Anyone who didn't like The Dark Knight is a tool.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465200' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.06']Re: The Price Dent Paid

Except RIGHT BEFORE THAT, which I also highlighted for a reason he talks about Batman and his unwillingness to kill. Then he talks about the paradox of the whole thing being that while he couldn't kill Joker, Dent "paid the price". (ie - he died)

That's why it's a paradox. He couldn't kill the Joker even though he wanted to, but he killed Dent even though he didn't want to.[/quote]
The paradox can also refer to the concept that while Batman wants to be the one who sacrafices, others have to pay the price for his actions. Batman wanted Dent to remain stainless, to be that "white knight" while he undertook the actions that were morally ambiguous. Batman failed in that, Dent the person fell, so Batman is left protecting Dent the image.

Did Nolan flub the ending? I mean, even the producer is confused.

[Shryke]

Except that would have NOTHING to do with the rest of what he was talking about. You know, the part where he was talking about Batman's unwillingness to kill and the fact that he couldn't kill the Joker.


COULD they bring him back? Yes. In the same way they could bring back DuCard or Rachel or pretty much anyone else who's completely unambiguously lifeless corpse we didn't see.

Will they? I doubt it, unless someone else takes over. They played the Two-Face card, they played it well and the whole sacrifice and paradox at the end would be shit all over by making him not dead.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465223' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.22']Except that would have NOTHING to do with the rest of what he was talking about. You know, the part where he was talking about Batman's unwillingness to kill and the fact that he couldn't kill the Joker.[/quote]

So Batman failed and is a murderer? I didn't walk away feeling that from the movie. Nolan could have easily said Dent died in that sentence. He didn't. It is up to the reader to interpret the price that is paid. One can infer what you stated and one can reasonably infer some other price.

You are stating that it is Nolan's attempt to portray that Dent is dead, no ambiguosness. A substantial number of people have a different interpretation. Did Nolan fail, did he mess it up?

[Paddy]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465223' date='Aug 1 2008, 16.22']COULD they bring him back? Yes. In the same way they could bring back DuCard or Rachel or pretty much anyone else who's completely unambiguously lifeless corpse we didn't see.[/quote]
Which I believe is all we are trying to say. You keep on saying "He's dead. He's dead. He's dead.", but the movie isn't conclusive on that. I don't know why you are arguing against that only to come along and agree with what we are saying now.

If the movie wanted to say he was conclusively dead, a simple "He's dead" from either Batman or Gordon would have sufficed.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Paddy' post='1465242' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.33'][b]Which I believe is all we are trying to say. You keep on saying "He's dead. He's dead. He's dead.", but the movie isn't conclusive on that.[/b] I don't know why you are arguing against that only to come along and agree with what we are saying now.

If the movie wanted to say he was conclusively dead, a simple "He's dead" from either Batman or Gordon would have sufficed.[/quote]

The is DuCard alive? Is Rachel?

Honestly, the internet is the only place I've met anyone who walked away from that movie thinking he wasn't dead.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465254' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.38']The is DuCard alive? Is Rachel?

Honestly, the internet is the only place I've met anyone who walked away from that movie thinking he wasn't dead.[/quote]
The 30 people I saw it in the theater thought he was alive. My mom and sister thinks he is alive. There are interviews and what not that people are trying to pick apart the movie. Now that we established that my annecedotal knowledge counters yours, we can move on.

I can see people thinking Dent is not dead because by killing Dent the Joker won. The Joker was trying to break Batman's really only limit, to make him that creature of anarchy and chaos. If Batman loses that through an intentional action then he has played, then he simply proves the Joker's point. (The Joker wanted Batman to kill him in the willingness to prove this point.)

Batman, to perserve Dent's legacy, is forced to assume the moniker of murderer, which is something that he is not.

This is a reasonable interpretation and one that is held throughout the logical consistency and themes of the movie.

I noticed you are not answering this question. People, a substantial number, have walked away from the movie thinking that Dent lived. Where do they get this? Did Nolan mess up? Did he flub the ending?

