Paddy Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Brahm_K' post='1464709' date='Aug 1 2008, 03.42']I've seen the movie a few times now, and thinking about it, the idea of Dent being alive seems more and more ridiculous and full plotholetastic. I mean, how do they do it? Dent is lying on the ground when all the cops come in at the end chasing Batman. Even if Gordon was able to get Dent out of sight by himself, without anyone noticing (pretty unlikely) he'd still have to bring him to Arkham... And then what happens there? Would none of the guards or inmates really not notice that half of this mysterious stranger looks remarkably like Gotham's famous DA, who was seen by many (doctors, visitors, cops) to have had half his face burned off? Much simpler and less convoluted to simply tell the cops that Batman killed Dent along with his other "victims." Add to that Jonathan Nolan's comments, the fact that they give Dent a funeral, and that he's not breathing at the end, and things are looking quite deathlike.[/quote] It might be a bit far-fetched, but the movie does not establish that Dent is dead. He could be dead, he [i]could[/i] be alive. Let's say Dent survived the fall, for sure, and was just knocked unconscious. What would have happened differently? Gordon and Batman can't have him running free, or the truth about him that they are so desperate to hide would come out. Either they kill him (which I think we can agree they wouldn't do) or they incarcerate him secretly some way. That "some way" is the difficult, slightly-stretching credibility thing. But it's not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Il Chiarimento' post='1464336' date='Jul 31 2008, 16.12']Favorite Chicago scene:[/quote] There was one shot, high above Upper Wacker along the river, right in the bend near the new Trump Tower that just felt right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1465023' date='Aug 1 2008, 05.50']Upper Wacker[/quote] :stunned: :wideeyed: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1465028' date='Aug 1 2008, 07.52']:stunned: :wideeyed: :lol:[/quote] What? You don't have a Lower and Upper Wacker Drive in your town there, Bonesie? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlot Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1465028' date='Aug 1 2008, 08.52']:stunned: :wideeyed: :lol:[/quote] There's a LOWER WACKER too. Which reminds me of a Chicago joke... There are 3 streets in Chicago that rhyme with vagina: Regina, Paulina and Lunt. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord O' Bones Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Jaxom 1974' post='1465031' date='Aug 1 2008, 05.56']What? You don't have a Lower and Upper Wacker Drive in your town there, Bonesie? :P[/quote] Possibly, but I don't speak Spanish. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='awesome possum' post='1464561' date='Jul 31 2008, 19.49']Dent is not dead.[/quote] 1) The novelization says he's dead 2) The script says he's dead 3) Nolan has said he's dead 4) If he's not dead, the entire point of the end of the movie goes down the shitter He's DEAD. Motherfucking, Stone Cold, 6-Feet in the ground DEAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Kilmore Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Shryke' post='1465087' date='Aug 1 2008, 08.44']1) The novelization says he's dead 2) The script says he's dead 3) Nolan has said he's dead 4) If he's not dead, the entire point of the end of the movie goes down the shitter He's DEAD. Motherfucking, Stone Cold, 6-Feet in the ground DEAD[/quote] Not to argue with you Shryke, but I think you are being way to passionate about it. 1). Never read the book and I would support that the book is another intepretation of the story and may have its deviances. (Just as a movie about a book will have differences) 2). Never saw that in the script 3). While an interpretation of what Nolan said could agree with this, he doesn't come right out and saying it. This gives other interpretations wiggle room 4). I disagree with the last point, others have with as well. I will have to just leave it at that, because my interest in arguing this last point is way out of proportion with your level of energy in discussing that topic I guess, I am surprised that you are basically saying that if Nolan and co are sitting around and come up with a great, revolutionary idea involving Dent as a character in the next movie, they would be stuck with going, "shit man, we killed him off, that's down the crapper." It looks like they left a little enough wiggle room to have him alive; just like if the narrative in the next movie calls for him to be dead they can support that as well. ETA: I dropped some words, I figured they would like to be included too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1465102' date='Aug 1 2008, 14.57']Not to argue with you Shryke, but I think you are being way to passionate about it. 1). Never read the book and I would support that the book is another intepretation of the story and may have its deviances. (Just as a movie about a book will have differences) 2). Never saw that in the script 3). While an interpretation of what Nolan said could agree with this, he doesn't come right out and saying it. This gives other interpretations wiggle room 4). I disagree with the last point, others have with well. I will have to just leave it at that, because my interest in arguing this last point is way out of proportion with your level of energy in discussing that topic I guess, I am surprised that you are basically saying that if Nolan and co are sitting around come up with a great, revolutionary idea involving Dent as a character in the next movie, they would be stuck with going, "shit man, we killed him off, that's down the crapper." It looks like they left a little enough wiggle room to have him alive; just like if the narrative in the next movie calls for him to be dead they can support that as well.