Babylon 5

[Shryke]

One of the very interesting things about the show's final season is that a number of actors -- Doyle and Boxleitner were two of the main ones -- wanted a sixth season to happen and tried to convince JMS. He stuck to his guns that the story was a five year one and that it was done.

This makes perfect sense though. I mean, back when they were making this show, the idea of telling your story for X seasons and then ending was .... no normal. The actors would have found it odd and been like "This is going great, what's next season gonna be?".

To be honest, I think it is done. There are some small plot holes that need filling - the Telepath Wars, Lennier's fate and how Excalibur saved Earth from the virus - but nothing truly major. The B5 universe is interesting but I think it was tailored a little bit too much towards the specific storylines in the B5 arc, and there's not too many interesting stories that could be told in that universe outside of the arc. The fact that most of the non-arc episodes and all of the stand-alone novels suck donkey balls I think is a good sign of that.

I disagree. Crusade showed hints that there were tons of other interesting stories that could be told. I mean, the Drahk Virus was only the smallest portion of what Crusade was gonna be about.

I'd attribute the non-arc episodes general shittiness to JMS not being that great at writing stand-alones.

[FairyIdiot]

Babylon 5 was one of my all time favs, next to Star Trek Voyager. Really takes your mind away

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Voyager is one of your all time favorites? Seriously? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't think I've ever heard anyone express that sort of view of the show before.

I'd attribute the non-arc episodes general shittiness to JMS not being that great at writing stand-alones.

Yup.

[Shryke]

I have no problem sounding like a dick.

Voyager sucks and you have bad taste if you like it.

[drawkcabi]

Voyager is one of your all time favorites? Seriously? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't think I've ever heard anyone express that sort of view of the show before.

I've heard that opinion quite a few times, not on this board, but elsewhere. I don't agree with it, I'm a DS9 fan, but Voyager is worth existing if soley for the Doctor episodes, which sporadically raised the series out of mediocrity to something better.

[red snow]

I've heard that opinion quite a few times, not on this board, but elsewhere. I don't agree with it, I'm a DS9 fan, but Voyager is worth existing if soley for the Doctor episodes, which sporadically raised the series out of mediocrity to something better.

I'll agree the Doctor was an excellent charater but that's still piss poor for an ensemble cast show. Seven-of-nine was ok but it's hard to separate good character from skintight suit (I was a teenager at the time). Janeway was defined by her shrill voice, Chakotay by his tattoo, and Tuvoc by being a black vulcan and there were three of four other main cast members who did "something". Oh and Neelix, the closest star trek has got to Jar Jar binks. The titles and music were lovely though and and the Borg killer episode was the only story I can really remember. Having the Borg was pretty much an admission that the show's new aliens were failures too. Oddly I gave up on Enterprise after a season and a half but at least that show had a distinguishable and rounded cast.

I suppose the fact that this is a Babylon 5 thread increases the chances of people preferring DS9 over Voyager though.

[Ran]

Never heard the claim of O'Hare being addicted to drugs, but I see it's floating around anonymously and JMS did indeed refute it very strongly (especially the variant that suggested he was raising money to support O'Hare's drug habit).

I did find a quote from Doyle claiming that he thought O'Hare was crazy and gave various odd examples. Doyle's not the surest source of info out there, so I take it with a grain of salt, but it does seem clear from remarks that others have made (Stephen Furst -- who I learned yesterday was one of the producers on the theatrical film, My Sister's Keeper -- and Peter Jurasik, namely) that O'Hare was way too tense about this big break he had as the lead on a show and did not fit in well. I don't think drugs were needed for him to behave poorly under those circumstances, with the pressure. Furst was fairly disparaging of Doyle as well, as I recall, but I think that had to do with Doyle's gung-ho attitude and right-wing politics.

[drawkcabi]

Never heard the claim of O'Hare being addicted to drugs, but I see it's floating around anonymously and JMS did indeed refute it very strongly (especially the variant that suggested he was raising money to support O'Hare's drug habit).