[Paddy]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465254' date='Aug 1 2008, 16.38']The is DuCard alive? Is Rachel?[/quote]
DuCard could well be alive. This is movie physics we're talking about here.
Rachel, not so much. Unless she wasn't in that building, but we're given no reason for her not to be and every reason for her to be.
The Joker needs her to die to try out his theory that he can turn Gotham's White Knight into a bad guy.

But this beside the point. The movie does not establish that Dent is dead. In fact, it seems to me like it goes out of its way to not establish that he's dead.
This does not mean he's alive. But it also doesn't make it so that "He's dead, he's dead. How can anyone be stupid enough to think that he's not dead?" is reasonable.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465254' date='Aug 1 2008, 16.38']Honestly, the internet is the only place I've met anyone who walked away from that movie thinking he wasn't dead.[/quote]
And conversely, everyone I know that I've spoken to around here and who's seen the move thinks he's alive, and I'm not exaggerating on that anecdote.

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465254' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.38']Honestly, the internet is the only place I've met anyone who walked away from that movie thinking he wasn't dead.[/quote]
And this proves what, exactly?

[Shryke]

[quote name='DanteGabriel' post='1465265' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.46']And this proves what, exactly?[/quote]

It doesn't PROVE anything. It's a response to this:

[quote]You are stating that it is Nolan's attempt to portray that Dent is dead, no ambiguosness. A substantial number of people have a different interpretation. Did Nolan fail, did he mess it up?[/quote]

No one I know who saw this movie came away thinking he wasn't dead. Did Nolan mess up? I don't think so. I think it's fairly clear he's dead.

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465268' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.49']No one I know who saw this movie came away thinking he wasn't dead. Did Nolan mess up? I don't think so. I think it's fairly clear he's dead.[/quote]
Okay, polling the four co-workers who sit near me, "Is Harvey Dent dead?"

1: "Of course not."
2. "Yes."
3. "Yes."
4. "I can see how they left it open to bring him back."

[Shryke]

[quote]But this beside the point. The movie does not establish that Dent is dead. In fact, it seems to me like it goes out of its way to not establish that he's dead.[/quote]

Did you miss the funeral? The speech?

[quote]This does not mean he's alive. But it also doesn't make it so that "He's dead, he's dead. How can anyone be stupid enough to think that he's not dead?" is reasonable.[/quote]

The evidence for him not being dead is circumstantial at best.

[Shryke]

[quote name='DanteGabriel' post='1465271' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.51']Okay, polling the four co-workers who sit near me, "Is Harvey Dent dead?"

1: "Of course not."
2. "Yes."
3. "Yes."
4. "I can see how they left it open to bring him back."[/quote]

3/4 for me. It's still pretty pointless.

Has a writer "Screwed up" if less then 100% of the audience doesn't get every plot point? I certainly don't think so.

[Jerol]

I can't believe I am wading into this but even if the initial script says he's dead, the fact that they have signed Eckhart for the next movie shows that in Nolan's mind he's alive and he'll be back for the next film.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Dagger' post='1465276' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.53']I can't believe I am wading into this but even if the initial script says he's dead, the fact that they have signed Eckhart for the next movie shows that in Nolan's mind he's alive and he'll be back for the next film.[/quote]

Or, you know, he could appear in flash-backs.

Or the fact that originally they intended for the whole Two-Face thing to happen in the next movie, while the Joker was on trial.

[DanteGabriel]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465273' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.52']3/4 for me.[/quote]
Really? Counting me, that's two definite yeses, two definite nos, and one open to possibility.

The funeral and the speech are supposed to be evidence that he's dead? Yeah, just like Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader killed his father was evidence that Anakin Skywalker was dead. If we are right, the funeral was for PR purposes to protect Harvey Dent's reputation and conceal the fact that Two-Face was alive and recovering in Arkham.

Get over it, Shryke. People disagree with you. Some of us see narrative openings. Some of us saw foreshadowing for a non-lethal fall and a faked death. Not everybody agrees with your interpretation. Your "my way or the highway" act is tiresome.

[Shryke]

Pro-Death:

1) the script
2) The novelisation
3) The nolan interview
4) the ending's theme (in the minds of some anyway)

Anti-Death:

1) No one stated straight out "He's dead Jim"
2) Eckhart was signed for 2 movies.

