Babylon 5

[MinDonner]

I saw one episode of Lexx, once. It was utterly fucking ridiculous. I mean the idea of a living spaceship that feeds on harvested human organs is kind of cool in a macabre way, but when you add in some cheesetastic crazy cannibal lady running around the corridors, plenty of gratuitous boob-shots and almost-rape to titillate the target audience of prepubescent males, and Tim Curry doing his best Jeremy Beadle impression as a malevolent hologram (or something)... it was pretty bad. And that's before I even get onto the Emo Assassin Guy and the ludicrous PhysicsFail of the conclusion...

[red snow]

Speaking about Lexx... I saw the pilot many years ago (10?) and rather liked it. For some reason I never continued watching. Is it any good? Has anyone here seen it? What other series would you compare it to?

Like MinDonner says, I was a teen when I watched it, so found i enjoyed the T&A. I did realise even then though that it was very cheesy. I think/hope some of the bad elements was in parody of sci-fi especially concerning the emo-guy. It's maybe worth a look if you want to try something different but you're not missing much if you don't.

[Ran]

Lexx was ... something else. I can't help but think that they had tongue firmly lodged in cheek for a lot of it. I recall one episode involving a bunch of cannibal rednecks...

It's very, very silly, and generally induces groans rather than laughter. If that's your sort of humor, though, it might be fun.

[PhelanArcetus]

Farscape is on my list of "I need to get and watch this eventually". But I've got a bunch of anime I was given to get through first. And a few other shows on that list.

Lexx, I've seen one episode. On mute. Every year, a friend uses the Walpurgisnacht episode during his Walpurgisnacht party. It appears to involve a vampire, and utterly gratuitous amounts of T&A, and I can't tell if having the sound (or knowing the characters) would help or not.

[Werthead]

-- Are there any perfect series?--

The Wire. State of Play. Ultraviolet. Spaced. They're the only four that come to mind that aren't mini-series (although the latter two only lasted six episodes, but not down to design) where every single episode is top-quality.

Out of long-running series, Deep Space Nine also has a very high hit rate (only maybe two episodes that could be described as 'shit' and three or four more that were pretty dull, the other 172 episodes were good to excellent). I don't think I've seen a 'really bad' episode of Seinfeld, but I haven't seen the last two seasons of that. Rome is also very high quality, maybe taking a couple of episodes to find its feet tonally in the first season but even those first episodes are still pretty good.

[Bronn Stone]

Out of long-running series, Deep Space Nine also has a very high hit rate (only maybe two episodes that could be described as 'shit' and three or four more that were pretty dull, the other 172 episodes were good to excellent).

I'd be really curious as to which were the ones you didn't like. I'd say nearly half the first season was utter crap. Especially, The Storyteller, Move Along Home, If Wishes Were Horses and The Forsaken. But there are four others nearly as bad. And later seasons bring further cringe inspiring visits from Lwaxana Troi.

In fact, until the Dominion War gets going, the series' only truly redeeming plot line was Garak.

[Jon AS]

Out of long-running series, Deep Space Nine also has a very high hit rate (only maybe two episodes that could be described as 'shit' and three or four more that were pretty dull, the other 172 episodes were good to excellent).

I agree with Bronn, DS9 had a lot of dross, especially (but not exclusively) in the early years. B5 has a better pass/fail ratio IMO.

Btw, State of Play does not count as a miniseries? I thought it was the textbook example for that term?

[williamjm]

Speaking about Lexx... I saw the pilot many years ago (10?) and rather liked it. For some reason I never continued watching. Is it any good? Has anyone here seen it? What other series would you compare it to?

A couple of friends of mine are really big fans of Lexx so I've seen the first three seasons. I must admit I'm baffled by their liking for it, it does have some interesting ideas like all the technology being organic or the third season's premise where they're stuck on a pair of linked planets which seem to represent Heaven and Hell, but the characters are annoying, the plots repetitive and it is neither serious enough to work as proper drama or funny enough to work as comedy. The juvenile attempts at humour can also be annoying, the ship's shape being blatantly based on male genitalia, for example. I'd say the pilot you saw is possibly about the best of the first two seasons, the third season is probably better overall and does have a fairly intriguing story arc but it does feel a bit drawn out.

Farscape is a much better series. It did take me a bit of time to get into it and the quality of the episodes could be a bit inconsistent but when it was good it could be very good. Some of the stand-alones where the crew just wander around shouting at each other a lot as weird stuff happens aren't that great, but the story arc episodes tend to be good, particularly the season-ending episodes. It's a pity that it got cancelled and they had to wrap up the story in the Peacekeepr Wars miniseries which was reasonably good but very rushed as they crammed a season's worth of plots into a few hours. Unlike Lexx, it could be very funny at times as well. Thinking about it, I'm a bit tempted to get it on DVD sometime, since it has been quite a few years since I've seen it and I know I missed a lot of season 2.

