if they wish it to succeed. Therefore, the only meaningful conflict can be internal to them, and neither one struck me as particularly conflicted. Paul was guilty sometimes, but he didn't seem to have many doubts. Leto saw his golden path and stuck to it. Therefore, I saw no reason to be interested in what happend.

[williamjm]

Like a few other people in the thread, I did really like the first book but wasn't so keen on the sequels, which did have some interesting ideas but often were not as well written as the first book.

[quote name='L'Sana' post='1325453' date='Apr 22 2008, 23.48']That conflict almost entirely disappeared in the later books. Paul and Leto are gods. Any conflict will be resolved the way they want it to be. A plot against them can succeed only if they wish it to succeed.[/quote]

That was something that annoyed me a bit in the second and third books, that many of the plots by the various conspirators were really quite stupid and only almost-worked because the Atreides saw what was going to happen in advance and partially went along with the plot for their own purposes. For example, the plot in [i]Children of Dune[/i] where IIRC Leto and his sister are sent some clothes by their enemies when their enemies hope that they'll wear these clothes (although having the resources of dozens of planets suggest they might have their own clothing), then go walking out in the desert without guards where they can then be attacked by specially-trained tigers. I also didn't like the conversations where some of the people in the conversation seemed determined to obfuscate so much that they confused their supposed allies despite the fact that they should have spent a bit more time on coming up with a decent plan rather than trying to confuse the people they're talking to.

[Crazydog7]

I loved the first 4 Dune books but after that I lost interest.

What really put the nail in the coffin for me were the books by Kevin J. Anderson I actually liked the Butlarian Jihad books much better then House this, that and the other.

I will say that if you have never read "Of Caladan Seas" the short story you should do yourself a favor and read it.

It would be interesting to read a book by just Brian Herbert I am of the opinion that Kevin J. Anderson is a cyborg intent on leaching off the good works of others until he dies.

I mean look at the similarities between the Saga of the Seven Suns and A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I loved Dune and still love it to this day. It's the only science fiction I've ever read and enjoyed. It had great characters who suffered severe fates at the hands of their enemies. At the time I read it I never expected all the carnage that would befall House Atreides and the survivors flight into the desert. Herbert did what we all love about Martin, I think, and because of Dune and its treatment of the first Leto, I never got too attached to Ned. I never knew who might live or die next, and though it got progressively stranger as the series went on that doesn't detract from the three first books that were so fantastic.

I always liked Duncan though so his character often kept me reading. Did they bring him back again in Chapterhouse? I never finished Heretics but I was under the assumption that Duncan from God Emperor remained alive...I guess I'm wrong?

The first book is phenomenal and now I think I'm gonna go read the whole series.

[Insert Edit]

Interesting. Yeah, I can see the idea that the books become less interesting when the basic human level conflicts are decided. I see a parallel to the 'Culture' novels of Ian M. Banks. I generally love those books, but I prefer the stories that have a strong human character. I forget which novel it was, where the main characters were AI minds, and ships... cool concept, but hard to really identify with the longings and desires of a ginormous ultra-intelligent warship.

So yeah, as the series progresses, and characters start becoming gods, it becomes more difficult to get emotionally connected with them.

[matt b]

[quote name='Simon of Steele' post='1325533' date='Apr 22 2008, 19.49']I always liked Duncan though so his character often kept me reading. Did they bring him back again in Chapterhouse? I never finished Heretics but I was under the assumption that Duncan from God Emperor remained alive...I guess I'm wrong?[/quote]

as I recall, the Duncan from God Emperor did survive at the end of the novel, but then Heretics flashes forward a few thousand years and begins again with a new Duncan, who lasts throughout the rest of the series. I believe Frank evisioned there would be 2 trilogies with God Emperor in the middle as a bridge, only he passed before he could finish the second trilogy.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Serious Callers Only' post='1324843' date='Apr 22 2008, 13.46']In fact will someone check if Siona or the other one whatishername on Chapterhouse dune could access prescience?[/quote]

The whole idea was that the descendents of Duncan and Siona would be able to hide from prescience. Siona was the embodiment of the Golden Path, as no future Oracle would ever been able to completely dominate humanity as Leto did.

[Exa Inova]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1324682' date='Apr 22 2008, 18.23']I think Exa was jokingly noting the similarity between the phrase "boy who is not a boy" you wrote in your previous post and "chicken that was not a chicken", which is a long-running joke in the Anti-Goodkind threads (with good reason--the passage is friggin' hilarious), and not making any judgement on the Dune series itself.[/quote]
:thumbsup:

[Black Wizard]

Does anyone actually know what the Golden Path is? :o

[Merentha]

Leads to the Emerald City.

[Arthmail]

Ah, i had forgotten my goodkind thread lurking. I am so ashamed, sorry to get in a tither.

As for the Golden Path, i want to say that it has something to do with choosing the best variable for humanity, to prevent a second dark age of some sort where the planets are cut off from each other and mostly stagnate and die. But its been awhile.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1326506' date='Apr 23 2008, 11.06']Does anyone actually know what the Golden Path is? :o[/quote]

The Golden Path is to prevent the extinction of humanity. It requires that humanity continually spread out through the universe, by leaving the confines of the Imperium. The result of humanity staying in the known worlds was stagnation, and easy domination by a single power.