I find your case incredibly dubious.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465273' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.52']3/4 for me. It's still pretty pointless.

Has a writer "Screwed up" if less then 100% of the audience doesn't get every plot point? I certainly don't think so.[/quote]
We can do a thread tally if you like. Why would interviewers be asking questions to solidify what happened to Dent if there wasn't enough of a readership to be interested? Why are you screaming down like 3 different people at once, one of which is m'eh, on the whole thing to prove your point?

While I wouldn't say 100% is needed. We aren't look at numbers close to that. We are batting at 75%, using Dante's ancedotal, even though I would consider #4 claimable by both sides, so now you would be down to about 66%. You would only have 1/30 for me, 100% for yourself and 0% for Paddy. That seems to indicate a whole mess of ambiguity. If you are arguing that there is only thematic integerity, and/or plot integrity for the Dent to be dead, then you are basically stating that Nolan failed to portray that.

[quote]Did you miss the funeral? The speech?[/quote]

I was moved when I saw Gordon's wife crying when she was told he was dead and seeing his unmoving body with a bloody bullet hole in his torso really left me speechless...

[DanteGabriel]

We've already voiced our objections for each point of evidence you find to be so compelling, so I find your method of argument to be incredibly irritating. You're not going to convince me, so I'll end my stake in this argument here.

[Paddy]

DG already covered my response to the memorial which, no, I did not miss, but thanks for the condescension.
As I was getting at earlier, if Dent survived the fall, the next move for the protagonists is still the same. They need to hide the truth of what became of Harvey from the public. If they let it be known he survived, they fail at that, because he's still Two-Face and the public will discover that out [i]real[/i] fast. Instead, they either kill him (out of character for both) or they hide him away and say that he died.
What part of that do you disagree with? (in order to be able to say that the memorial establishes his death).

[quote name='Shryke' post='1465289' date='Aug 1 2008, 16.58']I find your case incredibly dubious.[/quote]
Yeah? I find your refusal to accept that it isn't conclusive and yet agree that it's possible to be amusing.
It's not like the word "conclusive" isn't well-defined.
Also, add to that the fact that the producer has flat out said that the ending is [url="http://movies.ign.com/articles/892/892656p1.html"]"ambiguous enough to suggest that he may still be alive."[/url]
How do you interpret that conclusively?

ETA: Source for that quote from the producer

[Shryke]

[quote name='DanteGabriel' post='1465300' date='Aug 1 2008, 12.03']We've already voiced our objections for each point of evidence you find to be so compelling, so I find your method of argument to be incredibly irritating. You're not going to convince me, so I'll end my stake in this argument here.[/quote]

So there's no point in arguing it basically.
/shrug

[quote]If you are arguing that there is only thematic integerity, and/or plot integrity for the Dent to be dead, then you are basically stating that Nolan failed to portray that.[/quote]

I don't think so. That's really the main reason I find the idea that he's not dead so weird. One of the big points of this series is that Batman refuses to kill. He can't bring himself to kill the Joker, and the Joker calls him on it, multiple times. And this ties straight back to Dent, who he kills by accident/because he had no other choice. Not killing him cheapens this whole point.

[quote]I was moved when I saw Gordon's wife crying when she was told he was dead and seeing his unmoving body with a bloody bullet hole in his torso really left me speechless...[/quote]

I was responding to Paddy saying:"The movie does not establish that Dent is dead."

They establish his death. Just like they establish Gordon's. And then latter they establish that Gordon's not dead.

The people of Gotham certainly think he's dead. The only way he's NOT dead is if Gordan and Batman are forming a conspiracy to hide him away somewhere. Which would be extremely difficult considering the cops were on the scene pretty soon afterwards.

[quote]Also, add to that the fact that the producer has flat out said that the ending is "ambiguous enough to suggest that he may still be alive."
How do you interpret that conclusively?[/quote]

You can apply that to any character in the series who we didn't see die in a way that couldn't be survived. So DuCard and Rachel, just to name major ones.