I agree with Bronn, DS9 had a lot of dross, especially (but not exclusively) in the early years. B5 has a better pass/fail ratio IMO.

I've been rewatching DS9 recently and it is rare that they have a really bad episode (there are exceptions to that, The Storyteller is one example that springs to mind) but the first season in particular had quite a lot of mediocre episodes. I'd say season 2-4 of B5 was more consistent in terms of quality than DS9, maybe DS9 was more consistent than seasons 1 or 5 of B5.

Btw, State of Play does not count as a miniseries? I thought it was the textbook example for that term?

Probably by American standards it would, but 6 hour-long episodes is a fairly standard length for a British TV series.

[Werthead]

State of Play was also supposed to have a second season which classifies it as an ongoing series. However, Shameless took off in a massive way and Abbott thought it was more fun to write that. SoP took a hell of a lot of research and work, and he wasn't so keen to leap back into it. He does keep saying it will happen and the BBC want it to happen and John Simm and Bill Nighy are up for it, it's just a question of waiting until the parts fall into place.

I like the idea behind the The Storyteller and the beginnings of the O'Brien/Bashir relationship is well-done. The actual premise and some of the dialogue is ropey as fuck though. I'm also intrigued by the Bajoran storyline in DS9, the notion of nation-building that arguably B5 didn't explore until the rise of the IA in Season 5. The biggest problem with the Bajoran storyline in Season 2 is Bareil, who is an annoying character and not a great actor (not a Byron-level of miscasting though), but that is instantly redeemed by what the writers did to him when they realised the fans weren't keen.

Bashir turning him into a lobotomised zombie in trying to keep him alive until giving up and killing him. Seemed a bit over-the-top.

If you're not keen on the Bajoran storyline in DS9, that does preclude most of the first two seasons, which I can see making enjoying the series much more problematic.

Since the DS9 rewatch thread was eliminated (just as I was trying to copy the posts for posterity, grr), I can't immediately recall which episodes were the ones I really hated. The one where Quark has a sex-change is the worst episode of the entire series (Profit and Lace), without question. If Wishes Were Horses has some good ideas but the Irish leprechaun thing is quite appalling (and Colm Meaney was really pissed off by what he saw as an Irish stereotype). Move Along Home looks like some rejected ST:TNG episode, but the ending ("No-one was in danger, it was just a game! What, you think we're crazy?") was somewhat subversive by Star Trek standards and the bit where an annoyed-looking Sisko had to do the dance to proceed is quite funny. It also has some good Quark moments, where he's trying to play the game and thinking he's getting people killed and having a nervous breakdown with a furious Odo apparently getting ready to brutalise him. There's also the episode where Bashir is getting old and having some kind of weird hallucinatory thing which was just terrible.

The Lwaxana Troi episodes (and there were only three of them, IIRC) were acceptable in DS9 because they all tended to be based around important moments of character development for Odo, and Majel Roddenberry was actually a very good actress when she was allowed to do something with the character rather than being a kooky free spirit.

[Ran]

I think I watched the whole of DS9's first season, and then sort of lost interest and just caught bits and pieces. But I recall the first season having a lot of fairly mediocre episodes, too. I think it's probably true that the show had relatively few bad episodes -- a cursory look around on the Internet shows six or so episodes regularly named as dire, which is a pretty good ratio all considered -- but I'd guess there's a whole bunch of pretty average episodes in those 172.

[Werthead]

I think I watched the whole of DS9's first season, and then sort of lost interest and just caught bits and pieces. But I recall the first season having a lot of fairly mediocre episodes, too. I think it's probably true that the show had relatively few bad episodes -- a cursory look around on the Internet shows six or so episodes regularly named as dire, which is a pretty good ratio all considered -- but I'd guess there's a whole bunch of pretty average episodes in those 172.

True, and DS9 had a lot more stand-alones than B5, although a lot of those stand-alones are excellent (including I think most of the Hugo-nominated ones like The Visitor and Far Beyond the Stars). The 'torture O'Brien' episodes from each season are usually superb as well. And obviously the core story arc of DS9 doesn't begin until the episode in Season 2 where Quark is trying to set up a trade agreement with a race in the Gamma Quadrant and they keep saying, "Er, we'll have to run this by the Dominion first," and Quark's going, "Who the hell are the Dominion?" It's surprising how early they mention it and then start developing it as this background menace before they finally show up in the S2 finale.

[red snow]

for DS9 I dreaded any episode that featured a holodeck, particularly with Vic Fontaine and became annoyed with the quirky Quark Ferenghi episodes when they tried it more than once. It was a very consistent show overall though - then again if consistency is valued above greatness, then I'd say stargate is fairly hard to beat. In case you don't know, I'd rather a show failed every now and then ratehr than play it safe.

As for Farscape/Lexx, I think Farscape was vastly superior. I was just highlighting that Farscape wasn't unique.