Leto II put humanity on this path by isolating the worlds from each other, which created many unique societies. He purposefully ruled with an iron fist, in order to instill a great desire for freedom in humanity. He made them hate absolute dictators by being the worst dictator imaginable. By oppressing the Bene Tleilax and the Ixians, he made them more inventive. The result was the breaking of the Guild's monopoly on Space Travel (Ixian Navigation Device), and the Spice Monopoly of Arrakis (Tleilaxu's artificial spice). He modified the sandworms so that they could adapt to conditions on other planets more easily (Chapterhouse), in order to spread the spice melange throughout the universe. He also created a breeding program, intended to breed a human who was immune to prescience (Siona). This way, the future descendents would not be able to be manipulated by an Oracle.

All of these factors: easier space travel, more abundant resources, immunity to prescience, and a desire for freedom would help humanity survive by scattering them throughout the Universe. In short, the idea was to make humanity impossible to bottle up and wipe out. That is basically what happened. After Leto II died, there were the Great Famines, and humanity spread out into the unknown universe. They colonized an area of space too vast to be controlled by a single power, and no Oracle would ever be able to find them all.

[Tears of Lys]

Great explanation of the Golden Path. :thumbsup:

I knew this all, of course. ;)

[Black Wizard]

Good explanation, but I still don't see why the Golden Path needed to include a near extinction of the human race as shown in [i]Sandworms of Dune[/i].

What are the Famine Times exactly? A shortage of spice or general food?

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1327998' date='Apr 24 2008, 10.33']Good explanation, but I still don't see why the Golden Path needed to include a near extinction of the human race as shown in [i]Sandworms of Dune[/i].

What are the Famine Times exactly? A shortage of spice or general food?[/quote]

I've never read [i]Sandworms of Dune[/i]. Only Frank Herbert's original six novels. So I'm not sure why that would be necessary, as it doesn't really fit with Leto II's ideas on the Golden Path in [i]God Emperor of Dune[/i].

I believe the Famine Times were a bit of both. After Leto II's reign ended, his empire went into chaos and famine, which caused the Scattering.

[Gerold Hightower]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1327998' date='Apr 24 2008, 16.33']Good explanation, but I still don't see why the Golden Path needed to include a near extinction of the human race as shown in [i]Sandworms of Dune[/i].

What are the Famine Times exactly? A shortage of spice or general food?[/quote]
The Golden Path was the only way to [i]avoid[/i] the extinction of mankind. I don't know what happens in [i]Sandworms of Dune,[/i] but that book wasn't written by Frank Herbert.

I don't think we know anything particular about the Famine Times but the name would suggest that there was famine in the empire. Probably one of the things that drove people into the Scattering.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Gerold Hightower' post='1328085' date='Apr 24 2008, 11.39']The Golden Path was the only way to [i]avoid[/i] the extinction of mankind. I don't know what happens in [i]Sandworms of Dune,[/i] but that book wasn't written by Frank Herbert.

I don't think we know anything particular about the Famine Times but the name would suggest that there was famine in the empire. Probably one of the things that drove people into the Scattering.[/quote]

Yeah, most likely. Like MM said, it was probaly a shortage of [i]everything[/i]. Along with civil strife, war, and chaos. All of those factors would likely influence the people to abandon their homes and head off in search of new ones. If it was only a shortage of spice, then I don't think that would be enough to drive people away. Much of this chaos can still be seen by the time of [i]Heretics of Dune[/i]. No one power holds absolute influence in the Old Imperium, and things are still quite unorganized.

--- ETA ---

One other thing I thought was interesting was Miles Teg's ability to see the No-Ships at Rakis. Was this a flaw in the Golden Path? If he was able to see them, does that mean it is possible that someone could see Siona's descendents?

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1328017' date='Apr 24 2008, 15.46']More like a shortage of everything, since the stability provided by Leto ceased to exist, and thus all the chains of resource dependence were broken, leading to widespread famine.[/quote]
I suppose you're right. Leto always made sure he had the best of everything and deprived the entire Imperium of any luxuries. There was one part in [i]God Emperor[/i] where he says that "a walking population is easier to control". I think he said that he'd taken away the luxury of motorised transport.

[quote name='Lord of Oop North' post='1328100' date='Apr 24 2008, 16.45']One other thing I thought was interesting was Miles Teg's ability to see the No-Ships at Rakis. Was this a flaw in the Golden Path? If he was able to see them, does that mean it is possible that someone could see Siona's descendents?[/quote]
Omnius was able to calculate where the no-ship [i]Ithaca[/i] was but The Oracle of Time but Duncan mk. 2 million and Miles Teg were able to save them just at the last moment several times. I don't know if it was a flaw or Leto meant for the descendants of Siona to see the no-ships. However, Leto couldn't see inside the no-room that the Ixian Ambassador was born in, so how we would be able to forsee the ability to see no-ships confuses me.