I did find a quote from Doyle claiming that he thought O'Hare was crazy and gave various odd examples. Doyle's not the surest source of info out there, so I take it with a grain of salt, but it does seem clear from remarks that others have made (Stephen Furst -- who I learned yesterday was one of the producers on the theatrical film, My Sister's Keeper -- and Peter Jurasik, namely) that O'Hare was way too tense about this big break he had as the lead on a show and did not fit in well. I don't think drugs were needed for him to behave poorly under those circumstances, with the pressure. Furst was fairly disparaging of Doyle as well, as I recall, but I think that had to do with Doyle's gung-ho attitude and right-wing politics.

I saw Doyle at a convention and while being immensely amusing, the thing I remember most was Doyle asserting that he was having current correspondence with David Koresh (this was about 5 years after Waco).

I'll agree the Doctor was an excellent charater but that's still piss poor for an ensemble cast show. Seven-of-nine was ok but it's hard to separate good character from skintight suit (I was a teenager at the time). Janeway was defined by her shrill voice, Chakotay by his tattoo, and Tuvoc by being a black vulcan and there were three of four other main cast members who did "something". Oh and Neelix, the closest star trek has got to Jar Jar binks. The titles and music were lovely though and and the Borg killer episode was the only story I can really remember. Having the Borg was pretty much an admission that the show's new aliens were failures too. Oddly I gave up on Enterprise after a season and a half but at least that show had a distinguishable and rounded cast.

I suppose the fact that this is a Babylon 5 thread increases the chances of people preferring DS9 over Voyager though.

You never know, there are still B5 fans sore about ST ripping off JMS idea, which there is a lot of circumstantial evidence they did, and Star Trek-izing which is an even worse crime. Also there's the fact the DS9 didn't get really good (for those who like it) until the latter seasons. I don't mind the earlier seasons though, I just recognize they are inferior just like B5 S1 is inferior to the seasons that came afterwards.

I just sit back and enjoy both shows, I can handle the Star Trek feel-good-everything-is-going-to-turn-out-fine philosophy that permeates every series, even DS9, though to a lesser degree, because I've always liked Star Trek. I also enjoy B5's the world/universe is going straight to Hell schtick because it's something different. What I don't like is watching a bunch of shows that are exactly the same in tone and substance, as long as the writing is good, give me variety, up beat, down beat, whatever.

I gave up on Enterprise at pretty much the exact same time as you Red Snow. Then a couple years ago I got back into it by watching the DVD's. The first two seasons were still complete shit. The third season was better and the 4th season was the best ST since DS9. It's a shame it got cancelled just when it was getting good.

Voyager's ensemble was awful, but I can remember most of the Doctor episodes because I enjoyed them so much, the rest of the series is a blur of boring spatial anomolies in just about every episodes.

[oneeye]

Season 3 of Bab 5 is soooooo good.

When G'Kar and Londo are stuck in the elevator together,

And later when civil war on earth breaks out, just wow.

I'm glad I stuck it through the slow season 1, and improving season 2.

[drawkcabi]

Season 3 of Bab 5 is soooooo good.

When G'Kar and Londo are stuck in the elevator together,

And later when civil war on earth breaks out, just wow.

I'm glad I stuck it through the slow season 1, and improving season 2.

"Does anyone hear me?!!!"

"I do!"

"I wish I was dead,"

"So do I,"

Love that episode.

[Ser Warpechowski]

There were some good actors. The two main aliens, the one ambassador with all the hair and the other one with the spots, the Narn, actually seemed to do a decent job.

ROFL

Oh, they joy of watching B5 the first time. I wish I could. And the inocence of not knowing what will happen.

I hope the memory deletion implants come soon.

I guess after one year and a half he knows what we were all talking about.

[JungianQueen]

Oh! A B5 thread. Just my thing. Love the show. It's not for everyone, though. It's more theatrical, imho, than some people are used to. Folks are used to the ADD dialogue where each character blurts out 3-4 words at a time and make the attempt at being witty/clever (to a fault).

It takes time to build. Season 1 is definitely an introductory season. But, once you finish season 5 (and go back to rewatch) you'll see narrative "seeds" planted all over the freakin' place. It's dumbfounding.

Also, with the OP, I'm wondering if they watched episode 1 of Season 1, or the pilot? Both were still clunky, imho, but interesting nonetheless.

I've found that folks who really fall in love with B5 are a certain kind of person: thoughtful, patient, open to the "song of the universe" so to say. It's quite a remarkable and beautiful series. There's nothing out there like it. I'm not sure there ever will be again.