[Arakasi]

Out of long-running series, Deep Space Nine also has a very high hit rate (only maybe two episodes that could be described as 'shit' and three or four more that were pretty dull, the other 172 episodes were good to excellent).

Wow you rate DS9 a lot higher then I do. I feel the first 3 seasons were 2/3 filler and 1/3 good episodes. Later on it picked up when they built into the dominion arc, but it still was ST and they still stuck plenty of filler episodes in. B5 probably does have a higher percentage of shit episodes, but if I'd have to give percentages to shit/mediocre/above average/great B5 would be 10/10/45/35 while DS9 would be 5/40/40/15. Star Trek in general is just too full of boring episodes about Lwaxana, Holodecks and random alien of the week episode to ever maintain consistency. At least when B5 goes shit, they go off the deep end with stuff like Grey 17 and such.

[Shryke]

:agree:

Star Trek is fun and all, but even at it's best (DS9 or TNG) it's still alot of filler. DS9 had better arcs and such, but it was still ST at it's core.

They do, however, do an excellent job of setting stuff up in DS9. As Wert said, it's amazing how hints of the Dominion start getting dropped quite early.

[Durckad]

Wow you rate DS9 a lot higher then I do. I feel the first 3 seasons were 2/3 filler and 1/3 good episodes. Later on it picked up when they built into the dominion arc, but it still was ST and they still stuck plenty of filler episodes in. B5 probably does have a higher percentage of shit episodes, but if I'd have to give percentages to shit/mediocre/above average/great B5 would be 10/10/45/35 while DS9 would be 5/40/40/15. Star Trek in general is just too full of boring episodes about Lwaxana, Holodecks and random alien of the week episode to ever maintain consistency. At least when B5 goes shit, they go off the deep end with stuff like Grey 17 and such.

Agreed... somewhat.

I'd say that DS9 is, consistently, a more quality series than B5 ever was. However, when B5 aimed high and hit the mark, it was excellent, far beyond what DS9 was aiming for (and perhaps, even capable of). Still, B5's standalone episodes were about 95% godawful while some of DS9's better episodes were standalone (The Wire, Duet, Blood Oath, Whispers, Hard Time, Little Green Men, The Visitor for example). I'll take a slew of good filler episodes over a few atrocious filler episodes any day.

Even the first season is not that bad, it's much, much better than tNG's first season and probably better than B5's.

[Arakasi]

I would disagree about DS9 being consistently above. What do people always complain about in B5? They complain about 5-6 episodes in the first half of season 5 and about 5-6 episodes scattered throughout season 1. Starting from about episode 18 or so of season 1 through the final episode of season 4 was a great run of episodes that had maybe 3-4 crummy ones in there (the hilarious Grey 17 being one of them). That is what DS9 could never match and never was able to.

I think too many people remember Sacrifice of Angels and especially In the Pale Moonlight and forgot just how boring and tedious many episodes were. B5 worked because it through its 3 years of greatness it rarely let up and even when they had stories that got away from the main arc the B or C story was tied to it.

[JungianQueen]

Farscape is on my list of "I need to get and watch this eventually". But I've got a bunch of anime I was given to get through first. And a few other shows on that list.

Lexx, I've seen one episode. On mute. Every year, a friend uses the Walpurgisnacht episode during his Walpurgisnacht party. It appears to involve a vampire, and utterly gratuitous amounts of T&A, and I can't tell if having the sound (or knowing the characters) would help or not.

I've been waiting for it to get re-released. I heard they borked up the order for season 1 on the original disks? I can't even get the sucker on Netflix. Maybe some Farscape folks can clue me in on this?

[JungianQueen]

Agreed... somewhat.

I'd say that DS9 is, consistently, a more quality series than B5 ever was. However, when B5 aimed high and hit the mark, it was excellent, far beyond what DS9 was aiming for (and perhaps, even capable of). Still, B5's standalone episodes were about 95% godawful while some of DS9's better episodes were standalone (The Wire, Duet, Blood Oath, Whispers, Hard Time, Little Green Men, The Visitor for example). I'll take a slew of good filler episodes over a few atrocious filler episodes any day.

Even the first season is not that bad, it's much, much better than tNG's first season and probably better than B5's.

I can't think of a single "standalone" episode. Each and every one had deeper material, something that connected to a later episode in some way. =) If you mean less over-all arc, then B5 had a few real "winners" (cough: Grey 17). But, even Grey 17 had its moments--Marcus for one.

[Arakasi]

Yeah Grey 17 was awsomely awful, but the B plot with Marcus vs Neroon was pretty badass.

Edit: The A/B (sometimes C) plot thing was something I feel that really helped B5. Very rarely did they go all in on one plot. (and when they did it usually wasn't good) There was always stuff happening. Star Trek always made their shows about one main thing, with a few pleasent exceptions.

[Shryke]

Aye, I think B5 was very good at doing Half-Arc episodes. So every episode felt like it had something important.

DS9 tended to be all one or all the other.