[/quote] Good post, Guy. Have you read many novelisations of movies, Shryke? In my experience, they are a very poor source for anything like this. I'm not saying he isn't dead, but the movie definitely does not establish it, and your claim that point of the movie is ruined is pretty thin because, while it works for your interpretation of the movie (and I would say its very likely that your opinion that Dent is dead helped form your interpretation of the movie), other people's interpretations of the movie (like me) work just fine without Dent being dead at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stego Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Killing the Joker would not be out of character for the Dark Knight. This is not Adam West BAM Batman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I think Dent is dead the same way the Hound is dead. Sorry if anyone else already used that analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarGalley Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Stego' post='1465155' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.36']Killing the Joker would not be out of character for the Dark Knight. This is not Adam West BAM Batman.[/quote] I just don't see how you can interpret this Batman that way. In the first movie he doesn't kill the prisoner in his test to enter the League of Shadows because his compassion separates him from his enemies. Ducard/Ras tries to convince him otherwise even if it means Batman killing Ras. Batman still doesn't do so. The only time he comes close to murder is with Gill (the guy who killed his parents), but he never crosses that line. He does live close to it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Nolan: [quote]He's attempting to fight the most hostile criminals without taking life. This is close to a fool's errand but it's why we love him. It's one of the reasons his character is so enduring because of this kind of insane choice he's made, to be so good at what he does that he can save everyone. And to me, and everyone has a different take on how to do this, but the best way to explore that idea is to challenge it. It's too easy to say 'I don't kill people.' We have to see that in action. [b]And to me the paradox is he can't kill the Joker and he isn't trying to kill Harvey Dent, but of course if you're out here doing this, kind of what Alfred says to him in code, if you want to be out here doing this invariably something is going to go wrong. And the paradox at the end, the biting part is that he has to save the Joker because he has a chance to, and Harvey Dent pays the price because he's going to kill an innocent. And it's a conundrum.[/b][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 "Harvey Dent pays the price" sure doesn't sound like "Harvey Dent died." But look, you can say "Harvey Dent is dead" just like you can say "the Hound is dead" or "Vader killed your father, Luke." Harvey Dent may be dead, but Two-Face lives on. I think it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Kilmore Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Shryke' post='1465168' date='Aug 1 2008, 09.46']Shryke bolding stuff that can be interpretted many different ways.[/quote] Prices that work narratively that Dent paid. Dent paid by losing his status Dent paid by losing the woman he loved Dent paid by losing his identity Dent paid by losing his mind and/or Dent paid by dieing. All of those above is a substantial loss to Dent and who Dent is. Nolan could easily have come out and stated he died. He didn't use those words, he left inferances. One leaves inferances because they intend to leave wiggle room and openness to interpretation I am confused at the arguement you are trying to make now. Did Nolan fail in communicating the fact that Dent died? There are substantial amount of people who didn't interpret it as such. I feel that the movie was put together wonderfully, I don't see how Nolan could have flubbed this pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Who's the innocent? Dent? When he falls off the building, Dent is not an innocent any more. Sure, you can say the people he killed had it coming, but he was going to kill Gordon's family if the coin fell that way. If he died, he didn't die an innocent. I see that Guy has said everything else I wanted to say on Dent "paying a price". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Go to a bookstore where you can buy the script. Flip to the end. Read the part where it says his neck is broken and he's dead. Re: The Price Dent Paid Except RIGHT BEFORE THAT, which I also highlighted for a reason he talks about Batman and his unwillingness to kill. Then he talks about the paradox of the whole thing being that while he couldn't kill Joker, Dent "paid the price". (ie - he died) That's why it's a paradox. He couldn't kill the Joker even though he wanted to, but he killed Dent even though he didn't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Shryke' post='1465200' date='Aug 1 2008, 11.06']Go to a bookstore where you can buy the script. Flip to the end. Read the part where it says his neck is broken.[/quote] At this point I'm not going to trust your word that the script unambiguously says his neck is broken and that he's dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Kilmore Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Shryke' post='1465200' date='Aug 1 2008, 10.06']Go to a bookstore where you can buy the script. Flip to the end. Read the part where it says his neck is broken.[/quote] Broken Neck =/= dead. After my car accident and I was hospitalized, I spoke with a guy who had his spine crushed and he survived. Did Nolan flub the end? Plenty of people walked out of that movie thinking Dent was alive, did he screw it up? Editted: Fixed a spelling mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I cleared it up cause I KNEW you'd pull that shit. The script says, roughly "They see him, his neck broken. Dead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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