I've heard that DS9 "snagged" some creative mojo from B5, but honestly? I just don't care. I watched DS9 when it was on the air, have forgotten most of it. I did enjoy it, sure. But, I remember every single episode of Babylon 5. That says quite a bit.

[JungianQueen]

ROFL

Oh, they joy of watching B5 the first time. I wish I could. And the inocence of not knowing what will happen.

I hope the memory deletion implants come soon.

I guess after one year and a half he knows what we were all talking about.

It's just amazing, isn't it?

SPOILER: B5

The first time I saw a shadow ship.

The fall of Narn.

The fall of Kosh.

The first glimpse of the whitestar

Vir waving to Morden . . .

Lord Refa's last "run"

Who are you?

What do you want?

The shadow ships flying over Centauri Prime

"There is only one human who has ever survived battle with a Minbari ship . . ."

Marcus (sniff)

Talia holds off a shadow ship

Sheridan blows up Z'Ha'Dum

Ahh... the list goes on . . .

[automne]

About Voyager vs. B5 and "bad taste". I liked Voyager even though B5 is my second best SF series. My favorite is Farscape.

[Gerold Hightower]

There's bit on the DS9 ripoff on Wikipedia:

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine controversy

The pilot episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (DS9) aired just weeks before the debut of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski indicated that Paramount was aware of his concept as early as 1989,[59] when he attempted to sell the show to the studio, and provided them with the series bible, pilot script, artwork, lengthy character background histories, and plot synopses for the first 22 episodes.[60][61] Paramount passed on Babylon 5, but later announced Deep Space Nine was in development after Warner Bros. announced its plans for Babylon 5. Straczynski has stated on numerous occasions that he thinks Paramount may have used his bible and scripts as the basis for DS9's first season.[62][63] On the subject of suing Paramount for infringement, Straczynski indicated he had no intentions to do so, and added:

That we have decided - for the best interests of all - to take a mature, 'let's move forward' approach does not mean that I have to pretend nothing happened. [...] It's on the level of 'Okay, YOU (Paramount) know what happened, and I know what happened, but let's try to be grownup about it for now,' though I must say that the shape-changing thing nearly tipped me back over the edge again. ..... The fact that the two shows were so similar at that time, one a nobody show from nowhere, the other bundled with the STAR TREK name, came within an inch of killing Babylon 5. That's one of the main reasons why it took nearly a period of four months [after the first pilot telefilm] before we finally got the go order for year one, after everybody crunched the ratings, and the demos, and decided to take a chance on it. And even THEN we were told, "The syndie market can't sustain two shows like this; you're gonna get creamed."[64]

[red snow]

There's bit on the DS9 ripoff on Wikipedia:

wow. The thing that amazes me is that there were rumours floating around that JMS was approached to relaunch the Star Trek franchise (before Abrams movied it). If JMS had agreed he would have been as masochistic as Whedon with Fox.

[Gerold Hightower]

JMS seems to be a fan of the Star Trek franchise. After all, he hired Walter Koenig (Chekov in TOS) as a recurring character (Bester) and Gene Roddenberry's wife played a guest role in B5 (Lady Morella).

[red snow]

JMS seems to be a fan of the Star Trek franchise. After all, he hired Walter Koenig (Chekov in TOS) as a recurring character (Bester) and Gene Roddenberry's wife played a guest role in B5 (Lady Morella).

That's clear. He must be a better man than I am because if a studio/show had shafted me as much as he implies paramount did, i wouldn't touch the franchise out of spite. I guess that's why I'd never make it in TV though :)

[Ran]

I don't think JMS was approached, necessarily. I know he and another guy put forward a proposal for relaunching the franchise, however, but Paramount didn't go for it. I thought it was a speculative proposal, but maybe someone over there commissioned them, I don't know.

Bach,

More goodness to come in Season 4. And, yes, there's some good stuff in S5 too, but there's one major plot thread that doesn't really work well, which unfairly colors the reception of all else. Just let it wash over you and enjoy. ;)

[JungianQueen]

Season 5 had wonderful moments. I just think they were a bit overshadowed by "the one major plot thread" that Ran mentions.

SPOILER: B5

I honestly didn't hate Byron as a character or the actor himself. What I loathed were the friggin' telepaths that were in his group. They were absolutely and without a doubt, CREEPY and weird.